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  1. #1
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Rhea's Avatar
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    Affiliate marketing is a virtual relationship and one must respect the animosity of the affiliate.
    Interesting slip of the tongue, there, Chuck.

  2. #2
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick
    Let me know how many affiliate interviews you have done this year?
    O.K. Chuck, I'll be sure to report to you on that! LOL.

    I see no useful purpose for the sarcasm behind your quip Chuck. From my view, I have no problem with the reality that you and I may see things differently. Though my opinion of what I "prefer" does not align with yours, I respect that we have a difference of opinion and I exercise that respect without sarcasm or resentment toward opposing views.

    On your repetious comments about affiliate anonymity in merchant / affiliate dealings...

    If you choose to ignore the difference in what I stated is my "preferred" way to do business with affiliates and what I "accept" (as I pointed out in previous posts) there's no purpose in continuing that discussion. Nor is that discussion pertinent to this thread, so let's keep it on topic - which is discussion of anonymity as it pertains to AV.

    Anonymity as it pertains to AV...

    Affiliate / merchant relations and the structure of the AV organization are two distinctly different issues. I am opposed to anonymity for the AV as there is no questiion that it undermines the credibility that should be attached to the organization. If you believe that it does not, feel free to offer your thoughts that substantiate that position and explain how anonymity acts to support the legitimacy of an organization whose purpose and message is to promote transparency and high road business ethics.
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  3. #3
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Tackling the Anonymity issue ...

    1. Affs Need to join with real name and addy, no disclosure of web properties or how they market - I'm not looking to harvest intel for re-sale.
    2. Affiliate Member list will not be disclosed nor rented nor sold in any manner (same policy I have with ABW).
    3. If Affiliate member is also a member of ABW or other, member they have option of disclosing such if they so wish, however user names or aliases are not required either.
    4. Affiliate members must vote under their real name only, such vote may be public or private, however affiliate voter will know if vote is public or private private to voting and any possible disclosure of their identity.
    6. Affiliate members may or may not, in their sole discretion, disclose via logo or other manner, that they participate in AV, it is their choice.
    7. Merchants, Consultants, OPMs, Networks and other will be listed - it makes sense for them to say publicly that they are members.

    Thoughts?
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  4. #4
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    Rhea, I should not post before at least two cups of coffee and always spell check. My FF plugin is automatic but this was done in Opera which I have to trigger. Don't think it was a Freudian Slip as I did not intend to say "ill will or resentment tending toward active hostility : an antagonistic attitude".

    Alan, it seems you refer to old fashioned business practices and that is where we disagree. Where I do agree is that our bantering is taking the thread off topic so lets move on.

    I will say that I feel members who can post, vote and contribute to the AV can do so anonymously but the principle, officers and spokes people have to be completely transparent.

  5. #5
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    A positive step in the right direction to support the image and credibility of the organization Haiko. Well done.
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  6. #6
    ABW Ambassador Daniel M. Clark's Avatar
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    Anonymity is a big part of affiliate marketing, no doubt. My question is: should it be? What other industry that moves billions of dollars is made up of people whose real names nobody knows? It's rather bizarre when you think about it. Anonymity is all well and good at a place like ABW or other forums because we're not conducting business here. But when it comes to actual business relationships - between affiliates and merchants (more often than not), merchants and networks, affiliates and networks... there is no anonymity. If you want to get paid, you have to give the person signing the check your real name and tax ID number. Anonymity is selective.

    And since anonymity is selective, and since an organization like AV is not a social club and is more aligned with a business relationship (see my earlier scenario with the Senator), I think that members of the organization must not be anonymous. Member anonymity can work against an organization such as AV - harming credibility and stability.

    Let's lay the cards on the table - AV (or any other org) is not going to be for everyone. It will be open to everyone, but there will be things about it that will not work for all people. If there are requirements for membership that are unacceptable, like if there's a requirement that you register under your real name, then don't join. I don't know if it will end up that way, but I will push to have that as a requirement.

    (Incidentally, I see this question as being semi-related to the structure of the organization, but maybe we could split it out into another thread to keep the flow?)
    Daniel M. Clark
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  7. #7
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick
    Where I do agree is that our bantering is taking the thread off topic so lets move on.
    There IS hope for you Chuck!! LOL
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  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador Daniel M. Clark's Avatar
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    Haiko, you posted that as I was writing. I agree with the points on your list - well done.
    Daniel M. Clark
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    Greg Hoffman Consulting

  9. #9
    http and a telephoto
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    Tackling the Anonymity issue ...

    1. Affs Need to join with real name and addy, no disclosure of web properties or how they market - I'm not looking to harvest intel for re-sale.
    2. Affiliate Member list will not be disclosed nor rented nor sold in any manner (same policy I have with ABW).
    3. If Affiliate member is also a member of ABW or other, member they have option of disclosing such if they so wish, however user names or aliases are not required either.
    4. Affiliate members must vote under their real name only, such vote may be public or private, however affiliate voter will know if vote is public or private private to voting and any possible disclosure of their identity.
    6. Affiliate members may or may not, in their sole discretion, disclose via logo or other manner, that they participate in AV, it is their choice.
    7. Merchants, Consultants, OPMs, Networks and other will be listed - it makes sense for them to say publicly that they are members.

    Thoughts?
    Excellent.
    Deborah Carney
    TeamLoxly.com BookGoodies.com ABCsPlus.com

  10. #10
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    Tackling the Anonymity issue ...

    1. Affs Need to join with real name and addy, no disclosure of web properties or how they market - I'm not looking to harvest intel for re-sale.
    2. Affiliate Member list will not be disclosed nor rented nor sold in any manner (same policy I have with ABW).
    3. If Affiliate member is also a member of ABW or other, member they have option of disclosing such if they so wish, however user names or aliases are not required either.
    4. Affiliate members must vote under their real name only, such vote may be public or private, however affiliate voter will know if vote is public or private private to voting and any possible disclosure of their identity.
    6. Affiliate members may or may not, in their sole discretion, disclose via logo or other manner, that they participate in AV, it is their choice.
    7. Merchants, Consultants, OPMs, Networks and other will be listed - it makes sense for them to say publicly that they are members. Thoughts?
    Sounds good to me.


  11. #11
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HecticDMC
    maybe we could split it out into another thread to keep the flow?
    I was going to do it yesterday, and plan on doing it with all off shoots that come to the thread ... this one definitely deserves attention as do the other points that will hopefully be raised.

    That said I'll split the thread around 4pm EDT, that will give enough of the subscribers to the thread to respond [on anonymity issue] in the same thread and not get lost.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  12. #12
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick
    Rhea, I should not post before at least two cups of coffee
    It's called having "Blood in the caffeine stream" ... (said to me by a remarkable lady, HEY! )
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador sjangro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    Tackling the Anonymity issue ...

    1. Affs Need to join with real name and addy, no disclosure of web properties or how they market - I'm not looking to harvest intel for re-sale.
    2. Affiliate Member list will not be disclosed nor rented nor sold in any manner (same policy I have with ABW).
    3. If Affiliate member is also a member of ABW or other, member they have option of disclosing such if they so wish, however user names or aliases are not required either.
    4. Affiliate members must vote under their real name only, such vote may be public or private, however affiliate voter will know if vote is public or private private to voting and any possible disclosure of their identity.
    6. Affiliate members may or may not, in their sole discretion, disclose via logo or other manner, that they participate in AV, it is their choice.
    7. Merchants, Consultants, OPMs, Networks and other will be listed - it makes sense for them to say publicly that they are members.

    Thoughts?
    If you're going to list merchants, OPMs, etc. somewhere, why not allow affiliates to specify whether they're listed or not?

    And if you're going to give that option to affiliates, why not make being listed optional for all members?

    I can't see why merchants, etc. (or even affiliates for that matter) wouldn't want to be listed, but at least it would be the same policy for all members.

    I'm talking about name/company, not contact info.
    Contact info should be a separate option to make visible or not, again for every member.

  14. #14
    Believe knight01's Avatar
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    In reference to anonymity and published membership rosters. First, I'm not a lawyer and have no knowledge of this topic, hence the question.

    If AV is a 501(3)(c) non-profit organization, doesn't it have to list the names of it's donors/contributors/members for public review? I suppose if it is truly a charity it can have anonymous donors, not sure of the tax implications of that. But I don't think AV would fall under the laws of a charity as it's more a professional organization.
    Someday starts today
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  15. #15
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
    I decide when the pigs fly!
    Rhea's Avatar
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    Hey Chuck, I totally understand. I'm a caffiend, too. Can't get the brain and fingers to synch at all until I've had several cups of liquid heaven.

  16. #16
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knight01
    In reference to anonymity and published membership rosters. First, I'm not a lawyer and have no knowledge of this topic, hence the question.

    If AV is a 501(3)(c) non-profit organization, doesn't it have to list the names of it's donors/contributors/members for public review? I suppose if it is truly a charity it can have anonymous donors, not sure of the tax implications of that. But I don't think AV would fall under the laws of a charity as it's more a professional organization.

    Do not know, but by the same token, membership in the association would not necessarily link a name to a membership id here at ABW, either....
    Following everyone else is a GREAT way to become average.

  17. #17
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjangro
    If you're going to list merchants, OPMs, etc. somewhere, why not allow affiliates to specify whether they're listed or not?
    Right, I said "Affiliate Member list will not be disclosed nor rented nor sold in any manner (same policy I have with ABW)." Sorry I should have said, members who are affiliates, your right.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjangro
    And if you're going to give that option to affiliates, why not make being listed optional for all members?
    OK, I'll make it optional, not a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjangro
    I can't see why merchants, etc. (or even affiliates for that matter) wouldn't want to be listed, but at least it would be the same policy for all members.
    I could see why some (in each category) wouldn't want to be listed but I agree, same policy options across the board.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjangro
    Contact info should be a separate option to make visible or not, again for every member.
    Agreed.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  18. #18
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knight01
    If AV is a 501(3)(c) non-profit organization, doesn't it have to list the names of it's donors/contributors/members for public review?
    I said it will be a non profit, I prefer the 501(6)(c) classification ...
    The 501(c)(6) is specifically reserved to Professional and Trade organizations (Associations and Societies), chamber of commerce organizations, economic development corporations, real estate boards, trade boards, professional football leagues (e.g., the NFL), and other types of business leagues. They are characterized by a common business interest, which the organization typically promotes. Organizations under this category are exempt from most federal income taxes. "Membership Dues" for a 501(c)(6) are tax deductible as business expenses, however any percentage of these used for political activities (like lobbying) is not tax deductible. The organization must report what percentage of these "dues" is not deductible.

    501(c)(6) organizations may engage in limited political activities that inform, educate, and promote their given interest. They may not engage in direct expenditures advocating a vote for a political candidate or cause. Donations to 501(c)(6) organizations are not required to be disclosed.

    Source
    Bold added by me.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  19. #19
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knight01
    perhaps publishing the membership list is left to the discretion of the organization?
    That is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by knight01
    I do wonder, if you request your name not be published, would you lose any tax deduction for membership dues?
    As I understand it, it's a business expense (trade association membership) so it's deductible and any donations above the membership dues are also deductible and anonymous.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  20. #20
    Best New ABW Member 2007 sfcom's Avatar
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    Lots of good talk regarding the secret identies of affiliates. I think that we should remember the effectiveness of an affiliate is not adjusted if they choose to remain anonymous. They can push just as much converting traffic regardless.

    As a network rep or OPM, you are in a managerial position. As such, it requires that people be able to know you. Another requirement is to market your services. It is kind of hard to do so if you sign your e-mails as "bigbluegoober" or "starlight18". Now, if affs were able to sign up for networks without using their real names and socials, then we would be in trouble. But, as it stands, they know who we are and have everything they need to get in contact should they need to. The same would go with AV. Real name and contact info on file to be used on an as needed basis only and (from what I understand) it would never be left out there for the SEs to index, ever.

    I personally have some good reasons to keep my name out of the SEs. That is the major reason why I eventually decided that pursuing the OPM biz wasn't for me. It just wasn't worth it to me to give up my name and contact info to be indexed in the SEs which would be beyond my control. Nope, I am not hiding anything. The people who send me checks know my full identity. I do talk about it to those who really need to know (a few here at ABW know.) But, for those who don't know...please just understand that it is not as simple as avoiding spammy phone calls from people marketing unwanted garbage, it can sometimes go deeper than that. I'm sure there might be others who are in a similar situation and that is why I made this post.

    -sfcom


  21. #21
    Outsourced Program Manager TrishaLyn's Avatar
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    In the same vein, what about people who serve multiple functions within the industry? Pick one and stick with it in terms of registration or multiple registrations or what?

  22. #22
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    The anonymity discussion as far as AV is concerned is taken care of as I understand it. In an earlier post today Haiko said that he was going to break the anonymity issue out as a different thread for those who want to further that discussion aside of the AV thread. I'd imagine he got a little busy playing video games or polishing that crown he wears when no one is around. LOL
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  23. #23
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Crown cleaned , thread Split.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  24. #24
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrishaLyn
    In the same vein, what about people who serve multiple functions within the industry? Pick one and stick with it in terms of registration or multiple registrations or what?
    I think it would be fair that each person paid for each respective function.

    So let's take loxly as an example ... Just because she's a multifaceted person ... She's an OPM, a merchant and aff all at the same time.

    She'd need to pay Each fee to recieve the benefits of each level to recieve the respective benefits for that level ... or two or just one ... it's up to her (or the applicable potential member).

    Make sense? Thoughts?

    I don't have a list of the exact benefits of each level at this moment but they will be published when it's formulated.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  25. #25
    Best New ABW Member 2007 sfcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Hamilton
    The anonymity discussion as far as AV is concerned is taken care of as I understand it. In an earlier post today Haiko said that he was going to break the anonymity issue out as a different thread for those who want to further that discussion aside of the AV thread. I'd imagine he got a little busy playing video games or polishing that crown he wears when no one is around. LOL
    That was a small part of the reason why I posted when I did, I knew he would split it and the bump might bring it back into focus. The other was because I want others to understand why affiliates deserve their public anonymity if they so choose. Maybe it already has been decided, yes. But, it doesn't mean I can't post my take on it anyhow, right?

    -sfcom


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