[Jorge - JRami]

One would think that that there would be allot more than just 40 industry leaders since I think there are many affiliates, perhaps hundreds, that all they do is true ethical affiliate marketing and should be the first ones on any list and forming an association. The industry leaders forming an industry affiliates association should then step back and let those true ethical affiliates that were contacted, publicly post and transparently form the affiliate association.

One would also think that all the ethical OPM's on ABW and those other ethical ones from around the world that have always supported affiliates by remaining ethical be contacted too and made part of a list which was open transparent by affiliates and for affiliates. I would support, but step back myself, an affiliate industry association which was made only by ethical affiliates and invited to form it publicly among themselves, by affiliates and for affiliates only, open and transparent.

I've been waiting for the list and who they are but since it has not been posted or made available yet, just for the record, future reference and friends that wonder:

JRami Consulting is not and has not been made part of any new association, on any list or has been contacted by anyone in any way.

[PetsWarehouse.com]

Originally Posted by Rebecca Madigan

I've been hired to spearhead the initiative to see if we can get a professional association started.
-- Rebecca Madigan

You're not going to get it started this way!

Based on you're intro and the way you went about this speaks volumes of your inability to spearhead anything.

[flamingoworld]

Originally Posted by rematt

It's not a matter of liking or disliking any individual. It's a matter of who the 40 initial board members are and what they bring to the table. Right now liking them isn't an issue. I don't know who they are.

Connie, please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad you're not representing the organization. Because so far you've done more to make me not want to join than anything else. You're making this sound like a social clique. It's not. It's supposed to be a professional industry organization and I don't need to "like" the other members.

I hate my accountant. He's the biggest ahole you'll ever meet. He's totally obnoxious but I wouldn't replace him if you paid me. Why? Because the man gets the job done, he works magic with numbers. So I don't care about the personalities of the board members. I care whether they can work the magic or not.

I also care about their ethics. And no, before you even think about saying it, ethics are not subjective. There are practices that we all agree are detrimental to the industry, and I want to know if anyone on that board is engaging in those practices.

Right now I don't have enough information to make any kind of decision. I don't think that it's too much to ask for a little of the promised "inclusiveness and transparency".

-rematt

You in many ways just made my point for me. A lot of the issue has been that people are afraid of who will be in this group. We don't know yet, I don't think they know yet. They got together a week ago to get things started. Give it time. No one is asking anyone to pay out any money or join yet. I am sure when they know more they will tell us more. And maybe they don't want to put the names of the nominees out there because the nominees don't want their names out there. Unless chosen, if I were a nominee I wouldn't give my permission for them to tell everyone that I was nominated. And it sounds like those chosen initially will have a short term, so that people can be voted out quicker at the beginning. This is all new, why do we have to be so negative right away? This is why so many times previous attempts have failed.

And it seems funny for so many here hiding behind fake names and anonimity want full disclosure.

Billy - list of attendees:
http://www.revenews.com/brookschaaf/...y-association/

I am willing to be patient a bit, let them get more info out there, I am sure there are many things they can't answer because they don't have the answers yet. These people also have jobs, their focus isn't 100% doing this, not yet anyways. They have bills to pay and they aren't getting paid for this.

I am always willing to give people a chance, not judge immediately, not shoot down every idea I didn't think of or that I am not in charge of.

I don't see it as a clique, we don't know who will all be in it yet. ABW is a clique. So it seems to me as I said before, unless it is all ABW many here won't be happy no matter what.

[rematt]

Originally Posted by flamingoworld

And it seems funny for so many here hiding behind fake names and anonimity want full disclosure.

I'll address that if/when it ever becomes relevant. But using your real name is also no guarantee of integrity. Just ask Bonnie and Clyde.

But if you're telling me that questioning the composition of this organization will doom it to failure, then it probably isn't ready for prime time.

Originally Posted by flamingoworld

A lot of the issue has been that people are afraid of who will be in this group. We don't know yet, I don't think they know yet.

I'll repeat. DAMN STRAIGHT. I want, no I NEED to know who dare deem themselves the spokesperson for the affiliate. What are their ethics? What is their business philosophy? CAN I TRUST THEM TO DO WHAT"S RIGHT FOR THE INDUSTRY AND FOR ME? The problem is that I can't answer any of these questions. The fact that you had to use 2 separate phrases above speaks volumes. "We don't know and they don't know." As long as there is a we and they, we've already failed (and so have they).

Connie, don't get me wrong. Read my past posts. I'm sick of the crap in this industry and have often referred to it as the Wild West. I've also asked the question "who's the voice for the affiliate?". I'm all for taming that West and I would love to see a organization that would provide some amount of order and speak for all of us. However I would like to see any new organization have a chance to succeed, if it fails it will likely be years before anyone will seriously entertain the idea of another organization. And taking the elitist, cliquish, exclusionary track that this one has started out on, it's dooming itself. Will they tame the Wild West, hell for all I know they created it in the first place.

I just want more information. I don't know about you, but I haven't blindly followed anyone since I was 14 years old and that, though fun, was ultimately a mistake.

-rematt

[Haiko de Poel, Jr.]

I don't see it as a clique, we don't know who will all be in it yet. ABW is a clique. So it seems to me as I said before, unless it is all ABW many here won't be happy no matter what.

Only nominees can nominate other nominees ... That's not a clique?

Please hand me that dictionamanary ...

clique
Main Entry: clique
Pronunciation: \ˈklēk, ˈklik\
Function: noun
Etymology: French Date: 1711 :
a narrow exclusive circle or group of persons;

~45K deep isn't a narrow exclusive group, ABW is not a clique.

[Rolet]

I am at a complete and total loss as to why any new forming organization/association would be so hush hush about the nomination process, the nominees, and so many other things....

Any GOOD association has to start with many roles:
An Executive Director - who is governed by the board
A treasurer - who is voted in
A secretary - again voted in
A board - that should have a make up reflective of those they are supposed to be representating, that has been nominated by the members.

Yes there should be some sort of a fee for memberships, but before fees are collected, a mission statement needs to be written and input should be gathered from every source possible, but most importantly a list of criteria for members and board members should be written as well.

For instance, (again remember I am heavily involved in politics, and sit on several boards, so I am purely using my experience here) but in order for me to be a board member of one the organizations whose board I sit on, I had to have certain qualifications, like where I lived, party affiliation, gender, voting record, member of organization for so long, and in good standing, no ethical issues concerning my past or present, and a few others....but basically not one organization I belong to doesn't have a criteria for board members.

Again, I am completely blown away by the utter unprofessionalism of this, the lack of transparency, the inability for anyone to step up and just put it out there.

Ok I have tried to stay out of this thread, and now I have stated my piece and I am stepping back again.

[Howard Gottlieb]

Very interesting discussion.

I think it would be very helpful if someone would clearly post a specific list of the tangible things an association like this could accomplish.

Is the vision for it to be predominantly a political action group? Or is it to police the industry? If its main purpose is the later I think everyone is wasting their time.

Heck legitimate players argue over whether other legitimate models should even be compensated at all. We can't even agree on which click should prevail.

[PetsWarehouse.com]

One idea to consider here at the forum level is to set the parameters of what the mission is of such a group.

Then spell out how that will be accomplished.

We have about a month and a half before the Summit.

A meeting should be setup there to take this to second base.

[Daniel M. Clark]

Originally Posted by PetsWarehouse.com

One idea to consider here at the forum level is to set the parameters of what the mission is of such a group.

Then spell out how that will be accomplished.

We have about a month and a half before the Summit.

A meeting should be setup there to take this to second base.

Are you volunteering to start an organization? Because the one being discussed doesn't have a presence here. We can talk here all we want; it won't have much of an effect on what they're doing over there.

I say this not to take a shot at you, but to point out that there is a fundamental communication breakdown between the members here and the people that are attempting to put an association together.

I'm predicting at this point that the association will fail, and here's why:

Like I said, there's a lack of communication. They haven't posted a lot here, but we haven't posted any comments in their blog, either. So here we sit, talking about what they should and should not do, and building up our expectations of what the association should and should not be. When the association doesn't turn out to be perfect, according to the standards that we have unilaterally decided upon here, we're going to trash the association to the point of breaking it down.

Mark my words - unless there is a real attempt at communication (and not just demanding that they come to us, it has to be two-way), this is going to end really, really badly.

[PetsWarehouse.com]

No I'm not proposing to start one on my own.

The lame attempt started by Rebecca who has now not responded in a while may not work in all probability.

But let's face it, ABW has critical mass as a gathering place for affiliate marketing.

So the group should get it's roots right from here at ABW,
talk here, meet at the summit.


.

[sfcom]

Originally Posted by HecticDMC

...Like I said, there's a lack of communication. They haven't posted a lot here, but we haven't posted any comments in their blog, either. So here we sit, talking about what they should and should not do, and building up our expectations of what the association should and should not be. When the association doesn't turn out to be perfect, according to the standards that we have unilaterally decided upon here, we're going to trash the association to the point of breaking it down.

Mark my words - unless there is a real attempt at communication (and not just demanding that they come to us, it has to be two-way), this is going to end really, really badly.

That's why I suggest using an online meeting solution, such as dimdim or webex. Heck, they might even significantly reduce the licensing costs if the org gives them the proper exposure. Not everything can happen one character at a time in a forum or on a blog.

Affiliates need voices, I say let them use their actual voice. Think about it, 95% of the talk about affiliate marketing by affiliates is in a letter by letter environment. We are people. People talk. I understand the point of making things indexable, but maybe transcripts could somehow be done.

-sfcom

[Boom or Bust]

I would like to see how this new org will play out. I'm not convinced that ethical affiliate marketing will be damaged by the formation of the PMA, as best (and most profitable) practices will probably rise to the top regardless. If they don't, a lot of potential members will be turned off and the org will fail. It makes no sense for them not to play to the huge ABW population, because without our support it's likely futile. That said, the founders of such an org have the right to build it however they want and probably no amount of our haranguing will change their direction.

The biggest concern I have is that the merchant/affiliate relationship would be altered in a non-beneficial way [from the affiliate's point of view]. But when you consider that the whole purpose of affiliate marketing is to produce sales/profits for merchants, we'll have to be open to adjusting to change in that direction. If we balk too much the merchant may decide that we're not worth it, and then where are we?

I think it would serve our purposes well for Haiko to accept the invitation thereby giving this community a voice in the startup phase of the org.

[John Jupp]

It's not perfect but we have this in the UK:

http://www.iabuk.net/en/1/home.html

All may be delegates. All may stand for election. Candidates drawn from different sectors including affiliates.

No skulduggery. Meetings open to anyone including non members.

All minutes produced and topical notes posted on the main UK affiliate forum.

Representatives include business, agencies, networks and affiliates.

[bcwaller]

Nobody will ever be asked to pay for a membership until everything is defined and out in the open. It may appear as if things are being hidden, but in reality things are not yet defined. That is why there is a survey to get input and an idea of the constituencies.

There is no narrow exclusive clique, as Haiko and many other ABW members who have already been nominated may nominate others. Why not use this thread to tell us who you think needs to be part of this?

It is the board that is being formed that will be making the decisions on how things will work and the policies that the organization will have. We know that the small group of us cannot make all the decisions and take everyone's point of view into account. Why not be part of this and influence it instead of complaining about what might happen or who you know or don't know. We all have names, search and you will find out a lot about us.

[bcwaller]

Originally Posted by John Jupp

It's not perfect but we have this in the UK:

http://www.iabuk.net/en/1/home.html

All may be delegates. All may stand for election. Candidates drawn from different sectors including affiliates.

No skulduggery. Meetings open to anyone including non members.

All minutes produced and topical notes posted on the main UK affiliate forum.

Representatives include business, agencies, networks and affiliates.

You are describing the same idea as this association. How did they start? Did they go public before they existed or did they have a very small group that formed and then opened it up for elections? Of course anyone can join, just pay as little as £550. I anticipate a far lower price point for the individual membership.

Once formed, there will be full elections, proper bylaws, open meetings, equal representation and more. That is the goal. Who wants to be part of the solution?

[Robert Drumm]

Originally Posted by bcwaller

There is no narrow exclusive clique, as Haiko and many other ABW members who have already been nominated may nominate others. Why not use this thread to tell us who you think needs to be part of this?

I'll bite. Here's my starter list for those who should be in on the ground floor:

-Haiko
-Brian Littleton
-At least one from CJ, LS, or Performics
-Missy, Shawn, or both
-Several affiliates ranging from "Super" to somewhat new. No preference or suggestions but I'm sure that could be filled in fairly easy.
-A couple OPM's representing a variety of merchants both big and small...again, no preference.


That's a solid start and I'm sure all received an invitation already.

Bob

[IOWNIE]

Many good points are made above by I have a different take on why an association such as this will have its problems:

- Be careful what you wish for because it will probably come true. Point: THere is a reason why this type of deal has failed in the past and is getting off to a bad start here. It needs ONE leader. Somone to take ownership of it. And that position will be costly to that person in both time and money. iAffiliate.org might come about someday but can anyone really blame Haiko if he didn't want to do it? WHY WOULD HE? Other than because he knows that if he doesn't probably someone else will and it could tap into his marketshare - I can't think of ANY reasons why he would personally want to take on such a HUGE and ENORMOUS responsibility knowing how many people he will not be able to please regardless of how good of a job he does at it.

- Nature of this business. Most affiliates are virtual and NOT transparent. Leaders of an association MUST be transparent to succeed. Income, history, experience, the good the bad the ugly will surface and it will be very difficult to find someone who really wants to put themselves out there for public scrutiny that no doubt will follow. Where is the reward? Where is the pay? Volunteers, Board Members have perks but rarely will they outweigh the actual time and effort put into it.

- The New Factor. Why hasn't one already been created? Because there really isn't a NEED for one. Who really wants to try to create a rulebook or guidelines that many will not have to follow without pentalty? Who cares if there is a governing body of the affiliate world when ANYBODY can become an affiliate and make their own rules up. We have all seen affiliate forums like ABW come and go - WHY? Because they are too hard to recreate something that has already been created and serves its purpose well. Do any of us line up to be the first person to try the new network? NO - we all sit back and wait....not willing to exhaust our time in trial and error. This NEW assoc. will be just that - we will all wait and tip toe into the water making sure the temperature is just right before diving in. Tough to get new members that way.

- Fraud/Exposure. People will be exposed to who they really are. The opinionated ones will continue to be opininated but the minute you ask them to actually do something on behalf of the new organization these will be the FIRST people in line to say NO. Their TRUE self will be exposed as the association will start having stricter guidelines and criteria to belong - and THEY will find out that THEY are not who they have been pretending to be. Imagine if you were nominated and one of the CRITERIA to establish CREDIBILITY was to do a credit check, or provide the last 5 years of your tax returns? Watch how many "successful" affiliate marketers gracefully find a reason to not want to participate all of a sudden! Afterall, would I personally want to join an association if I knew that the Board or even just ONE member just got out of a bankrupcty? People remain non-transparent in this business - and there is a good reason why. People will be much more comfortable remaining behind the protection of a safe freindly rule-free ( for the most part ) environment like this forum to get their affiliate fix for the day.

- Dues. Paying the dues regardless of how inexpensive it might be - even if it was only $25 a year - if the payee doesn't like whos running it or disagrees with the board taking their annual meeting at a warm beach in the winter - THEY WILL NOT PAY. They will ask themselves a few questions when renewal time comes - WHATS IN IT FOR ME? WHAT DID I GET OUT OF THIS OVER THE LAST YEAR? CAN I GET THE SAME THING BY NOT SPENDING MY $25? With this forum AS IS and the Affiliate Summit which is a costly venture for most to attend - do we reaaly have enogh time and energy to invest in yet another thing?

I still think the ANSWER is: Tweek ABW. Offer a paid and non-paid version. Run the paid version on a facebook/ning like social networking software and have the Association form ORGANICALLY over time and not by trying to quickley invite 40 "special" people to the table. Should Haiko take on the enormous task of claiming ownership of this I believe it will have a good chance to succeed pending the ousting of certain self-appointed, fraudulent, entitled by time onlly leaders who must be exposed before the new entity is formed

But then again.....what do I know.....

I'm an entrepreneur not an affiliate marketer. I don't make alot of money in this business yet and it has been in noway because it was lacking an Association. Because of ABW I have learned.....and learned alot! The greatest thing I learned though is be careful who you get your advice from as people are not always as they appear to be.
And this fact is what will make or break an Affiliate Marketing Association.

[John Jupp]

Originally Posted by bcwaller

You are describing the same idea as this association. How did they start? Did they go public before they existed or did they have a very small group that formed and then opened it up for elections? Of course anyone can join, just pay as little as £550. I anticipate a far lower price point for the individual membership.

Once formed, there will be full elections, proper bylaws, open meetings, equal representation and more. That is the goal. Who wants to be part of the solution?

Affiliates are basically anarchic. Never agree on anything. It was the agencies who got things rolling. They then brought in the networks and major blue chips. Affiliates were kept informed and then invited too. Affiliates tried setting up one from the affiliate perspective but they can not agree on everything as the industry is too diverse and a voice was needed to speak for online marketing...not just the affiliate channel. Particularly with the politicians bent to keep introducing legislation without proper consultation because they believe that's what they should do.

Now the industry association has the ear of the Confederation of British Industry, can go head to head against politicians and anyone including affiliates can be on the board.

I didn't get what I was offered, but a rival candidate for Chair wanted to bring me in as a Consultant. Maybe next year. The UK affiliate forum has a section for the IAB and most IAB members are active on the forum.

[HazelB]

I think Michael Coley should be nominated.

[Trust]

Originally Posted by John Jupp

Affiliates are basically anarchic. Never agree on anything. It was the agencies who got things rolling. They then brought in the networks and major blue chips. Affiliates were kept informed and then invited too. Affiliates tried setting up one from the affiliate perspective but they can not agree on everything as the industry is too diverse and a voice was needed to speak for online marketing...not just the affiliate channel. Particularly with the politicians bent to keep introducing legislation without proper consultation because they believe that's what they should do.

Now the industry association has the ear of the Confederation of British Industry, can go head to head against politicians and anyone including affiliates can be on the board.

I didn't get what I was offered, but a rival candidate for Chair wanted to bring me in as a Consultant. Maybe next year. The UK affiliate forum has a section for the IAB and most IAB members are active on the forum.

With the UK and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the networks over there are more anti-adware then over here, much different. I remember past threads here where people have said CJ UK has no adware, while the one in the U.S. does. Threads like -

"All the major uk networks have now publicly stated they won't work with adware/spyware companies, with the exception of TradeDoubler who have an adware Addendum which I think has more holes in it that the old cj code of conduct."

http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum20/2853.htm

Is all that accurate, wasn't quite sure? Also remember reading over in the UK forums and Malcolm (buy.at) posted over there with Buy.at being a major affiliate network over there and being parasite free. Always thought the UK had it a little more together as far as that. I think it's much easier to work with somebody when they're more on the same page.

I'm still wondering what exactly the goal is of the association. If it's still not clearly defined or if that comes later.

Is it to set guidelines or good practices for affiliates, merchants.

Does it want to "police" things.

Does it want a lobbyist or some kind of PR person for things like the NY tax.

General education.

Will there be a lawyer on tap to sue some people when needed. And how would that work if one party in the association wanted to go after another.

So I'm still not clear on that, the intent. Is it all of that, some of that, something else, what? I guess what Rolet was talking about with a mission statement.

edit, nevermind. Just read on the site, that still needs to be determined, what the focus of the association should be. That needs to be figured out.

[loxly]

Originally Posted by bcwaller

It is the board that is being formed that will be making the decisions on how things will work and the policies that the organization will have. We know that the small group of us cannot make all the decisions and take everyone's point of view into account. Why not be part of this and influence it instead of complaining about what might happen or who you know or don't know. We all have names, search and you will find out a lot about us.

Brad if there were a clear mission statement that would help. Does the group have an idea of the mission? That is one of the questions that keeps popping up that has people nervous. I think it would be difficult to do factfinding if you don't have vision of where you want to be at all.

I think the people that are being seen as "complaining" are just not communicating clearly or are not being understood, especially because the questions that are being asked aren't being answered. Maybe you don't have all the answers, but since the questions are being raised, staying involved in the discussion could alleviate a lot of anxiety.

When a group of people takes the lead in something as big as this, they need to prepare to be scrutinized and their motives questioned. As I stated, I think that this has been handled poorly by the organizers and consequently the lashback is happening. There are more people that had they known what was going to be discussed in Camarillo would have made the effort to be there. Whether they would or could be a part of it we'll never know, because they weren't asked to attend and give input.

[Haiko de Poel, Jr.]

Originally Posted by loxly

There are more people that had they known what was going to be discussed in Camarillo would have made the effort to be there. Whether they would or could be a part of it we'll never know, because they weren't asked to attend and give input.

I specifically know of three!!!

4/13 Brook posted http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=88271&highlight=camarillo that was five days before the dinner ... not a single mention of the topic there.

Odd thing though ... he's not posted a word about the meeting here, yet he's very vocal on Revenews about it ... Go Figure, I sure as hell can't figure it out. Oh wait ... he posted today ...

Rebecca launched http://www.performancemarketingalliance.com/ thought it doesn’t seem to have comments. Right now there is no “official” forum. Which, as Wayne indicated, is sort of useful in some ways. I’d suggest commenting at ReveNews, as it will continue to be an unofficial center of action.

There ya have it ... the center of action is there ... I guess we are lucky Brad is appeasing the 45,000 members here.

You can't make this sh!t up!!!!!

Join Now!

[Haiko de Poel, Jr.]

POI - 45mins from Santa Barbara to Camarillo, all the Ex CJers didn't just happen to show up.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=e...,0.711365&z=11

[loxly]

Exactly. I emailed asking about the dinner and got a one word response. No one indicated there was a meeting going to be held that affected the industry.

Brook has a forum here at ABW and is not coming here to discuss this. I am confused and they are mad that their motives are being called into question. ??? All of a sudden we are all the enemy over here? And Revenews is the center? Since when?

Sorry, I guess that makes me one of the complainers now.

[Kevin]

The above not withstanding, I think it's in our best interest to keep a close eye on this, and be involved in its formation in some way. I have to read a bit more before I comment on it further.