[bedelman]

I haven't written anything about Ebates on my main web site recently. True. I don't generally post new articles on old subjects. I only wrote one piece in 2005 about affiliate fraud via spyware, and only one in 2004. ( 2005: http://www.benedelman.org/news/091405-1.html . 2004: http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/180-affiliates ) That doesn't mean it's not an ongoing and important issue. Anyone who thinks an issue is over because I haven't written about it recently is not thinking carefully about the way the world works.

Meanwhile, my Affiliate Summit slides (intended to be an overview of spyware-type issues facing affiliates and affiliate managers, and therefore necessarily broad in scope) absolutely did mention Ebates. See slides 27 to 32. My oral remarks (captured on video linked from my presentations page) say even more about Ebates.

It's just not true that I'm going soft on Ebates. Quite the contrary.

And my video, showing nonconsensual installations of Ebates, is authentic and trustworthy. No one has said anything the contrary, Haiko, though if you'd like to make an actual allegation, I stand ready to respond.

[bedelman]

The video has not been "doctored." The video substantially reflects what I actually saw on screen when testing a software exploit that installed Ebates on my PC, without my consent.

I gather Haiko's "doctored" complaint refers to black marks seen in some sections of the video. For my own reasons, I decided to black out certain materials within the video. That's not my ordinary practice, but it was the approach I choose here. I have no comment as to what I blacked out or why I did so.

The video is authentic. It accurately depicts all relevant aspects of what I saw on screen. It leaves no room for doubt that Ebates was installed on my test PC without my consent. It may leave some doubt as to what I blacked out and why, but that's irrelevant to the matter at hand. Fact is, the video is quite persuassive -- it shows and proves Ebates' then-existing nonconsensual installations.

[bedelman]

You seem to have some kind of conspiracy theory, Haiko. Can you tell us all what it is? Explicitly, without confusing allusions?

Fact is, there's just no conspiracy here. I observed Ebates installed on my test PC without consent. I made a video showing what I observed. For my own reasons, I also chose to cover selected other content also occurring in that video -- content that truly is irrelevant to understanding, confirming, and proving that Ebates was installed nonconsensually. The video is persuassive, and it shows what I say it shows.

it was your intro into Alessandro

I take this to be an allegation that I work for Ebates. Nothing could be further from the truth. I do not. I would not accept such work if it were offered. To the contrary, I have remained critical of Ebates. My Affiliate Summit presentation criticized Ebates both for installation methods and for operation once installed; I said these practices risked tricking users and risked claiming commissions need not pay. I stand by those claims. Those are not the claims of someone working for Ebates.

Enough! If others want to participate in conspiracy theories, so be it. But I'm going to walk away from this back-and-forth banter with you, Haiko.

[Rexanne]

Hey you guys ... get a room! ;-)

[Donuts]

This happened to me once, but I just kicked her in the shin.
:-)

[Sabina Richardson]

I disagree with the harsh words towards Ben. As an AM and Ecomm Mgr at a major corporation I have little resources or man-hours to audit all my affiliates to the extent that I should. I cannot set up a "lab" of machines to test the practices of all the affiliates in the universe to build my program.

If Ben wasn't doing what he was doing, most of us would have NO EVIDENCE of what was going on - and would be at the mercy of speculation and our network reps. I feel like his work was influential in regards to the network action taken against affiliates using parasiteware.

Regardless, the parasiteware issue will continue to be a problem - as more merchants become responsible for affiliate behavior and bear the brunt of litigation and fines on behalf of our partners - we'll be forced to be more particular about who we'll work with. Our companies as a whole will have to develop policies for parasiteware, spyware, adware and spam that we will have to consider when working with any vendors company-wide - not just in the online marketing arena.

The aspect of this whole debate that I find most frustrating is the response of my network reps when I ask about affiliates who are prominent in the whisper campaigns about parasiteware. You'd think that they would at least be reading the same material I read - if just to respond to questions like mine. I expect them to be experts, advising me on the latest in the industry - it's sad when this kind of thing is news to them. Although they perhaps are feigning ignorance.

In any case I appreciate the debate on the issue. It's good to see there is a discussion because there can be no change without it......

Sabina

[Zeus]

Welcome Sabina
Glad to see an AM not listening too closely to our networks and frustrated by the response of the network reps.

[Sabina Richardson]

I guess I should have introduced myself first. I'm the forum equivalent of a "long time listener, first time caller".

As someone working in the AM industry I am just trying to make the best decisions and be proactive, but it's not easy.

I've seen numerous posts accusing merchants of being weak for relying only on their network's parasite policy - but, in my position, to develop a company policy within an organization when the scope of the issue is foreign to most of my colleagues is not easy.

I think the most important thing is that we all start reaching our own conclusions based on all the voices speaking on the issue and not just the ones that are easiest to hear (read networks).

Ben, you are a law school grad (Harvard Law, no less), interested in writing a boilerplate parasiteware policy that merchants can use for a nominal fee? JOKE.

[bedelman]

interested in writing a boilerplate parasiteware policy that merchants can use for a nominal fee? JOKE.

I'm not sure why this is a "joke." I don't think it should be considered a joke; to the contrary, I think drafting such a policy is entirely sensible. Lots of merchants draft custom program rules, which they call "merchant-specific additional terms" (or similar). I've actually helped some merchants with this from time to time. I have some stanard language on file, so it doesn't take long to customize this for a particular merchant's requirements. Email or PM if this is of interest. Though I think many folks can write these policies themselves, without need of assistance from me or anyone else.

[zendozen]

I thought it was open season only on parasites?

This is why I don't really like to participate in forums where personal feeling get in the way of goals. I have kept my posts focused on my goals and left the "who, what, when, and where" about myself out of the posts. I have always felt that a cool head will always prevail and that you should not react, but think and act. (something I live by)

But anyway I am getting off the topic and my goals. I want to make more money as an affiliate and the only way I can do that is to choose the best programs for me. This site has been helpful in that regard but only to a point. There seems to be as does happen an many communities (online or otherwise) an elitism here. I am sure there are a lot of people that read this forum but do not post for that reason alone.

Until all voices are important then none are. A public attack in a forum is not conductive to anything productive and only leads to, well, a bad taste in your mouth. If Ben is suspected of wrong doing then there are probably hundreds of ways to handle it that have a bit more respect and consideration.

If you read all my posts I have tried to do only one thing, organise affiliates. When you are up against companies that have an almost unlimited budget for programmers, sales, PR, and of course spin then you are at a disadvantage.

I was hoping to find help and gain an advantage here, not a circus.

[UncleScooter]

-sigh

[ecomcity]

Regardless of who's shining the spotlight on the BHO's and their cybercriminal partnerships and the monitizing enablers, the media and compromised consumers seek breaking news. No doubt the FBI -FTC -US Congress and State Attorney Generals are following the money trails and pressuring the enablers, as well as the perps. Ben, more then anyone else, has the media ear and actually testifies at court cases. The fear factor alone makes him effective in getting the rats to scurry for cover.

They can run, hide or try to lay blame where ever, but at the end of the day they have to cough up their bad actor partners to escape criminal action. As some new posters pointed out the actions of the networks harboring the thieves is ought right fraudulant.... soon to be criminal.

Botnet Hacker Pleads Guilty

Man could face 25 years in prison for selling botnets to spammers and adware distributors.

Elizabeth Montalbano, IDG News Service
Tuesday, January 24, 2006
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,124472,00.asp

[vaisg]

Sometimes I wonder if it really matters at all.

The new affiliates that join a network get disheartened and give up after sending hundreds and thousands of clicks to merchants and not getting any sales due to these parasitic activities. The network and the merchants are the one that lose out. I have seen so many webmasters talking about how bad affiliate programs are and why they are only joining for pay-per-click programs instead.

Its a pity the trust between merchants, networks and affiliates are compromised this way.

[Trust]

The networks don't lose out on parasitic activities. Parasites turn what otherwise would be free traffic to a lot of merchants into commissionable traffic and the network gets their cut of that. That's why they push them on merchants. Example: Most people know Best Buy and if they want to shop there, they will just type in bestbuy.com in the address bar. Once the affiliate manager lets in some parasites, those direct type ins which used to be free traffic as well as their newsletters, natural SERPS etc, now all become commissionable. The major U.S. networks have been the biggest enablers of parasites, letting them break network rules and blaming it on glitches and technology.

[Haiko de Poel, Jr.]

... and if certain people say xyz parasite is an "old case" it doesn't make it so.

Because that company may be redirecting off the organic traffic / direct type in or SERP click that would / could overwrite an existing affiliate link. The problem obviously is that the merchant's cookie is never ending with such technology and that affiliates could / may be loosing out, but networks and certain Managers allow this.

[SSanf]

Criminy! Wha'd I miss? MUST I read ABW all day long instead of making pages to see the really good stuff?

I feel so deprived!

[ecomcity]

Harvard Univ teams up with England's Oxford university to bring the 300 Million voices of those targeted by "BadWare" operators into the frey. The potential outcome will Dwarf previous efforts to muzzle the greed drive Adwhores operating under the guise of pay-per-performance marketing.

http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp...873&cat_id=582
___________________________________
A new website, www.StopBadware.org, has been launched, where Internet users will be able to check to see if programs they want to download are badware, and alert others to the malicious programs they have encountered.

StopBadware.org will spotlight the companies that make millions of dollars by tricking Internet users to download malicious spyware, adware and malware programs they don't want. The multi-year initiative will empower consumers to fight back against badware. It is being supported by companies, including Google, Lenovo and Sun Microsystems. Consumer Reports WebWatch, a grant-funded project of Consumers Union, has agreed to a pro-bono role as special consumer adviser"......
http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp...873&cat_id=582

.... "Whether spyware, incessant pop-ups or other obtrusive programs, badware today plagues millions of people by turning their computers into machines to spy on them and steal their data. Unlike viruses and worms, badware becomes embedded in a computer by downloading games or software, or just by visiting certain websites.

www.StopBadware.org will publish short user-friendly reports on downloads they have identified as badware, as well as more detailed academic studies on the problem of badware. It will publicize the names of companies that make up the most insidious purveyors of badware, and shed light on how they make money through unethical marketing practices.

The site will seek horror stories from Internet users who have been adversely affected by badware, and it will publish these stories to raise awareness of badware's harmful effects."
____________________________
We can fight back!

StopBadware.org is a "Neighborhood Watch" campaign aimed at fighting badware. We will seek to provide reliable, objective information about downloadable applications in order to help consumers make better choices about what they download onto their computers. We aim to become a central clearinghouse for research on badware and the bad actors who spread it, and become a focal point for developing collaborative, community-minded approaches to stopping badware.

To do this, we need your help. If you have a story to tell, we urge you to tell us by clicking here. If you have technical skills and would like to give us more detailed information to help us in our research, you can do so by filling out the form here.
http://www.stopbadware.org/home/help

Great site that needs the input and support of the ABW community
http://www.stopbadware.org/home/reports
.."Our research involves comparing downloadable applications against these guidelines in our lab, using our judgment and a transparent methodology, and publishing our findings. We welcome input about these guidelines from any interested party. We intend to update these guidelines periodically. Our intention is for our research to help empower consumers, to protect against deceptive, unfair and harmful practices, and to promote innovation in legitimate internet applications that abide by these guidelines. "

[Leader]

Originally Posted by SSanf

MUST I read ABW all day long instead of making pages to see the really good stuff?

It's probably more strategic to just keep ABW open in another window, and check it after every 10 words you type on a new page, or after every batch of WM pages made...

Although, if you want to be SURE to see everything, you'll just have to sit here and keep hitting "Refresh!" And don't forget, ABW doesn't close, so "all day" isn't good enough

[ecomcity]

The Hidden Money Trail....Those programs that pelt you with ads and bog down your PC are financed by some of America's largest companies.
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,122495,00.asp

... www.stopbadware.org
Q: What happens to the data I submit? What are you going to do with it?
A: Your data will be recorded in an anonymized database. Once we have enough data, our researchers will start poring through it so that they can confirm their suspicions about the worst offenders, and eventually spot trends and patterns, allowing us to put the spotlight on new forms of badware even more quickly. The database will also be made available to the public, including nonprofits, companies, government officials, and consumers, so that the rest of the world can pitch in and make their own valuable contributions to everyone's knowledge of badware.


Q: After you've collected enough data, what next?
A: In the short term, we'll share the data we collect in the form of monthly reports. The reports will spotlight the worst badware offenders and badware trends. Long term, we hope to build a community of organizations, corporations, and individuals who are all working together to stop badware, and build tools to allow millions of people to collectively monitor the health of the internet and their own computers. We want to figure out how the internet community can take back control of our computers.


Q: What makes you different from all the other anti-spyware efforts?
A: Obviously, lots of other people and companies are working in this space. That is a good thing. We feel we're different for a number of reasons. Unlike many of the companies working in the space, our roots are in organizations (.orgs and .edus) with independent traditions, so we won't be afraid to call out badware creators of any size. We're not going to hand down solutions from on high - we want to work with both experts and the broader internet community to define and understand the problem. We'll work with that same community to create solutions that will protect the internet in the long term. Finally, since part of our goal is to become a central clearinghouse for data, we view ourselves as a complement to the best other efforts in the field. We believe that our unique take will act as a complement, as we all share data to better attack the same end goal.


Q: I'm not tech-savvy. What can I do to help?
A: You can help us by telling those you know - family, friends, coworkers, and acquaintances - about the problem and directing them to this site. If you have stories about your experiences with badware, please share them with us by using this form. Ask others to contribute their experiences and stories. We will also be releasing reports about the worst badware offenders. Information in these reports could be helpful to you before you decide to download a program or visit a website. Please join our report mailing list and we will keep you informed of our progress.

http://www.stopbadware.org/home/faq