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  1. #1
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Performance Marketing Alliance
    Per Brook Schaaf's post on revenews it looks like he and a select group had dinner and discussed the formation of an industry association, we already have a thread in the Inner Circle, but would like some input from the various participants of said dinner as to what happened, what they have done, are planning and other specifics so that the ABW memberbase be informed as well.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  2. #2
    Visual Artist & ABW Ambassador lostdeviant's Avatar
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    I'd like to know who would be allowed to join. Would it be an exclusive club for USA affiliates or would it be open to the affiliate community? The "select group" concept always sets off alarms in my head.

  3. #3
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Also, I'd like to know why it was specifically and only posted at revenews and nothere - most (90% +) of the people who attended / even organized it are active ABW members, some even with forums.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador IOWNIE's Avatar
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    Wow! Rejected to enter the Inner Circle! Instead of making it an Association perhaps they should consider making it a Country Club

  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    500 posts to enter the IC Iownie, wait till you see the media room and wet bar back there ... wowsers!
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  6. #6
    ABW Ambassador Boom or Bust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    500 posts to enter the IC Iownie, wait till you see the media room and wet bar back there ... wowsers!
    Occasionally there's a really good movie!

    Waiting with bated breath to hear about the meeting...



    X

  7. #7
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Talking
    Industry Association Meeting
    I don't know, but maybe I may get, or should get a ban warning for this post.

    But... (Que me lleve la que me trajo if I am wrong about this!)

    but would like some input from the various participants of said dinner as to what happened
    Once bitten (there is a link here to this ), I still have an inquiring mind about the real final outcome of that famous dinner.

    Like they say... those that don't remember that past... are doomed to repeat it.

    Anyway, I am on a diet and I can't go to any dinner, also, I am broke..., so I can't and I would never pay for any (___ fill in the blank to join this new [make me money] affiliate union or whatever) new fad thing from any one, and I mean anyone.

    They also say that "Money talks , and walks, but since I have no money and I have no other serious bull to talk about, I rather wait for the next empty to come along.

    Believe me, I still have the time, and and the extra decades of experience to just wait for the right thing to come along, but...

    But... Lo que no fue no sera By: JoseJose

    Trust who? "El Rey" By: Vicente Fernandez? Why not!

  8. #8
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    A very wise man told me today:

    There is nothing like an association, to break apart an industry.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  9. #9
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    A very wise man told me today:
    There is nothing like an association, to break apart an industry.
    .

  10. #10
    ABW Ambassador 2busy's Avatar
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    Thumbs down
    I went to ReveNews to read more about their meeting, pretty sparse info there. Hints in the ensuing comments make me think that if they do organize I would be most proud not to be included.
    At the end of the article they advised folks who were interested to contact Rebecca Madigan at affiliateclassroom dot com.
    Searching for affiliateclassroom dot com brings up a Google page where McAfee SiteAdvisor alarms are going off. Says that site is linked to at least one unsavory adware site.

    Linked to red sites

    When we tested this site we found links to hypertracker.com, which we found to be a distributor of downloads some people consider adware, spyware or other potentially unwanted programs
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
    ABW Ambassador IOWNIE's Avatar
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    My 2 cents

    I think that ABW is already the "Association" and I can understand the reasons why it is not being promoted as such.

    However, the problem is.....if ABW doesn't do it someone else will.

    Look up who already owns AffiliateMarketingAssociation.com? Ring a bell? Nope, not to me either. Point is SOMEONE will create it and it WILL BE successful.

    Not to say there isn't room for both. ABW is made up of a bunch of INDEPENDENT entrepreneurs who are int his for that reason alone - to remain INDEPENDENT! Associations tend to have rules and policies ( AND DUES - YUCK ) but the MAJORITY of us will join because of no other reason other than because we can....and eventully because we SHOULD.

    So, I am suggesting ( not for the first time ) that ABW CLAIMS OWNERSHIP of the Affiliate Marketing Association even if it never really becomes what "they - the other guys" are trying to accomplish.

    I have a little experience in running an Association and I have to say that things are not what they used to be.

    STAND ALONE FORUMS are no longer adequate and with todays inexpensive technological solutions for providing a membership more than just a forum ..... tough decisions must be made to protect your future.

    I am not saying get rid of this current structure - JUST ADD ON TO IT.

    Grab a GREAT domain name like www.ama.gs (which is availble right this second) and make ABW into the AMA ( the PAID FOR MEMBERSHIP version of ABW ) What? You don't like the .gs? Stands for GREAT SOLUTIONS or GUARANTEED SUCCESS or whatever else you want it to stand for - afterall who really knows anyone who lives in the Great South Georgian Islands anyway?

    If there is any group of people who should be starting the Affilaite Marketing Association is should be the members of ABW ( those with more than 500 post of course )

    I have some AWSOME custom Association software I contribute!

  12. #12
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IOWNIE
    My
    If there is any group of people who should be starting the Affilaite Marketing Association is should be the members of ABW ( those with more than 500 post of course )
    I feel the same Iownie - The need is evident and personally, I trust Haiko to be an unbiased and ethical general in this army. Not many others I would willingly follow into battle or take "orders" from.

    I think that for an affiliate marketing association to succeed, it will need to be headed and run by very trusted parties. Haiko and the members at ABW would get my vote and I would gladly become a member and offer unwavering support.

    I said what I had to say in the IC thread about this and don't have the mental energy to try to repeat it. I was at the dinner in Camarillo and it was a very positive meeting. Everyone there had excellent input and seemed to have a genuine concern for our industry. I didn't feel there was a leader there who could handle the myriad complications and diversity needed to plan and execute what we were trying to accomplish, though. It was basically an initial gathering of concerned parties who brought their ideas and suggestions to the table.

    Oh yeah and most of us had a few drinks, too. LOL

    Peace,

    Rexanne

    Rexanne.com
    Loving Everyone's Child Creates Magic


  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador superCool's Avatar
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    Rexanne I agree - a very positive meeting.....and good drinks. Great to see you!
    _______________
    superCool is off to collect acorns

  14. #14
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superCool
    Rexanne I agree - a very positive meeting.....and good drinks. Great to see you!
    _______________
    superCool is off to collect acorns
    Rexanne thinks Supercool is trying to make her think she's gone crazy ...

    stop it. I don't need the extra push off the cliff! LOL
    Peace,

    Rexanne

    Rexanne.com
    Loving Everyone's Child Creates Magic


  15. #15
    Newbie Rolet's Avatar
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    The problem I see with making ABW the association - - mind you I am a STRONG ADVOCATE of ABW - - is purely based upon my knowing several very ethical, great affiliates who are not a part of ABW, each for their own reasons...I would worry that many would feel that they could not be a part of said association based upon that...

    Now with that being said, I think any association that is formed should absolutely include Haiko on the governing board, as well as Brian Littleton, as well as a few others, but as in politics, there should be a voting process, where paid members get to vote on those who are setting industry standards. As well, I think this association should concentrate on merchant education more than policing affiliates, at least to start. With merchant education, the unethical affiliates can be weeded out. If an association were to be formed, I would like to see a goal be one of an education process for all current merchants running affiliate programs. With the help of Kellie at Affiliate Fair Play and several ethical affiliates willing to divulge their websites, revenue numbers and marketing tactics, it could be shown side by side with unethical merchants, the stealing they are doing not only from other affiliates, but straight from the merchants. Thus starting the process of eliminating the bad guys at the source of their reward... Now mind you this purely my opinion, but as an OPM, I get tired of hearing about how a potential new client can join another Network other than SAS - not mentioning names - and get affiliates that will bring in income immediately. The process that I, as well as many other OPM's, have to go through in educating why the type of affiliates that will bring in this immediate cash flow are bad is asinine. If there were a consolidated location where educational materials were freely available for distribution by OPM's and AM's alike to educate, we could make a difference in the money that unethical affiliates are bringing in.

    Then again, I have a tendency to live in a world that I think everything can be fixed and made right.

    Also one more time - this is my opinion on a Saturday night at almost 1 in the morning, after a really LONG, BAD day...

  16. #16
    No Longer Banned!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolet
    The problem I see with making ABW the association - - mind you I am a STRONG ADVOCATE of ABW - - is purely based upon my knowing several very ethical, great affiliates who are not a part of ABW, each for their own reasons...I would worry that many would feel that they could not be a part of said association based upon that...

    Now with that being said, I think any association that is formed should absolutely include Haiko on the governing board, as well as Brian Littleton, as well as a few others, but as in politics, there should be a voting process, where paid members get to vote on those who are setting industry standards. As well, I think this association should concentrate on merchant education more than policing affiliates, at least to start. With merchant education, the unethical affiliates can be weeded out. If an association were to be formed, I would like to see a goal be one of an education process for all current merchants running affiliate programs. With the help of Kellie at Affiliate Fair Play and several ethical affiliates willing to divulge their websites, revenue numbers and marketing tactics, it could be shown side by side with unethical merchants, the stealing they are doing not only from other affiliates, but straight from the merchants. Thus starting the process of eliminating the bad guys at the source of their reward... Now mind you this purely my opinion, but as an OPM, I get tired of hearing about how a potential new client can join another Network other than SAS - not mentioning names - and get affiliates that will bring in income immediately. The process that I, as well as many other OPM's, have to go through in educating why the type of affiliates that will bring in this immediate cash flow are bad is asinine. If there were a consolidated location where educational materials were freely available for distribution by OPM's and AM's alike to educate, we could make a difference in the money that unethical affiliates are bringing in.

    Then again, I have a tendency to live in a world that I think everything can be fixed and made right.

    Also one more time - this is my opinion on a Saturday night at almost 1 in the morning, after a really LONG, BAD day...
    Rolet.

    A few very good points.

    An association should be open to all affiliates {Even those w/ only 2 posts} and the concern I have is the governing aspect to it. In any case Lost had made a good point here as well, and I would vote for Haiko as well.

    Scott: You are a very intelligent man. Nuff about that. I liked the vid. She must've been special.

    Ya know Haiko. Scott is right. Come to think of it. I hope you'll give it some serious thought bro. See you in Boston.

    Steve
    DreamLinux.net | Registered Linux User 453976 | PM me to view our sites. It's a Google thing.

  17. #17
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolet

    Also one more time - this is my opinion on a Saturday night at almost 1 in the morning, after a really LONG, BAD day...

    Meanwhile, you made excellent points and left good food for thought, Aunesty.

    I think even if ABW were to be the catalyst to launch an affiliate marketing association, it should definitely not be a prerequisite to be an active or even inactive member. I didn't think that's what was being said here but I could be wrong. It's late Saturday night for me too. :-)

    I liked your point about educating merchants and providing educational material for all who want it. My main reason for thinking we desperately need an organized body of individuals to *govern* (for lack of a much needed better word) the industry. There's much more and much less to it than what it appears without clarity and direction.

    I also think that we would benefit from input from all interested parties but membership won't be winning anyone a free pass. I would hope questionable tactics would be questioned and bad players exposed no matter who they are.

    I also feel that anyone who is presumed *questionable* should be able to add their input and defend their practices yet still be held accountable for playing dirty if an educated, unanimous vote says they're dirty.

    I don't think it would work if it were to become exclusionary or elitist - I could be off base there and would be open to hearing anyone's ideas about that because I think that would be a huge issue going forward, no matter who or what group puts an organization or association together. I would hate to see an "us and them" type of situation evolve because it wouldn't be indicative of the entire playing field and then the org. or assn. couldn't educate or improve the industry as a whole.

    Individual groups might spring up and that's OK, too although I think it makes more sense to include everyone who wants to be a part of it.

    Time to shut the computer and get out of this chair. Been a rough day here, too.
    Peace,

    Rexanne

    Rexanne.com
    Loving Everyone's Child Creates Magic


  18. #18
    Newbie HazelB's Avatar
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    I don't want to see the fox put in charge of the henhouse. If there is going to be an association for affiliates, it should be run by Haiku and not the powers that will use it to say things like ...
    "Tracking is not affected"
    "We'll do a make good payment for our transgressions based on guesses (in our favor)"
    "We see nothing wrong with our support of PayPerView(Zango) or PayPerInstall(Zango and worse) advertising."
    "Shut up and eat your sh*t sandwich and like it."(joke quote from an epn forum that felt real)

  19. #19
    http and a telephoto
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    I think the very first thing that needs to happen is we need a set of definitions that clearly states what the various parts and pieces of our industry does. What are "affiliates" or "publishers" or "OPMs" to start. What is an affiliate is going to be increasingly important, as well as defining the different types of affiliates and what their impact is on merchants. NYS made it clear that they really have no clue what affiliates are, what they do and how they relate to the businesses they work with.

    The word "affiliate" has many meanings and people NOT in our industry have different perceptions. We have thread upon thread where we bemoan and laugh about how we tell people what we do for a living, it's time that a set standardization of the terms is set down so that legislators have something to work from, a document that is accepted by the industry and that starts getting into the business community that tells what our industry is about.
    Deborah Carney
    TeamLoxly.com BookGoodies.com ABCsPlus.com

  20. #20
    ABW Ambassador CathyM's Avatar
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    standardization of the terms is set down so that legislators have something to work from
    IMO, the most important reason to develop the association is to work on the tax and political issues that affect our industry - both those that are here now and those that will develop in the future. I believe that in our lifetime, we will see all Internet transactions taxed and at that point it will be a level playing field for merchants. However, that is probably years away. In the meantime, we need to make sure that affiliates are not the scapegoats as they are in NY.

  21. #21
    Newbie Rolet's Avatar
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    I totally agree with Loxly here - clear definitions as to what an affiliate, a network, an OPM, an AM, Publisher and the many other terms that are used within the affiliate industry would be a GREAT jumping off place.

    HazelB - I think/believe an industry association she have a governing body that includes open seats for two (or more) individuals that represent the various bodies of that industry. In this case, affiliates, merchants, networks, OPM's and in-house AM's...everyone's perspctive should be included when setting industry standards...again just my opinion

  22. #22
    Newbie Rolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyM
    IMO, the most important reason to develop the association is to work on the tax and political issues that affect our industry - both those that are here now and those that will develop in the future. I believe that in our lifetime, we will see all Internet transactions taxed and at that point it will be a level playing field for merchants. However, that is probably years away. In the meantime, we need to make sure that affiliates are not the scapegoats as they are in NY.
    It is actually closer to happening then you think, thanks to the Streamline Tax Act, just two months ago there was a legistlative tax conference, where legistlators from all states met regarding the tax laws in each state and how to "streamline" them.
    Last edited by Rolet; June 8th, 2008 at 12:26 PM. Reason: mulitple typos

  23. #23
    ABW Ambassador CathyM's Avatar
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    It is actually closer to happening then you think
    You're right, it could happen any time, I think with a new administration next year and continued problems with the economy, it definitely could happen any time. My main point is that we need to have a group standing up for our rights as legislation develops.

    I would be much less likely to join an association if I felt their primary goal was to "police" bad affiliates.

  24. #24
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyM
    the most important reason to develop the association is to work on the tax and political issues that affect our industry
    Yes, as the economy goes to the toilet the states will look to convolute what is considered a nexus and then by creating that grey area expand their taxable base and increase revenues ... all states probably will try to follow suit if NY is successful.

    The actions and decisions of the org is not necessarily political, but more so geared towards the networks and coming up with a real action plan. I find it appalling that not a single word has come from CJ, LS nor PFX. This is nothing short of unacceptable. So while a PAC is something long term, I don't think it is necessarily the primary nor most important. There is a mile long "to do list" with the industry already. That said, merchant awareness, actual support and affiliate protection should be the immediate goal for any organized group.

    Quote Originally Posted by IOWNIE
    ama.gs
    I reg'ed iAffiliate.org the other day, I think that could work.
    Last edited by Haiko de Poel, Jr.; June 8th, 2008 at 12:52 PM. Reason: changed verbiage that could be seen as combative
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  25. #25
    Newbie Rolet's Avatar
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    I have been working with a couple of local state legislators - MO and KS, and a congressman from Kansas and a Senator from MO, regarding what NYS has done, I have nothing to report on, other then we are in the writing process of legislation on the local and federal level regarding internet taxes. The goal being that these bills will be able to be introduced at the start of the next legislative session...An association would definitely help this process, but not just on the writing the legislation, but rather helping the lobbying process once the bills are introduced, but as with any association, there is more than one area in an industry that it should be working on. Think the NEA - National Educators Association - each state has a chapter, as well as each school district, they not only help with the legislative issues, locally and federally, but contract negotiation, individual teacher support, and setting standards for the education field....Shouldn't our industry association do the same things?

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