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  1. #1
    The affiliate formerly known as ojmoo
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    Afraid to post
    During the summit, I was talking to several people. They said that they was afraid to post on ABW because they was afraid of being flamed, attacked whatever. I always though that the people here are very nice and professionals and I never felt, even from my first post, intimidated to say anything.

    I know that every time I see a newbie post, at least 3 or 4 people wishes the newbie welcomes. Why do you think that some people are afraid to post? What can we do to make this place more welcoming? I think they are totallt misguided, since we do have the best moderators who remove all inappropriate posts so I don't know what they are afraid of. Plus, what's the use of posting something everyone knows/agrees with already. The point of posting is to get5 a conversation going.


    So I say to all you lurkers who are afraid to post, stop being afraid. As long as you don't spam post away. Even if you are wrong. Afterall, how will you learn anything if you don't take a stand and defend it.

    I'm a person who MOOs in public and I'm accepted here so you guys shouldn't worry about what people think. Stand up for yourself and post!!! (You guys who I have talked with know who you are.)
    Expert who says Moo

    a.k.a. OJMOO

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  2. #2
    What's the word? Rhia7's Avatar
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    I think we should promise newbies free kisses
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  3. #3
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Why do you think that some people are afraid to post?
    I would guess that they have opinions that they know will draw flames, like "We love eBates, UPromise, and maybe even a few commission-eating virii"--and they know that saying so will cause them to be nuked!

    Or, their actions show that they love those things (or some other shady rot), and they know they'll be called out on it.

    Those who are afraid to post here almost always (guessing 98% or so) have reason...namely they are up to something that they know ABW is against.
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    My only interjection here would be that perhaps some people that come here to post aren't as educated as those already here on some subjects, and perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to flame and scare people away. I think a milder approach might get people more comfortable and open to education and conversation. Those that are chased away are no longer here to learn, they are lost. We should take every opportunity to guide people in the right direction, but understand they might need some persuasion, and they might have other people guiding decisions and we can maybe give them some information they can take back to those people.

    Let those people get to know you guys, tell the newbies to read the parasiteware forum and come back and ask questions of us after. Instead of going after them, guide them.

  5. #5
    Moderator bibby's Avatar
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    From the time that I joined the people here have been great. I think everyone here has been supportive. Yes, there are times when a veteran affiliate needs to nudge me in the right direction but that's what an ethical affiliate forum is all about.

  6. #6
    Newbie greenehawke's Avatar
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    afraid to post
    I agree with you flamingoworld.

    newbies may not need hugs and kisses, though that is not all bad...

    but welcome and listening when we goof really helps.
    I have found this to be a very helpful and friendly place to be.

    but not everyone is as laid back as me and they could tromp on toes or turf and get bit back.

  7. #7
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingoworld
    *snipped*
    Oh cry me a river.

    The ones who know enough to really be "afraid" of ABW are afraid because they KNOW DARNED WELL what they're doing wrong, and that it'll draw *righteous* flaming.

    Such types don't deserve to have access to this community. The diseased don't get to mingle amongst the healthy and spread their germs!

    Of course, I'm not talking about people who just happen on ABW from somewhere like Google and have the normal "joining a new group" kind of intimidation. But I don't think those are the ones who'd be AT A SUMMIT...

  8. #8
    Moderator
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    I'm going to go out on a limb here..

    Everyone was really nice to me when I started posting... but I'm not a real poster anywhere. I read mostly.. have joined very few forums overall. I'm also the type of person who looks for answers before asking questions...

    But I will also say it can be a pretty tough crowd here.. if you don't know the proper lingo (a mistake will be pointed out quickly!), or post an opinion that disagrees with the majority. Also, to see people "outed" for some reason or another... well, it can intimidate newbies.

    Here's the flip side.. would I have joined (and contributed over 100 posts!) if this didn't present an opportunity to have rational & professional discussions with other (professional) affiliates? I'm not sure I would have...

  9. #9
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Teezone...you're not out on a limb there--you're just missing a bunch of "between the lines" stuff.

  10. #10
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    I've seen most new posters welcomed with open arms over the past 2 years here. The ones who get attacked usually deserve it.

    I don't see why anyone posting as a noob would be afraid. This is a great place to learn and anyone who participates will reap great benefits, besides becoming part of a great family.

    I met quite a few noobs at Affiliate Summit the past couple of days and all were welcomed with hugs and lots of good energy. Noobies need to know this is a good place to be, not some hell hole of evil. I think the ones who stick around and understand that become active and comfortable very quickly. Those who run in fear remain clueless to the benefits of ABW, which is a shame for them.
    Peace,

    Rexanne

    Rexanne.com
    Loving Everyone's Child Creates Magic


  11. #11
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    I'm missing something..?

    Is there an assumption that every person afraid to post is only interested in spamming, does something wrong, or endorses underhanded strategies..?

    If that's the case, I beg to differ.. there are legitimate folks out there who are just hesitant to speak up. While it may be a smaller number than the bad guys, they're out there. I was one of them in the beginning...

  12. #12
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Is there an assumption that every person afraid to post is only interested in spamming, does something wrong, or endorses underhanded strategies..?
    In the context of the setting which the thread's opening question came from, it's THE realistic assumption.

    Oranges was at an Industry Summit when he encountered this--not talking to truly random Joes, or newbs to the industry. People who are familiar with the industry (familiar enough to fork up for a trip to go to one of these shindigs, no less), yet are scared to post here, are afraid for a reason! Those people aren't real newbs who "don't know the lingo" (or have any other knowledge gaps that come from actual newness).

    Like I said in my prior post(s)--these are individuals who know EXACTLY what they are doing! And that's why those people are "afraid" to post their rot here. It's because they should be. They KNOW their rot will be spotted and called out, that we will not fall for it, and we'll tell them exactly where to put it and how far up there it should go!

    And despite what some may try to get you/us to believe, that's one of the big benefits of ABW--here, we (the substantial majority of active posters) won't give the predators free reign to eat.
    Last edited by Leader; February 28th, 2008 at 04:51 AM.

  13. #13
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    ABW is a scary and extremely dangerous place for new participants who don't understand the written and unwritten rules, and who don't recognize that the ABW community is fundamentally different from many "free-for-all" forums. Many of us can be very snippy and rude, and downright hostile.

    But that's true of every "genuine" community. I've attended meetings of dozens of Rotary Clubs, Chambers of Commerce, support groups, computer user groups, hobbyist clubs, and so on. Every group has its own dynamic and its own tolerance for outsiders. Every group has its own "third rail" topics and opinions. And every group has had the experience of outsiders coming in and assuming that they will be able to "use" (or abuse) the group in some way.

    When I refer someone to ABW (usually affiliate managers), I always caution them to be extremely cautious when posting here. On one page at my site, I wrote: "Spend 10 to 20 hours reading through the discussions before you post any questions or comments here; do not ever post your own "affiliate links" on ABestWeb!" In fairness, that's not unique to ABW in any way; every community requires some "acclimation and adjustment time" before a new member understands the shared values and acceptable behaviors. In another section on my site, I wrote this about using forums to promote a new merchant's affiliate program:
    > "Post announcements, where permitted, on relevant online forums and discussion groups (always checking to insure compliance with the board's rules). This work may be done by your firm's affiliate manager or 'web evangelist.'

    "It is absolutely crucial that the affiliate manager never 'post first, and ask questions later.' Forum spamming would alienate key prospects - and negative discussion threads about such practices will survive for many years.

    "It can take from 5 to 15 minutes (or longer) to identify the 'appropriate' format for a post on a particular forum; an average of 10 minutes per forum is probably a conservative estimate, and 30% to 50% of forums may not permit free announcements of this type." <

    As someone who is both cynical and overtly hostile to certain people who don't share my values & ethics (spammers, for example), I am part of the perceived "problem" here, but I think that this is actually part of what makes me somewhat valuable in this community. Likewise, some folks here are "snippy" and quick-to-judgment (more so than me, I think), and their quick responses probably scare off 99 spammers for every 1 legitimate participant who is scared to post.

    Yes, it's absolutely true that if certain folks here (me included) were somewhat less hostile and much less cynical, there are many folks who would join the discussions who could add to the community. Unfortunately, they would be accompanied by many more folks who would link-drop and offer ridiculous suggestions (use bulk email, use pop-ups, make millions from an hour's work, etc.) that would, in my opinion, undermine the community by eroding the core shared values here.
    Last edited by markwelch; February 28th, 2008 at 08:40 AM.

  14. #14
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
    I decide when the pigs fly!
    Rhea's Avatar
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    This is a tough business. This is a tough forum. Anyone who can't hack the way things work at ABW should probably reconsider their choice of affiliate marketing as a livelihood before their feelings REALLY get hurt. (And their wallet, too.)

    And I write that with nothing but love in my heart. :hugs:

  15. #15
    Best New ABW Member 2007 sfcom's Avatar
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    I like the way most spammers disappear in a day or less.

    I like the fact that ABW is a learning community that expects users to learn.

    The ABW community is perceived as a tough crowd. Wonderful. If you want other alternatives to hang out in to promote garbage and learn on a lesser level, there are plenty. Just PM me (*insert evil laugh here*) and I will send you links.

    ABW works just fine for me.

    Everyone was a beginner affiliate at some point. Did I break down and ask how to post banners from CJ when I was new? Nope. Just went to CJ help. Using the help or FAQs from the various networks will get you through most beginner problems. If not, go ahead and post your question.

    What did the pioneers of affiliate marketing do to learn? Access to quick answers on boards was not an option in the early days. Now many that come to ABW expect an A-Z guide. There is a real "hand it over" attitude shown by some of the new members.

    I think at times you can compare ABW to college professors who make a reading assignment. Except in this scenario, many of the students don't read the assigned book. They just come into class asking questions that were answered in the book. Could you imagine how this would be received in real life?

    Do the proper research, then post. You will then receive an answer to your issue. You will also lose the fear to post.

    -sfcom
    Last edited by sfcom; February 28th, 2008 at 09:48 AM.


  16. #16
    Full Member Code Monkey's Avatar
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    ABW has grown to become just like a virtual family. And, just like a family, new people are seldom welcome into the inner circle, unless they proclaim that they believe 100% in what the virtual family already believes.

    If you have your own opinion, and find that it differs from those that are in the inner circle, you're pretty much out of luck at ABW.

  17. #17
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamingoworld
    perhaps some people that come here to post aren't as educated as those already here on some subjects
    Every time I see someone here object to someone's behavior, we describe it and provide details. If we just threw tomatoes and hurled personal babrbs at people, I'd get your point of view.

    If I say "you suck because you allow your honest affiliates to get robbed", somehow people think that's a personal attack... it's never personal with me, it's all business. And if they're in this business, and they let people steal from me and from my peers, they're going to get an earful, not a soft warm hug and a welcome basket.

    I really do think this is a welcoming place, unless you waltz in here trying to fool everyone, trying to pretend your something other than what you are, or if you're trying to convince us you're a worthy partner but you're unprofessional enough to take the time to learn about tracking and the behavior of your partners. Folks don't have to be born informed and hypersmart, but if they want to claim they're experts, gurus, leaders, managers, informed, updated and capable first, yet they don't know what a cookie or BHO is, then I'll undress them in front of everyone. That will motivate them to learn or leave, and frankly, if they choose leave, they were never going to make the effort to learn anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by flamingoworld
    I think a milder approach might get people more comfortable and open to education and conversation.
    If folks knew how many merchants and managers I have engaged and educated, they'd stop classifying people like me as attackers (not that you did flamingo, but its often the case). We have affiliates here who don't get things and they generally are also the ones who see the passion in engagement as personal or attack-like - they too need to reassess their value to the community. If your contribution is only that you tell everyone to be nice, you're missing out that there's a huge chunk of people who are bent on willfully screwing you and your work. In my eyes, passivity is right behind cheating as contributors to the state of things.

    Even you flamingoworld, calling for "milder", implies this place is too harsh. I see this place as warm and gushy and giving and engaging, except when a snake slithers in, then the pitchforks come out of the closet. People here are friends, lots of love to go around and most respect each other professionally as well... asking for a milder approach to people who knowingly steal from us is weak and it mischaracterizes the true nature of things here.

    Quote Originally Posted by flamingoworld
    We should take every opportunity to guide people in the right direction, but understand they might need some persuasion, and they might have other people guiding decisions and we can maybe give them some information they can take back to those people.
    I spent the majority of my time at Affiliate Summit educating people, I could list them for you, but I consider it private. I am literally hoarse from providing guidance to people on all sides of the transactions - affs, managers, networks, opms and more - and I met (or was introduced to) every single one of these people from my contacts made here at ABW.

    So why doesn't everyone stop harping on the worst scumbags being called out and mention the enormous impact that ABW's honesty and frankness has had on the industry - this place is the largest source of slaps to get people inline with treating others with respect, but the slaps are not the majority of what happens here. I have taken hundreds of hours of my time here to patiently and professionally explain things to those not in the know, and once in a while I jack boot somebody who I see doesn't care and would rather fruck over me and my peers.

    Milder, not me. If ABW gets "hushed", the wolves out there will eat the sheep faster and faster.

    If you want a hug, I'll hug anyone - that's a personal welcome and I welcome everyone to join me here. But if you're screwing people over, while I'm hugging you, I'm going to whisper some really harsh professional criticisms in your ear, and when you push me away, well... I'll say it out loud so everyone can hear me. When you walk away feeling attacked, you're choosing to use that feeling as a defense mechanism to make yourself feel better, to relieve your guilt for your behavior or your laziness in your own education - but you shouldn't feel good if you're aiding and abetting thieves, knowingly or otherwise.
    Last edited by Donuts; February 28th, 2008 at 09:59 AM. Reason: typo, here vs hear

  18. #18
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
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    I was a lurker for a few weeks before posting back in..... well, whenever it was. I was scared to post too, since most of this stuff was way over my head (some of it still is, when you get into the nitty gritty of how the bad actors work their craft).

    I'm not sure there's a good answer to this, much like there wasn't when Bob from PWH brought it up a bit ago. (Although I still think SEARCHing before asking "How do I put up an affiliate link?" is a good idea.)

    I'll say this though. I do feel in part that it's my responsibility, both as a mod and an advertiser here, to grow this community. If it means we have to act as Stewards or even a welcoming committee to new members (who aren't spammers), than so be it.

    Tell the good ones to email me, Oranges. We can coach new VALUABLE members on how to get in here without being eaten alive.
    Kevin Webster
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  19. #19
    ABW Ambassador Boom or Bust's Avatar
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    Even being a shoooorrrrrrttttt timer here I'm learning the ropes quickly. But this only comes from a lot of reading and observation. My observation about ABW flaming is that I really have seen very little of it. I do see a lot of free expression of opinion and if a person is not secure enough with their own opinion or not open to changing that opinion, it might be construed as flame. I haven't observed name calling, insults, or even inconsiderateness (is that a word?) which is what I define as flame. I have observed quick response to those who think becoming an affiliate is a get rich quick scheme, or who use unscrupulous methods, or who are takers with no intent of giving back to the pot. I would call that response constructive criticism as it is usually given without malice. It's hard for me to imagine that this should be an excuse for a fear of posting though.

    I don't think you can pin any one reason on users who are afraid to post as I believe there are probably various reasons. Another could simply be intimidation. There are a lot of very knowledgeable members here which likely is very intimidating to a person trying to figure out the complex world of AM. Some people don't communicate well or have trouble putting a sentence together. Granted, they are probably trying to break in to the wrong business if this is the case. They'll probably fade away.

    We can speculate all day as to the reasons some members may be afraid to post. Perhaps a noob forum should be created where they would feel more comfortable conversing with each other before trekking out.

  20. #20
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Rhea's Avatar
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    Perhaps a noob forum should be created where they would feel more comfortable conversing with each other before trekking out.
    I've wondered about that myself. My conclusion was that a noob forum could quickly become a hotbed of misinformation, bad information and BS shared among the members and those who sought to unscrupulously influence them. Some poor mod would have to babysit them to make sure they don't turn to the dark side, not realizing that there is a dark side or that someone is trying to turn them.

    Truly, I think it's best for newbies to jump in, sink or swim, take their lumps if they're handed out and LEARN about this industry and how to participate in it ETHICALLY.

    There are plenty of forums on the internet where people who are interested in working this biz through MLM or adult sites or spam or get-rich-quick schemes can participate without fear of criticism. If noobs want to participate in THIS forum they have to understand that ABW is not like those other forums. Haiko and the mods and the "regulars" of this forum make sure that ABW doesn't turn into one of those kinds of places.

    It's a great idea; I just don't think it's a practical one.

  21. #21
    ABW Ambassador Boom or Bust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea
    It's a great idea; I just don't think it's a practical one.
    See how kind that constructive criticism was? I feel the love!

  22. #22
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Rhea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boomers
    See how kind that constructive criticism was? I feel the love!
    Yeah, and the most amazing part is that I'm about as warm and fuzzy as broken glass. Ask anybody!

  23. #23
    ABW Ambassador Boom or Bust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Code Monkey
    If you have your own opinion, and find that it differs from those that are in the inner circle, you're pretty much out of luck at ABW.
    I'm not sure what this means. I've observed a diversity of differing opinion from inner circle members. By 'out of luck' does this mean they won't talk to you or will snub you or IP ban you?

  24. #24
    Member JAYMEDINC's Avatar
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    I gotta say, I do love this forum. It has become my new favorite website.

    That being said, I can see why some wouldn't want to ever post. My first post on Friday, I included links in my signiture. Within 30 seconds I was scolded. If I didn't need this group as bad as I did, I would've said screw you, I'm gone. However, I stayed and love it. Yes, some people are rude, but that happens in just about any forum. Maybe we should try to be a little more forgiving to newbie mistakes though. Not everybody is going to read before asking questions. I tried, but found this place difficult to navigate until my second or third day here.

    Mark, I am surprised at your opinion of yourself. You have been nothing but helpful to me. I didn't even see that side of you that you mention. I guess I am new!

  25. #25
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Rhea's Avatar
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    A forum is a lot like a neighborhood bar.

    You walk in, find a seat, order a drink, eavesdrop on some convos and strike up a few of your own. And if you feel comfortable and if you fit in you'll realize that you've found a treasure -- a home away from home. It's a wonderful feeling.

    But if you don't fit in, if your conversation rubs people the wrong way or you feel uncomfortable then a smart cookie will understand that it's just not your kind of place. That's okay. There are plenty of other bars to check out where you might fit in great -- just not this particular bar.

    But you don't expect that the owner, bartenders and patrons will change their behavior to suit your comfort level. That's just ridiculous.

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