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  1. #1
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    Does Pepperjam work with subaffilate ID networks?
    Does Pepperjam work with subaffiliate ID networks such as IntegraClick / ClickBooth?

  2. #2
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    Donuts,

    Great question.

    The answer is NO - we do not work with subaffiliate ID networks.

    Pepperjam Network does not use direct track, which is where most of the offer sharing takes place. Our technology is proprietary and was built in-house over the course of two years.

    Offer sharing is not part of the Pepperjam Network business model.

  3. #3
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Related question: Do you allow subaffiliate networks as affiliates on PJN or with any of the programs you manage?
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
     Affiliate Tips | Merchant Best Practices | Affiliate Friendly? | Couponing | CPA Networks? | ABW Tips | Activating Affiliates
    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  4. #4
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    Michael,

    Thanks for your question.

    We currently do not have a policy in place about allowing subaffiliate networks to work with Pepperjam Network.

    I went into detail about how Pepperjam Network "rates" each affiliate in the network here - http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=102346

    Because subaffiliate networks lack the transparency characteristics that define the Pepperjam Network Transparency System, these types of affiliates tend to have transparency score less than three and in most cases one or zero.

    I understand that this is an important question so I have a follow-up for you.

    In asking the question do you personally have an argument against letting these types of affiliates into a network?

    What about Pepperjam Network's Transparency System - these types of affiliates can't hide so they are given poor to no transparency rating and ultimately the decision to partner with them or not is up to the advertiser?

    BTW - just because we don't have a policy against letting these subaffiliate networks in doesn't mean they don't have to follow the same level of quality that all affiliates have to follow - if these types of affiliates are found to be injuring the quality of Pepperjam Network they will be terminated from the Network.

  5. #5
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    If you read the link in my signature, you'll see what I think of CPA networks.

    By allowing these networks into your network as affiliates, you lose all transparency and expose yourself to all the practices that you might or might not allow within your own network.

    So is there anything you don't allow, or are you just making things "transparent" and leaving enforcement to the merchants?
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
     Affiliate Tips | Merchant Best Practices | Affiliate Friendly? | Couponing | CPA Networks? | ABW Tips | Activating Affiliates
    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  6. #6
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    Michael,

    Thanks for your follow-up.

    It's the affiliate(s) that lose transparency, not Pepperjam Network since all Pepperjam Network affiliates are given a transparency score based on a series of factors, including verification of contact info, disclosure of Web site(s), promotional methods, etc. In turn, advertisers are given the affiliates transparency score, along with the disclosed information and the responsibility to determine whether or not to partner with a given affiliate.

    As I mentioned above, subaffiliate networks tend to have some of the lowest transparency scores available and I agree with your well articulated concerns about them in your ABW post. Fortunately, most advertisers wouldn't even consider partnering with subaffiliate networks; however, the way our current system is set-up it's the advertiser's decision.

    Of course, there are numerous affiliates that we don't allow in Pepperjam Network. For instance we do not approve affiliates that are involved in any form of illegal or clearly unacceptable activity. Moreover, we reserve the right to disallow any affiliate(s) that do not follow our disclosure (i.e., transparency) rules and terminate any affiliate(s) that do not follow the unique terms and conditions of each advertiser, which includes (in most cases) non-participation from incentive Web sites, subaffiliate networks, e-mail spammers, spyware, and any form of fraudulent activity.

    If any subaffiliate network was found to be in violation of one or more Pepperjam Network advertiser T & C's, they risk losing commissions from the advertiser and being terminated from Pepperjam Network.

  7. #7
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why Coley had to re-ask the question, but I'm glad he did. What exactly were you saying "no" to then in my question?

  8. #8
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    Donuts - Your question is clear and to the point, but I had to read your question a few times because I think I confused myself with my previous response.

    BTW - great question. Let me try to explain our position on subaffiliate networks, especially those that work on the Direct Track backbone.

    Pepperjam Network does not feed off the same offers that are being distributed around through the Direct Track system. For instance, it's my understanding that once an advertiser places a Direct Track pixel that offer is typically shared among countless CPA networks. It's Pepperjam's position that these types of diluted, shared offers would not provide all that much value to Pepperjam Network publishers. Therefore, we require all of our advertisers to place Pepperjam Network pixels.

    FYI - When I say that we don't have a policy against subaffiliate networks from being affiliates I'm not saying that we are working with any of them. For instance, I can tell you that Azoogle, Hydra, CPA Empire, Neverblue, and the others are not affiliates on Pepperjam Network and we have not approached them about being affiliates.

    Does this help?

    Please follow-up if necessary.

  9. #9
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    Yes, your explanation of your pixels being cart side, no cross pub from DT platform and listing several subaffiliate networks as non-PFX does help me quite a bit. Thanks for stating these things here today.

    Can you address the IntegraClick / Clickbooth specifically from my earlier question.

    And if any of these ones we've both mentioned were formerly involved in any way, but are now not, can you mention that please? Basically, I'm asking if those mentioned that are not now involved, have been involved before. If they were, were their individual circumstances that lead to cessation or do you have a wider stance on this issue as a matter of policy or at least professional preference / practices?

  10. #10
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    Donuts,

    Thanks for your follow-up.

    Pepperjam does and and has never worked with IntegraClick or ClickBooth.

    To be honest, I really don't know too much about either of these companies, but I verified that we don't and have never worked with them.

    Can you tell me more about your concern over these two companies?

    BTW - You may need to clarify the second part of your question if it appears that I misunderstood it based on my answer, but here I go.

    ANSWER: As part of our affiliate program management business and now Pepperjam Network we've been mindful of not working with affiliates that are / were involved in any form of illegal or clearly unacceptable activity. As I mentioned, Pepperjam Network's Transparency System takes care of low quality affiliates by attaching a poor transparency score to that affiliate, which makes it difficult or impossible for that affiliate to succeed on Pepperjam Network - Pepperjam Network caters to affiliates that aren't trying to hide anything.

    Did I address your questions or concern?

    Thanks,

    KBJ

  11. #11
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    ANSWER: As part of our affiliate program management business and now Pepperjam Network we've been mindful of not working with affiliates that are / were involved in any form of illegal or clearly unacceptable activity...
    http://www.pepperjam.com/media/cpa-advertising.php

    Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't ValueClick, Azoogle and CPA Empire all been sued or investigated about illegal or unacceptable activity - in some cases, as determined by the FTC.

    Additionally, if your are "mindful of not working with them" - how come it says they are your strategic partners?

    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  12. #12
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Michael Coley
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    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  13. #13
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    Haiko,

    Thanks for your question.

    We do not work with any of the mentioned partners (i.e. Azoogle, CPA Empire, Hydra, ValueClick) on Pepperjam Network.

    The page you are referring to relates to Pepperjam's online media planning and buying division.

    While that page is a bit outdated and should be revised, our media buying division has indeed placed lead-based offers for our clients on those respective CPA networks, among many others. We did this primarily because our strategic partner at that time - Commission Junction, which has also been sued and investigated for various missteps, did not tend to perform as well for lead-based offers.

    All of the companies you mentioned have had legal troubles completely unrelated to the business we have done with them.

    BTW - Linkshare, Performics, Commission Junction, Google, Yahoo, and just about every major company has been sued or investigated for some reason or another.

    I am not condoning the investigated behvaior of these companies (I believe the investigations related to ringtones & incentivized traffic).

    I believe it is a stretch on your part to conclude that agencies such as Pepperjam should not work with these companies because they were investigated or sued for something completely unrelated to the business we've done with them.

    I can tell you this - Pepperjam has never been involved with any of the activities that they were being investigated for.

    BTW - clearly, now that Pepperjam has launched Pepperjam Network, which includes CPA (lead-based) offers, as well as percentage-of-sale (retail) offers, there really isn't a need to launch CPA offers on the networks in question. Therefore, it likely makes sense to pull this page from our Web site. I'm confident this page will change in the near future as we transition our business.

  14. #14
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    Coley,

    I hope you're enjoying your during this fishing expedition.

    I'm hoping that someone steps in at some point and calls the dogs off because this is really turning into a witch hunt.

    Most of the questions are statements that are attempting to link Pepperjam to something unethical or illegal.

    NEWS ALERT - You are not going to find anything.

    We are proud to be in the industry we are in and we take our role as a member and leader very seriously.

    We also take our interest in answering questions here at ABW seriously.

    However....

    There appears to be a much greater interest here at ABW in attempting to find things wrong with Pepperjam than right, I just wish there would be more consideration to the questions that are being asked - good, solid questions - yes, but they are phrased as indictments, which is a bit unsettling to say the least.

    I appreciate providing responses to ABW questions, but trying to say we've done something wrong for launching CPA offers on Azoogle or Hydra is like saying we should have never launched programs on CJ because they clearly do not have clean hands.

    FYI - I would love to be part of the next ABW panel at Affiliate Summit - I have some insights and opinions based on my experience here as an outsider that I'd like to share. I believe that sharing my personal experiences (positive and negative) would be very useful to making this a more productive affiliate community.

  15. #15
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    The page you are referring to relates to Pepperjam's online media planning and buying division.
    Right, but you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    ANSWER: As part of our affiliate program management business and now Pepperjam Network we've been mindful of not working with affiliates that are / were involved in any form of illegal or clearly unacceptable activity...
    I highlighted the applicable part in RED.

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    our media buying division has indeed placed lead-based offers for our clients on those respective CPA networks, among many others.
    So please explain to me what "mindful of not working with" actually means?

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    I believe it is a stretch on your part to conclude ...
    Not a stretch of anything, just inconsistencies in your definitive statement(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    I can tell you this - Pepperjam has never been involved with any of the activities that they were being investigated for.
    Yes, I'm sure, but it's a far cry from, "mindful of not working with them".
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  16. #16
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Coley,

    I hope you're enjoying your during this fishing expedition.

    I'm hoping that someone steps in at some point and calls the dogs off because this is really turning into a witch hunt.
    What I find inconsistencies and now it's a witch hunt and fishing expedition? Your the CEO of an INC 5000 company, not kindergarden come on!

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Most of the questions are statements that are attempting to link Pepperjam to something unethical or illegal.
    NO, they are asking you to answer honestly, which you have and there are inconsitencies in that representation. Who cares about the legal issues with those cos ? I care about YOUR representations. ONLY that!

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    NEWS ALERT - You are not going to find anything.
    I'm sure we ALL just got a news alert, but it's not about any legal issues. That said, calm down, there are no claims of anything illegal, nor indicments, just inconsistencies in what you presented as FACT.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  17. #17
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    Kris, you're doing a decent job to answer all these questions. Nobody is trying to give you a hard time. You have clear up already a few misunderstanding, don't give up. If you're being asked these tough questions it's because all your activities don't look obvious from the outside. And if we're confused, more likely we're not alone.

  18. #18
    ABW Ambassador Daniel M. Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    FYI - I would love to be part of the next ABW panel at Affiliate Summit - I have some insights and opinions based on my experience here as an outsider that I'd like to share. I believe that sharing my personal experiences (positive and negative) would be very useful to making this a more productive affiliate community.
    Nothing personal, but I really don't see that happening. Given the prior experience you had here, coupled with the fact that you seem to have your cake and eat it too with regard to whether or not you'll pay for your section here, kinda makes me think you won't be invited to sit on the panel. Of course, they do love to take questions and comments from the audience, so that could work very well for you.
    Daniel M. Clark
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    Greg Hoffman Consulting

  19. #19
    Best New ABW Member 2007 sfcom's Avatar
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    I think again, at issue here is a little brand confusion. Exactly how many divisions does PepperJam have? What in your strategic marketing mind told you to keep them all under the same umbrella?

    If you are going to offer so many different services, sometimes it is better to have individual branding assigned to each one...not just PJ this or PJ that. You aren't big enough for that. Pick a name and make each division a separate company. Get individual websites for each one. Sure it is a little more hassle, but I think it would provide some much needed clarity as to what each division does instead of (pepper)jamming *lol* everything together with the PJ name.

    These are from the careers page on PJN:

    List of Divisions
    Affiliate
    Graphic Design
    Search Services
    Information Technology
    SEO
    Management
    Software Development
    Network
    Sales
    Media
    Finance
    Human Resources
    You can't be everything to everyone under one company. Surely you see where the confusion might stem from regarding who you work with and in which division.

    -sfcom


  20. #20
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    This isn't brand confusion, the man specifically said that neither as PJN nor as OPMs did they work with the cpa networks that are listed as "strategic partners".
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  21. #21
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Coley, I hope you're enjoying your during this fishing expedition.
    Yes, I am enjoying it. You've been spinning and spinning, and now you're being called out for "inaccuracies" in your spin.

    I don't have a dog in this fight. I've never worked with Pepperjam (that I can recall). I've never met you (although I did walk past your booth at Affiliate Summit several times, hoping to meet you). I'm still forming my opinions about you and your company. I haven't seen enough to say either "I won't work with them" or "I want to work with them".

    I do think you've done a good job (the second time around), overall. You've responded to just about everything. You've kept it (mostly) professional. I'm still not convinced which of your answers are accurate, which are spin, which are outright lies. But just the fact that you're here is a positive.

    I think you would have done much better if you wouldn't have cut bait and run after you launched your forum, and that you would do much better if you just cut out the spin. A little honesty about shortcomings in your network could go a long way toward convincing people of your sincerity.

    I still don't see much to distinguish your network from CJ, LinkShare, and Performics. Sure, there's a lot of talk about transparency, but it looks like it's primarily a crutch so that you don't have to do any policing yourself. (That's what I've read into your responses, anyway.) I just can't see anything that makes Pepperjam any better (or any worse) for affiliates than the big networks.

    Many here do seem to have strong biases against Pepperjam, and that certainly gives me pause. You can take a victim's stance and imply that it's all unjustified attacks, but I've seen enough to know that that is seldom the case.
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
     Affiliate Tips | Merchant Best Practices | Affiliate Friendly? | Couponing | CPA Networks? | ABW Tips | Activating Affiliates
    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  22. #22
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    They do work with Click booth and other CPA networks now. - http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=112014
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  23. #23
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Thumbs down
    .... and now they work with the POS DirectTrack CPA networks --

    The Pepperjam Network and Direct Response Technologies have formed a strategic partnership that now makes Pepperjam’s premium and high-performing campaigns available to all DirectTrack networks via the exclusive CrossPublication portal. Source
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  24. #24
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
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    This is the least surprising post I've read today.
    Kevin Webster
    twitter: levelanalytics

    Kayak Fishing
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  25. #25
    ABW Ambassador Joshua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    .... and now they work with the POS DirectTrack CPA networks --
    Haiko, there are plenty of upstanding, legitimate CPA networks using DirectTrack, and plenty of legitimate affiliates within those networks. In fact, my experience is that CPA networks are quite more effective at keeping out fraudulent affiliates than are Linkshare and CJ. I know plenty of networks that specify the allowed methods of promotion for offers, and if an affiliate promotes an offer that does not allow software on a software network, then that affiliate will not get paid. While I'm not the biggest fan of Pepperjam, I'm sure that merchants can opt out of this distribution. What I never see mentioned here is the significant value that running offers in CPA networks can offer merchants (which it can, and does). If you look on the link you posted, the sampling of offers on the page are typical CPA network style offers.

    As for your old statement regarding Azoogle being sued - Yes, they were sued for deceptive ringtone advertisements (more fault should lie on the advertiser, here), but settled that case. Azoogle actually has one of the strongest policies protecting advertisers on its network, out of any network that I've ever seen (epicadvertising.com/compliance/iap.php).
    Last edited by Haiko de Poel, Jr.; January 30th, 2009 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Kept off topic, removed hotlink to epic

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