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  1. #1
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    I've only been in the affiliate business a little over one year and in that time I've done pretty good. During this time, I learned many things including:

    *) Cookie details that were not disclosed (IE: "occurances" which "some" have stepped up and now finally disclosed).
    *) Parasitic relationships that are still not disclosed.
    *) Found out that some merchants don't track reliably and others track reliably but have massive reversals.
    *) Found it necessary to go thru a checkout process of a merchant before I even considered marketing them to see how many attempts were made to prevent a commisionable sale. I saw things I'd never imagine such as "call for a lower price", email us for a quote, HUGE - 1800 numbers, lengthy checkouts or even very combersome checkouts to confuse the customer and try and get the finally call in the order.
    *) Found merchants telling affiliates they were parasite free when they knew they weren't.
    *) Found parasites diverting cookies with out pop ups and others providing popups to divert my users.
    *) Watched the whole COC "supposidly evolve" into an agreement that was to protect affiliates and ban parasites not adhearing to the rules.
    *) Filed COC complaints well after the 60 day period was over only to hear "nothing" in response to the violations and see it occur over and over (even after I was told the problem was corrected).
    *) Have learned how some networks push the parasites on their merchants with out full disclosure.

    This isn't even close to a complete list of what I consider "very shady aspects" of this business.

    If thats not enough, I've learned of browser issues, seen popup blockers and cookie washers come into play and start growing which further dilutes our earnings and now I'm seeing a trend where spyware prodcuts are calling networks cookies as "privacy invading" and low risk spyware itself! Not only that, CJ has responded with saying "their description as correct"!

    Wow, I've been mulling this over this morning wondering how long my affiliate interests will really last with all this going on.

    I always knew the networks loved the parasites for reasons we all know (well most of us) but I had never really considered that the networks could give a crap about their cookies being deleted or labled as low threat spyware by anti-spyware firms without a single decent response that attempts to address this situation.

    The use of anti-spyware programs will proliferate in great detail in the future and along with all the others ways "we get screwed out of commissions" I can't help but be concerned that this business is going downhill "very fast".

    Is the networks "we don't give a crap" attitude and we can't respond to complaints file concerning COC violations just another indication of how much trouble we are really in?

    In mean think about it.... The parasites don't care about cookies in the overall scheme of things since "they capture every sale" regardless if it was an affiliate link or not.

    My own opinion has been the writing has been on the wall for some time about where the industry was heading but.... this seems to worsen timelines for us being able to remain competitive!

  2. #2
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    It will continue, it will just change. Just like making money on the net in '99 meant cpms, now it means CPA. What worked then doesn't work now.

    I do have that same feeling I had in '99. Time to cash in on what works now and bank that money for when what works - doesn't work.

    Chet

  3. #3
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Poon,

    A well thought out post. All the points you have made are valid. I will say this, that though the particular issues may vary, these are the types of concerns and challenges that all industries or professions suffer. Because when there is money to be made, there will always be those who are greedy and will cut corners, operate under unethical businesses practices, and basically adhere to the business model of "getting as much as we can while the getting is good." I have worked in different industries, and to be honest although the issues faced by affiliates are definitely of concern and grave in the threats they place to earnings, what I've seen in my other business dealings make some of this look like child's play. The point being is that it's out there in all areas of the business world.

    I think what is important for affiliates who care about their earnings and who wish to make money in this industry long-term, is to stay well informed with factual information as to what is going on and to be as proactive as possible in striving for productive positive changes within the industry.

    What does really baffle me about all of this is didn't any of the major players learn any lessons at all from the dot com bubble burst? Weren't any lessons learned at all from the mistakes that have been made in the past in the online advertising industry? It looks like the answer is no. Some seem hell bent for leather in traveling down those same pathes. They should be keeping their eye on where those pathes led to in the past.

    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador Jane's Avatar
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    If affiliates can't make money that puts cj, linkshare and the others out of business.

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    I think at the moment it is still quite cheap to establish an online presence.
    It will always be a viable business model to make money from internet sites promoting other merchants, or content sites feeding Google Adsense (or whatever replaces it as the paradigm shifts...)
    The point is, we need to be ready to adapt.
    There will always be a shady subculture skimming profits, so maybe we will always earn less than we are entitled to, but it still is a worthwhile thing to do.
    We can never depend on a model that is bringing in good money now continuing to do so - anyone prepared to adapt as the need arises will continue to be successful.
    Isn't that part of the appeal of this business?
    It's a lot better than having responsibilities and depending on a 'job' to keep the bread on the table - insecurity is endemic in all job markets nowadays.

  6. #6
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If affiliates can't make money that puts cj, linkshare and the others out of business.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    [b]Jane this statement is 100% incorrect and shows your lack of understanding on this issue./b]
    Parasites can infringe on "any content from any source" (affiliated related or not), and merchants allow them to shop lift commissions from users going directly to their sites. The networks still gets their percentage from all of these sales.

    I've heard the number "30 or so parasites" thrown around in a couple of threads lately. Let me ask you this.... Who "gets credit for sales" and makes more money for the networks:
    1) The 30 or so parasites?
    2) The millions of affiliates that compete with these 30 or so parasites.

    I don't really know the answer but I'll bet most people here would be SHOCKED at the results.

  7. #7
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 2) The millions of affiliates that compete ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Don't assume there are "millions" of affiliates. The number of active, productive affiliates might number in the tens of thousands at the most.

    Chet's strategy is the most prudent. Stock things away and be prepared to move with as the market changes.

    Radegast sums it nicely too "be ready to adapt.". Although I think it is better to always be in the process of adaption rather then preparing to adapt.

    The performance marketing industry is not ready to "collapse" but it is poised on the cusp of change. As you pointed out Poon there are numerous problems with the industry, but many of these problems have been around since the beginning, some are new difficulties.

    In some ways conditions have actually improved from the pre-2000 era. Despite some affiliates experiencing difficulty many affiliates are thriving, adapting and growing.

    regards,
    Wayne

    Wayne Porter
    V.P. Product Development
    AffTrack LLC.
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  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador Nova's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Chet's strategy is the most prudent. Stock things away and be prepared to move with as the market changes.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree and that is what responsible person should do no matter what kind of job or business you are in (through the net or outside the web!).

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Radegast sums it nicely too "be ready to adapt.". Although I think it is better to always be in the process of adaption rather then preparing to adapt.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Adapt is not hard to do or be ready with, but to adapt on the issue (scumware, tracking issue, upgrade that cost lost comish and the ultimate problem cookie...)
    we are dealing with right now is hard to adapt.

    But it doesn't mean not do nothing about it to fight to compete without undermining or manipulating the average affiliates!

    The round around, the sweet talk the professional tells us is getting old and I don't think alot of people are buying them anymore!

    I truly believe that if (maybe someday) the affiliate become organize we can get a break of the upcoming markets and adapt with out dealing who is stealing or manipulating our work!

    We have the control to expose the foul play and the lies that is going on through the net, we just have to organize it and do it!

    But of course it's just me talking!

    ------------------------------
    What does the COC stand for? Crooks Overwriting Commissions.
    Don't worry! Tracking is infected!
    ------------------------------
    Love Life to the fullest. we only get ONE chance! :-) !

  9. #9
    ABW Ambassador Jane's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The networks still gets their percentage from all of these sales.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Well your right I haven't spent a lot of time studying up on parasites but it seems the big outfits would work direct with the merchant. Why would they need networks like CJ to sit in the middle? The networks will either die or change with the times.
    Do I think everything will be the same in 5 or 10 years? NO. As one door closes another will open.

  10. #10
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    Poon,

    Take stock of your business and control what you can control. Not to say give up on issues or trying to influence them, but don't let the issue control your business.

    For example, you cannot control consumers deleting your cookies. Privacy conscious people have always done it and will always do it.

    Focus on your business and things you can control and directly influence with measurable impact:

    - whom you partner with
    - what terms you get
    - how much traffic you pull in
    - how much advertising you do
    - how much intellectual property you create



    regards,
    Wayne

    Wayne Porter
    V.P. Product Development
    AffTrack LLC.
    http://www.afftrack.com
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  11. #11
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    Wayne :<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I truly believe that if (maybe someday) the affiliate become organize we can get a break of the upcoming markets and adapt with out dealing who is stealing or manipulating our work!
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That should be the way to go. How do we get there?

  12. #12
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The number of active, productive affiliates might number in the tens of thousands at the most. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    OK...

    I've heard the number "30 or so parasites" thrown around in a couple of threads lately. Let me ask you this.... Who "gets credit for sales" and makes more money for the networks:
    1) The 30 or so parasites?
    2) The tens of thousands at the most "productive affiliates" that compete with these 30 or so parasites.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Focus on your business and things you can control and directly influence with measurable impact:

    - whom you partner with
    - what terms you get
    - how much traffic you pull in
    - how much advertising you do
    - how much intellectual property you create<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree with some of that that in part but the overall strategy is extreamly lame. You can rarely put on blinders to issues negatively impacting your business and be successful!

    I've heard you make that same kind of statement before and we just disagree here.

    You say if I don't like the thousands (or tens of thousands) merchants doing business with parasites then just don't do business with them and don't consider them as a partner to do business with. How many successfull affiliates do you do business with that adhear to this policy? I'd be willing to say it's pretty low.

    The parasites dirverted income prior to the COC, continue to divert monies after the COC and non enforcement of violations has become the standard and 60 days has long been over.

    My position is a simple one. If the COC did it's job, I shouldn't have to worry about who I partner with Wayne! [i]The fact that the COC will not "really respond" to complaints that have been filed and the parasites have an open book and time frame for "mistakes" to keep creeping in without fine, penalty or reprieve, it's pretty realistic, "I can't effectively compete with that".

    How many business do you know that are successfull because they don't put locks on their doors and they allow shoplifters to come in and take as much as they want without reprieve? Your suggestions seem to indicate you can resolve the problem by going out and buying more inventory or by doing more advertising? I dont think so.

    We're always revising our plans and taking steps to be successful long term and my plans are not entirely "affiliate marketing" but, as long as I have interests in affiliate marketing "worth protecting" I'll keep a key in my hand and make sure I lock the doors when I can!

  13. #13
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    Super stuff stirer,

    I am sitting here reading your post, and I say you have hit the bullseye from 1 mile away. Now I see that the usual crowd is in here trying to tear apart your concise, truthful and the telling it the way it is posting. Great Job! I wish I had your business writing skills!

  14. #14
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How many business do you know that are successfull because they don't put locks on their doors and they allow shoplifters to come in and take as much as they want without reprieve? Your suggestions seem to indicate you can resolve the problem by going out and buying more inventory or by doing more advertising? I dont think so.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No Poon that was not my suggestion. My general advice was keep building your business and not the let issues overwhelm you.

    regards,
    Wayne

    Wayne Porter
    V.P. Product Development
    AffTrack LLC.
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  15. #15
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wayne Porter- AffTrack:
    No Poon that was not my suggestion. My general advice was keep building your business and not the let issues overwhelm you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Educated affiliates like Poonster and others are what the industry needs (hence ABW). Stop suggesting that we [affiliates] let this be decided by the "powers that be" like they did with the CoC! GMAFB!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  16. #16
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No Poon that was not my suggestion. My general advice was keep building your business and not the let issues overwhelm you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Don't you get it? This issue does overwhelm me.

    The networks involved in the COC "are the police" over a huge part of my income opportunities from affiliate marketing. I expect them "the police" to refrain from allowing unethical practices and outright "diversion of income" and "diversion of visitors" via downloadable applications to occur in an area where credit card information is entered and financial transactions occur.

    If a cj cookie is determimed low threat spyware, what would a software application that constantly runs on a consumers pc and is designed to watch every move a user makes while online, and... has the ability to capture and store not only movements and habits but "CAN CAPTURE" sensitive financial information as well? Now, lets add in that they interject themselves at an appropriate time to directly interfere with or influence a sale where they can get a commission and does so by using content that someone else has prepared with the expectation of being paid for their efforts. I've heard you say before that parasites are not spyware and basically lobied for us to believe that.. Is that still what you think if a CJ cookie is labeled as spyware and even CJ themselves say the assessment is correct?

    You suggest that this shouldn't bother me? I disagree!

    When I consider the huge amounts of income the networks are making "by basically turning a blind eye" yup, I get concerned!

    If the networks involved in the COC are really "our police" for the online advertising opportunites they present to merchants and affiliates (which if they aren't who is?) it seems the effect of profits from non enforcement runs paralell to the police being paid off for proteciton for "non prosecution".

    I know..... this shouldn't bother me at all much less overwhelm me. Well, I've got news for you, it does concern me!

    The networks initally (and probably still have) a policy that outlawed downladable applications and much of the misdoings that have been going on. Uggh, why was that you think?

    Overall, they failed to take a stand when the rules were in their own terms of service and.... as you know I've said from almost the time the COC meeting was to be scheduled that I never expected them to adhear to any terms that may be created as part of the COC. So, I'm not surprised at the current state of the industry.

    That doesn't mean I don't wish there was a chance to "fairly compete" or that the current injustices will not be changed for the beter at some point.

  17. #17
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ?) it seems the effect of profits from non enforcement runs paralell to the police being paid off for proteciton for "non prosecution".
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Very apt and correct analogy!

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  18. #18
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    Of course we should be concerned about this issue, and do what we can to redress it.
    However, realistically, I don't see the problem going away, I see it getting worse.
    We have to adapt constantly to changes in the market, and the parasites will be equally adaptive...
    It has been stated in another thread that enforcement was never part of the COC agenda - it was just a cynical media exercise so the networks could be seen to be doing something.
    I think Wayne's point is quite reasonable - he's saying: do be concerned and do take steps to fight this problem, but don't let it become too large in the picture otherwise too much energy is expended in outrage and not enough in building on what works...
    My strategy is to build relationships with the ethical AMs here on ABW.

  19. #19
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Well my take on the state of the affiliate industry is you can stick a fork in it ...It's done for the normal web site affiliate. Every avenue to commissions from affiliate linked creatives has been mined and barricaded by the 30 BHO Dupers and the thousands of competing shady practice affiliates. Figure in the good merchants posting here at ABW are getting over exposed by the 10,000 active affiliates. Add in the few merchants left who actually have a person dedicated to running their programs wearing a salesman cap and the pickings look very slim.

    The S/W affiliates not only monetize all linking methods to a merchants site they also breed sleazy domain bound affiliate competitors, popup Ad blockers and Spyware/cookie cutter removal tools. Just like finding a 100% ethical merchant is difficult as the networks showcase the bad apple advertisers and downplay any prominent rating system hiding the real converters. I'm sure there is an AM ebook out on how to cheat or manipulate the CJ-EPC figures. Copies available from your favorite affiliate consultants with a successful diversion tactics chapter thrown in as a good faith offer.

    Factor in the skills and time and traffic expense it would take to build a truly bookmarkable shopping site to weather the storm and those 10,000 active affiliates will dwindle down to several thousand. Merchant AM's now love having a choice of cannon fodder affiliates alongside the BHO Dupers. Those same AM's refuse to put forth the efforts to duplicate the success of TD, EA or JC Whitney as they do not have the work ethic to make high conversion landing pages or auto-updated product showcases.

    Until the real merchant management sees the light and fire their AM employees or 3rd party AM management groups for letting them get double dipped and alienating their worker bee affiliate value-added sales force ....this industry is doomed to the greed monger auditrons. When the networks cease to be an active recruiting tool for finding 100 fresh meat affiliates to replace 1 active affiliate no longer making enough money to expend the effort they will become middlemen front ends for S/W affiliates. Back to square one. Affiliate networks are nothing more than a Doubleclick Ad server with a troublesome sales reporting backend.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  20. #20
    ABW Ambassador Doc Sawyer's Avatar
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    Wow, Thanks Mike!


    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Affiliate networks are nothing more than a Doubleclick Ad server with a troublesome sales reporting backend <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I see it the same way. The Good times are gone.

    Doc

    "An Optimist Can Never be Pleasantly Surprised" - Murphy

  21. #21
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Doc ..you have followed it all closely like me. I started yelling at the networks years ago to distance themselves from those with an advertising mindset that poisoned everything they touch. Advertising has no accountability, only subjective value determined by spin artists. Affiliate networks need transparancy and will suffer from trust issues as long as they are seem as cheap Ad vehicles by the majority of the merchants. Wait till the merchant management wakes you to that warm fuzzy feeling of realizing they've been raped by AM firms and BHO affiliates on Ad campaigns gone wild.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  22. #22
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    To bad some people aren't engaging here......

    All I'd like to add is that the next time some yahoo comes around here calling us a bunch of "whinny affiliates" and "unprofessionals" just point them to this thread so they can really see the work conditions affiliates have been effectively forced to work under and consider who has really has been unprofessional in this environment and who has been and continues to be "royally shafted".

  23. #23
    Full Member tmd5's Avatar
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    Hi Wayne,

    quote:
    ------------------------------------------------
    Focus on your business and things you can control and directly influence with measurable impact:

    - whom you partner with
    - what terms you get
    - how much traffic you pull in
    - how much advertising you do
    - how much intellectual property you create
    ------------------------------------------------

    I don't understand the last sentence. Could you explain what intellectual property I might be creating please. Is it just websites?

    "Can I sell the sh*t and will the merchant pay?" ~ Leader

  24. #24
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    Well, I'm new to this, and I haven't been following the market for several years.
    Ecom, Doc, Poon, I respect your opinions - do you see anything positive to throw to us?

    As far as affiliates being perceived as a vocal ranting minority - unfortunately it's very easy for the networks/merchants/parasites to portray us in that light - the fact that we're right has nothing to do with the way people who are not familiar with this industry perceive us...

  25. #25
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    There are over 5,000 affiliate programs, most parasite free, look for indys.
    There are free search engines with new ones coming ---> MSN.
    Affiliate marketing is still relatively new. First big affiliate program was Amazon in 96, there were others started around 94.
    More people shop online each year and that will only grow.
    Parasites are a problem but there are lawsuits going on. Parasites see merchant in address bar, then pops. Does framing merchant help this? Can somebody test this, lots of merchants have no problem with this. Pop up blockers. Do they help with parasite problem. Can someone test this? Maybe new parasite comes along and messes with current ones. Maybe people won't see rebate in their account, knowing they bought something. Potential problem for current shopping application affiliates? There are problems but the #1 reason affiliates don't make money is the affiliate themselves. Site not set up to close sales, affiliates don't use all promotions offered by merchants etc.

    There are problems, but there are problems with any kind of business. But i think the future looks good for affiliate marketing. Good affiliates adapt quickly and look ahead. Try lots of merchants, make more than 1 site, try different forms of advertising, do better than your competition. Affiliate marketing will be just fine, pay for performance has been around since the dawn of business and won't go away.

    "Nothing focuses the mind better than the constant sight of a competitor who wants to wipe you off the map."
    --Wayne Calloway

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