[jimh009]

I see nothing wrong with an AM being an affiliate of a Non-Related program. I can see all sorts of problems developing if they are affiliates in their own program. But, if an AM manages a pharm program, there is nothing wrong with them having a site promoting something like sports or clothing or something.

[jc101]

Ulterior Motif, so your telling me the hard work a past affiliate put into there business who's now a affiliate manager doesn't have the right of operating there business? after reaching success and profitable earnings? that too me is unacceptable they reached success why should they just drop there business down the drain?
However I do agree with you though on "

Perhaps on that basis affiliates should have the same rights as affiliate managers? Perhaps affiliates should know how their fellow affiliates perform as well.. the opportunity to identify who produces the results and how. Really level the playing field."

Because they can easily try the results and steal peoples ideas, I agree with you on that Ulterior Motif.

tibbs-It takes experience and skills to operate on the www. I'm here to get sales and I'm here to be harsh and find out ways to sell and be profitable. you have to take that step of passing the obsticles and competion to be profitable. why be nice and let your competition steal customers from you? on the www. I'm hitting gold mines with programs because I smashed over the competition. Without even doing any damage to the competition. So your telling me merchants should just destroy and lose $10,000 a month or what ever it is just because they wanted to get into a different task? Also I have no problem with them being a affiliate if they aren't a affiliate of a merchant and using there affiliates techniques to profit themselves. Just my 2 cents.. I'm interested in what others think.. lets continue this thread.

so get a life!

[SamyT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But I do want to know who's affiliate manager is doing their own affiliate thingy! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As you know Nova, I've been an active affiliate for a couple of years but I am NOT a member of the Australian Native program - the business itself is my mother's - I'm the AM purely because I know what affiliate marketing is, can manage reports, banners, datafeeds and she would never be able to handle all this herself.

When someone joins the Aus. Native program, I check out the site to make sure that they HAVE a site and of course I will keep an eye on the sales to make sure no parasites and such have slipped into the program - that's the extent of it though.

As an affiliate (which is how I make my living - my mother doesn't pay me to be her AM!) I focus mostly on posters, it's not in the slightest bit related to what our affiliate program offers.

I'm successful enough at it to earn a living from posters alone because I do things my own way - I believe that is the key to success as an affiliate, not pumping out carbon copies of other people's sites.

[Trust]

I don't think it's anything to worry about. I think most affiliate managers do have affiliate sites since a lot of them were affiliates first. I'm not too fond of them being affiliates for programs they run themselves but it happens. As long as the merchant is converting i'm happy and i wouldn't recommend affiliate managers "borrowing - copying - stealing" ideas off of their affiliates sites, because sooner or later it'll be found out. I remember one AM that used to have a forum here did that and they are no longer here. Not good to get that kind of rep.

[Squirrel]

What about the aff manager who is a member of his own aff prog so he can pick holes in it to improve it?

[Sam Bay]

There cannot be a rule against affiliate managers being affiliates of the programs they do not run. It cannot be monitored. If there was a rule, it would be unfair Affilite Managers. Because affiliate marketing is not a contest, it's hard work.

About the affiliate managers who're affiliates of their own programs; It doesn't sound right, but as long as their bosses don't mind, it's just another competetion for me, so I don't care.

Stealing and copying sites is what scumbags do. When an affiliate managers does it, it also has some "back-stabbing" feeling to it.

[Roland]

I have nothing against an AM who runs a different affiliate business. But I had to AMs in inhouse progs, which ran an affiliate bsuiness on their own merchnat. The end was: they took sales from affiliates and booked them as their own. My sales went dramatically down. To contact this AM doesn't bring me anything so I turned to the owner himself. Short time later the sales went back to normal.

carneol

[Rik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I see nothing wrong with an AM being an affiliate of a Non-Related program. I can see all sorts of problems developing if they are affiliates in their own program. But, if an AM manages a pharm program, there is nothing wrong with them having a site promoting something like sports or clothing or something. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's the way I see it too (mainly because a competing AM would most likely have the advantage over myself).

[Ron Bechdolt]

I would love to hear something from Haiko, Andy, Mike Mackin, Akiva, Chris and other AM's about this. I know some of these folks are affiliates also.

Could you please address some of these questions and concerns?

[Haiko de Poel, Jr.]

tibbs,

The only information that AMs have about you as an ABW member is what you put into your ABW profile which they can access and read, nothing more.

7-Days,

When I first read Shawn's book (I believe the impetus for this thread with the recent emailing error), I thought it was a really great idea for AM's to be affiliates so that they can see the business from the "other side". However, years later, with some of the things I've seen happen / done I definitely think it's best that AMs should NOT be affiliates as well. I do know of honest and ethical AMs that are successful affiliates in non-related industries, but deep down inside, I think we all question if there was a little extra information or strategy that might have been shared and I think that the trepidations we have only do a dis-service to that AM or the program he/she is affiliated with.

[nothere]

Haiko, you seem like an straight up guy, many thanks for the response.
But as 7-days said Andy, Mike Mackin, Akiva, Chris and other AM's about this. May we please have an response.

[northernstudio]

Chris weighed in as being in favor of AMs being affiliates in the previous thread on this issue (which is active again in parallel to this one.)
http://abw.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tp...9&m=7766023944

We all change as we live and learn and I hope he'll reconsider his support for this idea.

Wayne

[Ron Bechdolt]

Haiko,

Thanks for the follow up. Much appreciated.


Tibbs,

I'm doubtfull we will get many of the other AM's to respond, but I hope so. Bad time for me to post this as I fear most are heading out of town for the Vegas Conferenc. We might have to bump this next week.

[Soul_Rebel]

It depends the situation. For example I know an affiliate manager of a big co. in the adult industry that earns over $1mil as affiliate of other adult companies. I estimate his wage below $20k/month. It's obvious he would never work exclusively for a company since he can earn couple times more money than what a company would offer to him. On the other hand the adult co. has a top-level aff. manager which earns them more money than the average manager. In general in the industry no aff. manager signs a non-competition agreement.

[Affiliate Ian]

Interesting thread. Let me chime in.
Â*
Personally, I have been an Affiliate for a few years now. I remember signing up for Amazon back in the days whenÂ*they had the old stats interface. This was first where I learned about an Associates Program and was amazed that I could make a referral commission when I sent them some traffic.

It is this experience and knowledge of being an long time Affiliate that allowed me to include specific tools and administrative functions into our Program that I would have wanted if I was an Affiliate. Having hands on experience would better equip the Manager to know what the Affiliate base is going through and what they are looking for, whether it be helping to increase conversion rates or policing Affiliates who do not comply with T&C's. Similarly to Affiliates who actually know the products they promote, it makesÂ*your job easier and usually, you are more successful at it.
Â*
Not to say that I have single handedly help each and every Affiliate go from $0 to $thousands / month but I would like to believe that because of brain storming sessions on the telephone and back and forth communication via emails and forums has helped many Affiliates generate more income than if we had not communicated at all. Yes, I also admit, I have had some awesome ideas come to me in the shower and especially in the long commute to and from work but I find that sometimes great ideas come about when someone makes a suggestion and it leads to another person coming up with a great solution! Sort of like ABW posts! It believe in my case, one aspect of being able to help Affiliates grow their income and at the same time, perform my job at a high level is my personal experience as an Affiliate.
Â*
So for the million dollar question. I guess this is up to the individual company but I personally do not promote our own Program as an Affiliate.

[Julian]

The only way I can see that it would be ok for an affiliate manager to be an affiliate is if the affiliate manager donated all of their income from being an affiliate to the affiliates that belong to the program that they are managing. In the form of affiliate bonuses etc.

If they are an affiliate for the sole purpose of being a better manager (the only reason that is really ethical) then the money they earn from the affiliate programs should be forfeited

What do people think about doing that?

[Linda - 5starAffiliatePrograms]

Ok, I will jump in. These are obviously my personal opinions and the way I do things.

I do think it's a conflict of interest for an AM to be an "active" affiliate for the program they manage.

I also think though that having direct affiliate marketing experience is extremely beneficial.

I personally don't think I would even feel comfortable actively promoting any of the well known ABW programs even the ones I don't work with on the AM side. I would just not be comfortable competing with affiliates that I know.

Do I dabble at affiliate marketing on the side, YES and it's very valuable to me in helping affiliates. I used to do SEO for a living a would have totally lost touch of what works if I was not still involved in optimizing some affiliate pages. The SEO knowledge really helps me help affiliates. When I say dabble I really mean dabble.

I have a bunch of links up for non ABW programs, but don't actively promote them and very seldom make a dime. It's just not where I spend my time. But it's still valuable because I can relate to checking stats and seeing a goose egg! More importantly for me at least I also get to see how other AM's message and treat their affs and always learn something from that.

I also don't do much active aff mktg because I think it could take too much time away from what I am really here to do. So I mainly just have some links up on my Catalyst site for products that merchants would be interested in like tracking software, newsletter software, etc.

[Thomas A. Rice]

Absolutely, I think it is okay to be an affiliate of programs other than the one you are managing. Why would I want to voluntarily limit my income to the one small niche that my program dwells in? It wouldn't be fair to say, "Tom, you can't participate in 99.99999% of this industry, because you are a manager for a niche that makes up .00001 of the overall market.

When I develop a new web site, I have no idea which of you is already there. If I do it right - and that's where the easy money is made - I cover a niche that none of you have even thought of.

There are a million billion angles from which to approach, and what works for you may not work for me, so being a manager of a program doesn't really help me.

Besides, if I want to know which sites are successful and which are not, I do not have to look at my affiliate's web sites - all I have to do is a simple search online, and check out the first ten sites.

Affiliate Managers that do not participate in affiliate marketing from both sides are voluntarily reducing their own knowledge base by half.

[Akiva]

Ron, you asked so I'll give my input

I don't know about other AM's, but I started out in this industry as an affiliate - circa 1996. I'll admit that I am still heavily involved in the affiliate side of things and I am thankfully doing quite well. To say that I benefitted from other affiliates methods is a gross error. Not only did I figure it all out on my own, but as a manager, I constantly help struggling folks learn and earn more. Many at ABW can testify to that However I do agree that there are folks that would take advantage and therefore I choose not to take a position on this issue.

[chetf]

Like anything it can be abused, but I don't think by default it is a bad situation, as long as the AM is not competing in the same market.

While I understand what Chris is saying about test etc, at the same time, that means you are direct competing against your affiliates, if you are testing this or that - you may be running over one of your own affiliate's niches. That is a concern.

And I think that is very close to what tiger direct did when they started creating competing sites. There is a difference there, I do not think Chris would use his setup to monkey around with commissions, sadly I don't think I could really say the same for Tiger anymore.

A great deal of what people do is not innovative, it is merely process. So having an AM who is familiar with the process is beneficial. Face it, from what I see out there, 95% of affiliate sites are nothing special and what information is the AM seeing that a competitor would not? What do you tell your AM, what do you discuss with them? You can limit that, that is the only thing that could be revealing, how you market your site, how you get new visitors etc. If you are worried about someone finding that out - don't tell the AM, hold back that want to brag, close your mouth and keep working.

So having an AM who knows your site on a superficial level - i don't see the concern. Can they see what sites work compared to those that don't? yeah - but can't affiliates see this as well? Don't you check other sites and see what people are doing? Don't you experiment?

Chet

[Ron Bechdolt]

Wow, thanks for all the AM responses here (and I thought we would not get any).

The bottom line for me is who I trust. And that trust is built on many things, not just if the AM is also an affiliate.

&lt;Begin Rant&gt;
I want an AM that does not ignore my emails.
I want an AM that does not change contest rules.
&lt;End Rant&gt;

You AM's out there who I have several programs with know who you are and I appreciate all that you do for me.

Okay, back on subject.

[Chet_B]

After reading about what some other AM's have done in the past I can definately understand why alot of you wouldn't feel comfortable with working with an AM that is in affiliate marketing too.

But to say an AM should just quit something he/she has been doing for years...

It would be like AM's saying that if they teach you something to help you get good rankings in the SE's and good sales then you, as an affiliate, cannot use that same technique promoting other affiliate programs.

I know alot of you would say that you been doing this for a while and noone could teach you anything new that you don't already know, but in the same breath it works both ways.

Also, I have learned so much about being an AM from being an affiliate. Knowing what affiliates need to be successfull has a great advantage over the AM's that don't have a clue. And there are alot out there that have no clue.

The AM's that never been an affiliate are the same ones I see people complaining about in here because their program App's were denied because "I looked over your site but it wasn't a good match for my products..."

Or they are the same ones that people here complain about because they were dropped/terminated after 30 days because "There has been no activity from your site."

They are the same AM's that give you a datafeed with 1,000 + products that are uncategorized... as an affiliate I hate that!

They are the same AM's that only give you a banner or two as their creatives and think they are doing you a favor.

They are the ones that delete your emails because they don't feel like typing a few lines.

They are the ones that make rules that you cannot put their product names in your title or meta tags.

They are the ones that send "threatening" letters of termination if you don't get a sale within xx amount of days.

Am I an affiliate? Yes I am... I never hid the fact that I was.

Am I rich? ...

Do I use affiliates ideas for my own advantages? No I don't...

Do you believe me or trust me?
That is up for affiliates to decide when/if they join my programs. Those of you that have worked with me on the eVitamins program on an individual basis know I do what I can to help you make money with that program.

[Radegast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet_B:

The AM's that never been an affiliate are the same ones I see people complaining about in here because their program App's were denied because "I looked over your site but it wasn't a good match for my products..."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's the rub.

Surely a good Affliate Manager has to know what it's like to be an affiliate?

It's the age-old debate about people working their way up from the bottom and knowing a business from the ground up as opposed to newly-qualified academics being brought into a company over people's heads.

Of course, there is ALWAYS room for abuse and everything always boils down to people's individual ethics and integrity.

[jc101]

The AM's that never been an affiliate are the same ones I see people complaining about in here because their program App's were denied because "I looked over your site but it wasn't a good match for my products..."

yep that's the rub for me too. Surely a experienced affiliate manager knows how we operate, and knows what we can accomplish. Especially those who have been in this industry for a long time who know others that have been within this industry for a long time. I only try to sign up for affiliate programs where I know the affiliate manager has been in this industry for a long time, that they know what affiliates need to be successful.

[Billy Kay]

An AM who is also an affiliate will always have two things that us regular affiliates will never have:

1. When he (as an affiliate) sends an email to himself (as an AM), he will most likely get a RESPONSE!!!

2. When he (as an affiliate) sends an email to himself (as an AM), with screen shots, tracking numbers, order numbers, credit card receipts, copies of UPS delivery confirmations, sworn statements from a judge that a sale that was not tracked actually DID occur, he would probably say, "I'll just take my own word for it and manually credit the sale to myself"!!

Although based on true events, that was tongue-in-cheek!!