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  1. #1
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    Pay Per Click Engines ?
    Hi

    Is there such a thing as a moderately priced PPC Search engine that will still get you a decent enough amount of traffic to still bring an income ?

    For example google yahoo and msn are the best, What are your opinions on using ask.com ask jeeves or some of the others such as alta vista ?

    Please do not limit your opinions to just those listed.

    Thanks

    Steve
    DreamLinux.net | Registered Linux User 453976 | PM me to view our sites. It's a Google thing.

  2. #2
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    There have been many discussions about "second-tier" PPC search engines, including Miva/FindWhat (search for info about the class-action lawsuit filed last week) and dozens of others.

    About 99% of folks here seem convinced that nearly all of these "second-tier" search engines are a waste of time and money. A few people claim to run some profitable campaigns on one or two of the second-tier engines, at least for short periods of time.

    The common complaint is click fraud, combined with recursive relationships that make it difficult or impossible to know where your ads actually appear. Every one of these "second tier" folks claim to offer advanced systems to prevent click-fraud -- but conversion rates are usually a very tiny fraction of the rates obtained through "top-tier" PPC search advertising.

    Over the past seven years, I've conducted tests using many different "second-tier" PPC search networks, and every time I find that when I compare the results to my concurrent AdWords campaigns, the same ads and keywords draw significantly lower conversion rates. So on Google AdWords, I might pay 12 cents per click and generate $5 in sales for every $1 spent, while on the "second-tier" PPC networks I might spend only one or two cents per click, but generate much less than $1 in sales for every $1 spent.

    In my opinion, there are exactly three and a half legitimate "Pay-Per-Click Search" engines: Google (AdWords), Yahoo, MSN AdCenter, and Ask.com -- I consider Ask.com to be a "half" because your Google AdWords campaigns will also appear there, with lower minimum-bid rates than demanded by Ask.com itself.

    Of course, there are other "pay-per-click" advertising options, apart from "PPC Search," and there are a wide variety of other online advertising options available.

  3. #3
    Speechless OTProf's Avatar
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    Steve -- Focus on Yahoo & MSN. There will be less competition there (due to the smaller volume and the more irritating user interface for PPC marketers) and the conversion rates are good -even better sometimes- than Google. As for cost, the beauty is that you can set all sorts of limits to your spending -- all the way down to individual terms. Ideally you would begin in a less trafficked niche market (i.e. replacement hubcaps for a '69 Mustang -- if that exists!!) and focus rather specifically on products. You won't necessarily get a ton of action -- but if you continue to expand, the $5 you make per day from one thing can pretty easily become $100 per day by adding & expanding. Then, you can learn to tweak/refine these so that the $5 becomes 6, 7, etc. and things really begin to add up.

  4. #4
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    PPC Engines. Use Yahho First !!....
    Quote Originally Posted by markwelch
    There have been many discussions about "second-tier" PPC search engines, including Miva/FindWhat (search for info about the class-action lawsuit filed last week) and dozens of others.

    About 99% of folks here seem convinced that nearly all of these "second-tier" search engines are a waste of time and money. A few people claim to run some profitable campaigns on one or two of the second-tier engines, at least for short periods of time.

    The common complaint is click fraud, combined with recursive relationships that make it difficult or impossible to know where your ads actually appear. Every one of these "second tier" folks claim to offer advanced systems to prevent click-fraud -- but conversion rates are usually a very tiny fraction of the rates obtained through "top-tier" PPC search advertising.

    Over the past seven years, I've conducted tests using many different "second-tier" PPC search networks, and every time I find that when I compare the results to my concurrent AdWords campaigns, the same ads and keywords draw significantly lower conversion rates. So on Google AdWords, I might pay 12 cents per click and generate $5 in sales for every $1 spent, while on the "second-tier" PPC networks I might spend only one or two cents per click, but generate much less than $1 in sales for every $1 spent.

    In my opinion, there are exactly three and a half legitimate "Pay-Per-Click Search" engines: Google (AdWords), Yahoo, MSN AdCenter, and Ask.com -- I consider Ask.com to be a "half" because your Google AdWords campaigns will also appear there, with lower minimum-bid rates than demanded by Ask.com itself.

    Of course, there are other "pay-per-click" advertising options, apart from "PPC Search," and there are a wide variety of other online advertising options available.
    Mark.

    It seems that I had paid for this traffic for years through a place in Australia. Now I get what Haiko was telling me a little better. ~"You don't know where it is coming from." So now I know that I don't want to use these Engines. No wonder I suck at this. I was not a member of ABW !


    Steve -- Focus on Yahoo & MSN. There will be less competition there (due to the smaller volume and the more irritating user interface for PPC marketers) and the conversion rates are good -even better sometimes- than Google. As for cost, the beauty is that you can set all sorts of limits to your spending -- all the way down to individual terms. Ideally you would begin in a less trafficked niche market (i.e. replacement hubcaps for a '69 Mustang -- if that exists!!) and focus rather specifically on products. You won't necessarily get a ton of action -- but if you continue to expand, the $5 you make per day from one thing can pretty easily become $100 per day by adding & expanding. Then, you can learn to tweak/refine these so that the $5 becomes 6, 7, etc. and things really begin to add up.

    OTProf


    That is just exactly what I wanted to know ! ~ {Just Kidding !}

    I will try this strategy ASAP !

    Thank you !!!!!!

    Steve ....
    DreamLinux.net | Registered Linux User 453976 | PM me to view our sites. It's a Google thing.

  5. #5
    Speechless OTProf's Avatar
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    You're Welcome!

  6. #6
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Steve,

    Friendly reminder:
    Rule #1 in PPC is make sure your site converts, don't just through money at an engine and think you'll make $$, optimize, test and tweak, it's an ongoing process.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  7. #7
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    Haiko's Guiding His Lost Sheep. ~ Me !
    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    Steve,

    Friendly reminder:
    Rule #1 in PPC is make sure your site converts, don't just through money at an engine and think you'll make $$, optimize, test and tweak, it's an ongoing process.
    My vertical is very saturated and competitive which opposite to OTProf's suggestion. This will make it tougher to convert a series of 12 cent clicks in to a single 5 USD sale. Ouch.

    In fact I don't think that throwing money at it will work and that is Why I am very nervous Haiko. Hence my questions I was asking recently.

    As was pointed out to me recently, a few tips and tricks and some filling in the blanks and a Tasmanian Devil is born. Then I'll just go out and do it.

    Thank you Haiko !
    DreamLinux.net | Registered Linux User 453976 | PM me to view our sites. It's a Google thing.

  8. #8
    Full Member OICUAM2's Avatar
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    Never use second tier ppc programs unless you have a very good stats program to track your results. I have found most of the traffic to be junk, but it is possible to find a few profitable traffic streams if you test enough options.

  9. #9
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    Add an Ad ?....
    Quote Originally Posted by OICUAM2
    Never use second tier ppc programs unless you have a very good stats program to track your results. I have found most of the traffic to be junk, but it is possible to find a few profitable traffic streams if you test enough options.

    In the past I was using a SE submission outfit and I believe now that the 3000 or so search engines I was on were in fact these Second Tier SE's.

    I was suggested by OTProf to use Yahoo or msn due to less competition and It seems that I will want to try this first.

    I liked OTProf's idea of starting out with 5 usd and working up to a few bucks a day over time, with some testing and tweaking.

    I am hoping to NOT be #1 cuz it seems unrealistic week after week {Heiko, Your Wisdom is needed here please, Sir.} and it just plain would cost too damn much.

    If I have a few half decent key words, I guess I'll know in 24 hours if I made a dollar or not. Correct ?

    How long should I wait/ hang on to an ad before I dump it ?

    Any thoughts ?

    Steve
    DreamLinux.net | Registered Linux User 453976 | PM me to view our sites. It's a Google thing.

  10. #10
    Speechless OTProf's Avatar
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    There is a certain amount of validity in the Nike 'Just Do It' slogan -- sometimes an ideal way to learn is by getting going. I don't know what space you are in, but you mentioned below that it is very saturated. You also mentioned having a "few half decent" keywords. The question will be how much will they cost; will they convert to sales; and will you profit on the spread of commissions to costs (including some % set aside for returns/reversals); fortunately as you start to set up ads you can get guesstimates on your positioning. You might want to shoot for positions #5-8 so that you aren't paying through the nose for clicks. As Haiko mentioned, you want to have confidence that the site you are promoting has potential/will convert. I personally don't use an exact number, but I've heard frequently that PPC-ers will wait in the ballpark of 100-300 clicks before determining whether the niche/site looks promising.

    If you figure a 1-3 % conversion rate you can begin to get an idea of bidding amounts for breaking even, making a profit, etc. All this said, it can take a while to get to a ample amount of clicks so I tend to try a number of things simultaneously and weed out those not converting, attempt to expand those doing well, and attempt to improve borderline cases (improve by having A/B ad testing, further keyword research [including tagging keywords to get a feel for which terms are converting to sales] and adjusting my bidding amounts/position). You can also focus mostly on the window of 9a-11pm in some markets and save some money that way and/or targeting certain geographical regions -- for example, not trying to sell wood-burning stoves in Florida).

    There are a number of posts here on PPC tactics that you can hopefully find. Be sure to keep things tight -- i.e. have only a small number of keywords in a given ad group and have these words within the ad (ideally ad title). This can be done automatically via dynamic insertion -- but be careful to protect yourself from goofy ads generated by dynamic insertion. For example --

    acme snowboard
    acme snowboards
    acme snow board
    acme snow boards
    acmesnowboard
    acmesnowboards
    acmesnow board
    acmesnow boards

    & so forth could be in one group with the Ad Title: Acme Snowboards (you shouldn't use dynamic in this case in my opinion). Then you'd want to direct the clicker to a page specifically on acme snowboards.

    Then other ad groups could be created with the same keywords with prefix or suffix phrases such as

    discount
    sale
    buy
    free shipping

    You could also have a group with misspellings -- e.g.
    snowbaord/acne


    Sorry -- this post is waaaay too long and rambling so I better just send it now!

  11. #11
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    Search Engine Professor Is darn Cool....
    Quote Originally Posted by OTProf
    There is a certain amount of validity in the Nike 'Just Do It' slogan -- sometimes an ideal way to learn is by getting going. I don't know what space you are in, but you mentioned below that it is very saturated. You also mentioned having a "few half decent" keywords. The question will be how much will they cost; will they convert to sales; and will you profit on the spread of commissions to costs (including some % set aside for returns/reversals); fortunately as you start to set up ads you can get guesstimates on your positioning. You might want to shoot for positions #5-8 so that you aren't paying through the nose for clicks. As Haiko mentioned, you want to have confidence that the site you are promoting has potential/will convert. I personally don't use an exact number, but I've heard frequently that PPC-ers will wait in the ballpark of 100-300 clicks before determining whether the niche/site looks promising.

    If you figure a 1-3 % conversion rate you can begin to get an idea of bidding amounts for breaking even, making a profit, etc. All this said, it can take a while to get to a ample amount of clicks so I tend to try a number of things simultaneously and weed out those not converting, attempt to expand those doing well, and attempt to improve borderline cases (improve by having A/B ad testing, further keyword research [including tagging keywords to get a feel for which terms are converting to sales] and adjusting my bidding amounts/position). You can also focus mostly on the window of 9a-11pm in some markets and save some money that way and/or targeting certain geographical regions -- for example, not trying to sell wood-burning stoves in Florida).

    There are a number of posts here on PPC tactics that you can hopefully find. Be sure to keep things tight -- i.e. have only a small number of keywords in a given ad group and have these words within the ad (ideally ad title). This can be done automatically via dynamic insertion -- but be careful to protect yourself from goofy ads generated by dynamic insertion. For example --

    acme snowboard
    acme snowboards
    acme snow board
    acme snow boards
    acmesnowboard
    acmesnowboards
    acmesnow board
    acmesnow boards

    & so forth could be in one group with the Ad Title: Acme Snowboards (you shouldn't use dynamic in this case in my opinion). Then you'd want to direct the clicker to a page specifically on acme snowboards.

    Then other ad groups could be created with the same keywords with prefix or suffix phrases such as

    discount
    sale
    buy
    free shipping

    You could also have a group with misspellings -- e.g.
    snowbaord/acne


    Sorry -- this post is waaaay too long and rambling so I better just send it now!
    OTProf

    You were rambling ? Where at ?

    Steve
    DreamLinux.net | Registered Linux User 453976 | PM me to view our sites. It's a Google thing.

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