[RandyNorton]

Is MyPoints still considered to be a "parasiteware" contributor? We were recently contacted by them and I want to get an idea where the Affiliate community is at with them.

Please let me know,

Randy

[Zeus]

Randy - Is MyPoints still considered to be a "parasiteware" contributor?

I know the post is dated July 15th, 2005 but after reading Ben last post on his site we can say it's becoming worse.
CoolSavings and MyPoints, are buying traffic from Direct Revenue.
"But CoolSavings and MyPoints nonetheless use "adware" to grab merchants' traffic -- a prohibited practice I've previously observed from smaller affiliates, but never from affiliates of this size. It's surprising and, frankly, disappointing to see this behavior from affiliate leaders otherwise held in such high esteem."
http://www.benedelman.org/news/011606-1.html
"CoolSavings and MyPoints' ads violate applicable affiliate network rules. Commission Junction prohibits affiliates from buying media from "ad services that download and install software on an end user's computer" -- so traffic from Direct Revenue is clearly off-limits."

[Gordon]

If it mixes with scum it is scum.

[ecomcity]

There never has been a proven case of any BHO super affiliate not violating all network's Terms Of Service from the first day they launched their commission stealing applications. Infestation schemes demand customer abusing installs if the BHO is to keep ahead of the detect/removal tools. No way, other then bending the rules, can a BHO affiliate generate legit adult concentual installs, or 100% valid commissions. If the "feel good" and reward BHO affiliates were sincere, they'd require their teams of Adwhores to perform freebee blow j*bs to the homeless winos as a community service for their consumer abuses.

[Donuts]

Spammers as well. And remember, the FTC recently held a merchant responsible for the actions of their affiliates.

[Kellie aka Ms. B]

Worse is I've seen CoolSavings popping up on affiliate's web sites through 180 not too long ago. If you have 'coupon' in your domain name, they may well be popping on your site. And shame on UnitedAirlines (owners of MyPoints).

Personally, I haven't seen that popping on merchant's sites to have been just smaller affs or merchants for that matter. And I'm not at all surprised to see either one of those guys advertising through adware. Coolsavings has always been 'aggressive' with their advertising. MyPoints has operated their own adware. If you would run adware yourself, why wouldn't you potentially advertise through it also? As for as the Networks go, you're more likely to see them take action against a smaller aff than a larger one. Ain't that a shame? Yes it is. Nothing like that good ole even playing field.

On a brighter note so as not to end a post too negative, MyPoints has dropped their shopping reminder application. It is no longer available for new installs. But looks like they still need to do some hard looking at their marketing strategies.

[bedelman]

Worse is I've seen CoolSavings popping up on affiliate's web sites through 180 not too long ago.

Neat. Got a screenshot? I bet the networks would like to see that too. Esp. CJ, with their new stricter stance on use of third-party adware.

shame on UnitedAirlines (owners of MyPoints)

Yes. For those who don't know: They advertise with Direct Revenue. (And maybe Kellie knows of other issues too.)

Personally, I haven't seen that popping on merchant's sites to have been just smaller affs or merchants for that matter.

I intended to convey the fact that adware-based cookie-stuffers tend to be small -- small in these sense of not having big/well-known names. (Compare them with the big/well-known affiliates -- Flamingo World, Coupon Mountain, what have you.) To you and me, names like ShopToday and Wholesaling Online actually mean something (something bad). But to most folks, these affiliates are below the radar. At least that's my claim.

MyPoints has dropped their shopping reminder application. It is no longer available for new installs.

Yup. I saw that too. If the reminder app wasn't central to their business, getting rid of it makes good sense -- eliminates a broad class of merchants' worries. Consider: Ebates without MMM seems like an easy sell to most merchants. It's just when you put MMM back into Ebates that Ebates raises serious concerns. Tellingly, Ebates won't let merchants opt out of MMM. But with MyPoints, the story seemed to be exactly the opposite -- that they decided to drop the reminder app altogether (at least for new signups), which I do tend to consider an honorable and sensible strategy.

Looks like they still need to do some hard looking at their marketing strategies.

I agree.

[Kellie aka Ms. B]

Got a screenshot? I bet the networks would like to see that too. Esp. CJ, with their new stricter stance on use of third-party adware.

No, got video. Although screenshots can be made from that. I doubt seriously the networks would be interested in it. Coolsavings runs as a Merchant on CJ, so I'm pretty sure which way that will blow. I have other plans for them anyway.

[Clickinks.com]

Hey Kellie / Ben

Do you guys know any other loyalty or incentive sites which are actually clean? I'd love to sign up to one!

Thanks
Sajjad
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[bedelman]

I personally use FatWallet (which has never offered a download) and Ebates (for which I consider their web site just fine, even as I have serious concerns about certain of their download practices). That's not to say that these sites offer merchants a good deal -- that's a bigger question, requiring further discussion. But for me as a consumer, I'm happy with what they offer me.

[Clickinks.com]

Originally Posted by bedelman

I personally use FatWallet (which has never offered a download) and Ebates (for which I consider their web site just fine, even as I have serious concerns about certain of their download practices). That's not to say that these sites offer merchants a good deal -- that's a bigger question, requiring further discussion. But for me as a consumer, I'm happy with what they offer me.

Sorry Ben, I meant advertise with. I guess Ebates is out the window.

Thanks
Sajjad
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[UncleScooter]

Originally Posted by bedelman

I personally use FatWallet (which has never offered a download) and Ebates (for which I consider their web site just fine, even as I have serious concerns about certain of their download practices). That's not to say that these sites offer merchants a good deal -- that's a bigger question, requiring further discussion. But for me as a consumer, I'm happy with what they offer me.

For someone who has spent as much time investigating and exposing parasites as you have, I am shocked that you are an eBates user Ben.
So you have issues with them, but you use their service to make money? Do you sell crack to children too?

I have a completely different opinion of you now. I realize that makes no difference to you.

[Zeus]

I remember one post of Haiko talking about the special "relationship" between Ben and eBates.

[Celicaphile]

Originally Posted by bedelman

I personally use ... Ebates

Are you EFFING kidding me?!?

[Clickinks.com]

Originally Posted by Zeus

I remember one post of Haiko talking about the special "relationship" between Ben and eBates.

Oops... Did I open a can of worms?... Sorry!

Sajjad
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[Mr. Sal]

Originally Posted by Clickinks.com

Oops... Did I open a can of worms?... Sorry!

Sajjad

While I was wondering about your question "Do you guys know any other loyalty or incentive sites which are actually clean? I'd love to sign up to one!", now I am glad that you asked that question.

I don't think that you opened a can of worms, I believe that you just lifted the rock that was covering a hole.

[Clickinks.com]

Originally Posted by Mr. Sal

While I was wondering about your question "Do you guys know any other loyalty or incentive sites which are actually clean? I'd love to sign up to one!", now I am glad that you asked that question.

Mr. Sal,

Let me explain myself. Incentive websites have a very loyal user base and I would expect them to be extremely profitable as an acquisition source.

I have recently been schooled in the concerns of using My Points whom contacted me a few months before I got involved in the affiliate world. We have never done business together. However, before I met Andy and knew of their rogue practices, I seriously considered it. Therefore I was looking for a clean loyalty website where I could promote my printer cartridges… still looking actually if anyone can help?

I hope this clears things up?

Thanks
Sajjad
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[Mr. Sal]

Sajjad,

Like I said, now I am glad that you asked that question, I rather see somebody asking any question, even if what they're asking for is not that popular around here, than hear somebody saying that candy will give you cavitys, while at the same time they're promoting candy.

Sal.

[bedelman]

Wow, what a can of worms I've opened here, all by misunderstanding the question. Would delete my prior message if I could, to avoid derailing the thread. But since it's here, there's no way around it.

That I use Ebates, personally, is no secret. See my prior article about Ebates where I specifically describe myself as a "fan" of these discounts.

As far as I'm concerned, an affiliate is free to do whatever it wants with the commissions it earns -- give them to users, throw them in the trash, whatever. Now, merchants ought to know what is happening, within reason --- giving payments to customers (as rebates) is different than supporting a charity, which in turn is different from funding an affiliate's internal operations. But there's nothing prima facie wrong with rebates.

What's wrong with Ebates business -- what always has been wrong, and what I've discussed repeatedly (on my site, in in-person presentations, and here on ABW) -- is their software download. Sometimes it installs without consent (as I have personally documented in video proof -- the only such video ever posted by anyone on the web, to the best of my knowledge). Sometimes it tricks or deceives users into accepting installation when they didn't really want it and didn't fairly understand what it would do. And it widely eliminates return-days for other affiliates.

These are serious problems with the Ebates download and the Ebates business model. Ebates ought to be criticized for these practices, and it widely is criticized, here and elsewhere.

But does that mean I shouldn't use Ebates to save a buck or two, here or there? Frankly I could do just as well by moving all my rebate purchasing to Fatwallet, and maybe I'll do that in the coming months. (That I use Ebates at all is something of a historical accident -- I learned about Ebates' discoungts before I learned about the problems with their download, and really before I began studying spyware at all.) In any event, though, I'm not ashamed to tell folks I use Ebates -- they are and have been a market-share leader in the rebates field; they're a must-mention when discussing rebate systems with novices; and they offer users a fair value, even as I'm convinced they can be seriously harmful to other affiliates and to merchants.

Zeus, there's no "special" relationship between me and Ebates. Haiko has repeatedly made vague allegations, but they're entirely baseless. Fact is, I woudln't accept work from Ebates if offered; and I have never performed such work. Haiko has no information to the contrary, because no such information exists.

[Trust]

But is it worth it? It's only a few bucks and like you said you can move all your rebate purchases to an "always been clean" affiliate. You writing about the problems of ebates and then having a sign up link gives off mixed messages and between hurting and helping your reputation, it's not going to help, can only hurt. That's why I don't think it's worth the few bucks.

[Trust]

http://www.benedelman.org/travel/

On the very bottom.

"For more great deals, try Ebates."

And then you have articles on hows it's been installed thru security holes:

http://www.google.com/custom?q=ebate...D%3A0%3B&hl=en

[UncleScooter]

Hey Ben,
You can also make money by selling crack to kids. Do you do that too?

You are no doubt the BIGGEST hippocryte that I have ever seen and I feel dirty for reading your work and following you and supporting you.

You didn't have access to the IC at the time, but I stuck up for you in a LARGE way one time when Haiko was making some strong statements about you. For that I feel really f*cking stupid! Haiko was right.

Shame on you Ben! You have been at Harvard for some 5 years or so. I doubt seriously that you need the damn money that eBates sends you.

I challenge you to total it all up, multiply it by ten and donate that amount to a legitimate charity, and NO...Upromise and Igive are not a charities.

[Mr. Sal]

Originally Posted by bedelman

Wow, what a can of worms I've opened here, all by misunderstanding the question. Would delete my prior message if I could, to avoid derailing the thread. But since it's here, there's no way around it.

That I use Ebates, personally, is no secret. See my prior article about Ebates where I specifically describe myself as a "fan" of these discounts.

As far as I'm concerned, an affiliate is free to do whatever it wants with the commissions it earns -- give them to users, throw them in the trash, whatever. Now, merchants ought to know what is happening, within reason --- giving payments to customers (as rebates) is different than supporting a charity, which in turn is different from funding an affiliate's internal operations. But there's nothing prima facie wrong with rebates.

What's wrong with Ebates business -- what always has been wrong, and what I've discussed repeatedly (on my site, in in-person presentations, and here on ABW) -- is their software download. Sometimes it installs without consent (as I have personally documented in video proof -- the only such video ever posted by anyone on the web, to the best of my knowledge). Sometimes it tricks or deceives users into accepting installation when they didn't really want it and didn't fairly understand what it would do. And it widely eliminates return-days for other affiliates.

These are serious problems with the Ebates download and the Ebates business model. Ebates ought to be criticized for these practices, and it widely is criticized, here and elsewhere.

But does that mean I shouldn't use Ebates to save a buck or two, here or there? Frankly I could do just as well by moving all my rebate purchasing to Fatwallet, and maybe I'll do that in the coming months. (That I use Ebates at all is something of a historical accident -- I learned about Ebates' discoungts before I learned about the problems with their download, and really before I began studying spyware at all.) In any event, though, I'm not ashamed to tell folks I use Ebates -- they are and have been a market-share leader in the rebates field; they're a must-mention when discussing rebate systems with novices; and they offer users a fair value, even as I'm convinced they can be seriously harmful to other affiliates and to merchants.

(Bolded and red color by me.)

Ben,

I'm not a lawyer, you're, but there's something prima facie wrong with what many of us thought about you and parasites.

Originally Posted by bedelman

In any event, though, I'm not ashamed to tell folks I use Ebates -- they are and have been a market-share leader in the rebates field; they're a must-mention when discussing rebate systems with novices; and they offer users a fair value, even as I'm convinced they can be seriously harmful to other affiliates and to merchants.

Ben, you just committed suicide with that statement, I don't think that any honest merchant or affiliate will be able to trust you the next time that you say that x, y, or z, merchant is in bed with parasites, not even with your videos as prove.

But I won't be surprised if after some affiliates read what you just admited here, they come to this thread and do their regular they like to do on some forums.

Good Luck.


Sal.

[UncleScooter]

Ben is now part of the problem, and because he has so many people who listen to him, he is a LARGE part of the problem.

Ben Edelman is pro-parasite. It is now apparent that all of his research was done only to get his name in the news and that he does not give a flying rat's ass about the betterment of the affiliate marketing industry.

SHAME ON YOU BEN!!!!!

[Clickinks.com]

Ben,

Are you speaking at the next Affiliate Summit?

Sajjad
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