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  1. #1
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    New Association, Ethics, Haiko & The Wall....
    I sat in on the meeting that Haiko stormed out of. Though I missed his message, I stood up and made my question be known to a room full of applause.

    The question was:

    I am not well spoken, and I don't make 1m USD/ mo. How can you assure me that after all these rich guys start giving you money, that my voice will still be heard, that I won't just get ploughed under ?

    This is based on the fact that Haiko is the only person I believe that will offer any sort of creditability to the newly formed association with the smallest members on ABW {for those who take an interest} and perhaps at all and the fact that Haiko is not only a driving force in the industry but also the fact I have watched this play out time and time again elsewhere in my years pursuing my previous career.

    Briefly stated, an association needs big bucks to roll, and this means that Bob Novack is correct, there gonna hit the big uns for 50k and us little guys for 50 USD a pop. Hence the little guys needs will be invisible as always.

    Now Bob Novack [spoke with] me at the meeting again, and I was feeling a bit uptight after words and so I saw the mid 40's panelist with the thick framed glasses [MODS: please add dudes name here~~~________] and I basically told him that this wasn't my first rodeo.

    Heres the conversation we had in the exhibit floor:

    me: the only way you will ever get creditability with small affiliates is to go back and get Haiko to be on your panel. He is not doing that, so he is mad at you for some reason.

    him: {smiling at me} ~ I don't control that but I can suggest it.

    Me: once you start taking money from the big doggs you are gonna represent them and forget us. lets face it.

    him: You are x# of thousands of members at 50 USD a pop, whereas they are a very small # at 50,000 a piece. So the small guy is going to have the same representation as the big guys cuzzz the amount of money taken in is the same [even between] [both groups].

    me: You know as well as I do that the big sugar daddy's are gonna want some concessions for there 50 grand. [Otherwise why are they gonna give it to you ?] and you're gonna give it to them and you know it.

    him; [body language that I don't understand]

    me: I went on a long story about how I know what I do. I have seen this play out with other associations.

    him; I don't control that but I can suggest that.

    me: some members suggested that half the guys up there are in bed w/ the Parasite [Donuts: Citation needed] and if you really want to show your [a good guy basically] then you need to pass a law stating that anyone who is on the [panels] board that is in bed with the parasites should face stiff sanctions and a second law stating that it is against the associations policy to offer special treatment to members and that all members will be have an equell voice.

    him: [his head was vibrating in anger]

    me: I guess I've said all there is to say on it.

    him; [sounding rather calm] I guess you have [blah blah blah]. I took it that he does not give a shit. {Correction from you sir ?}

    These are the three things that I am asking any new aff. assoc. to add to there by laws.

    Honestly I not only thing this will be met with resistance, I am asking any one to please support me on this issue.

    Regardless if this assoc. winds up solvent or not, this does not matter, we can't wait till the laws are written then decide to act.

    As for dude. Do you wish to address this issue here ? I think you need to.

    Bottom line Cowboy: if you are ethical, prove it. put your money where your mouth is son. Pass the laws I stated above and get Haiko on that board. ASAP.

    Steve
    Last edited by Steve Williams; August 14th, 2008 at 08:51 AM. Reason: Texas Spelling Spree....
    DreamLinux.net | Registered Linux User 453976 | PM me to view our sites. It's a Google thing.

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    The "dude" you talked to had a nametag on. Had you paid attention you would have remembered or written down that name if you were going to share your conversation with him here.

    Those involved in the formation of the PMA were willing to sit up in front of people and take questions. They also hung around after and had conversations with audience members.

    I want people in an organization that are willing to have conversations no matter how heated, not people that get mad before the conversation even gets started and leave.

  3. #3
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    The reason I left was simple.

    I entered the room and specifically sat next to the microphone, then after numerous sound checks the AV guy took the microphone away, and controlled both mics on the foor. After the panel was introduced (almost like a miss America contest - pure ridiculousness) The AV gentleman was giving the micrpophone to all that Rebecca instructed him to, people in the audience (PMA people) were retorting with the microphones as the panel wasbeing overly nebulous - the were aren't so we can't stuff again. I wanted to ask questions but with the microphone in the control of the AV guy who was under strict orders of Rebbecca (the moderator) that wouldn't happen, so I said forget it, and left.

    BTW, I later confirmed with the Audio visual guy that yes indeed he was under strict orders to only give the mic to whomever Rebbecca said, he apologized but said he was only doing his job.

    I have it all on video, I'll upload it later.

    So Connie it was the lack of availability of a true discussion that made me leave, besides, nothing was done, nothing had been formed, nothing nothing nothing, even if I had stayed, what would have been discussed, more nothingness. I'd rather go outside and get some sunshine.

    BTFW, I am out of all PMA discussions, [unless I'm attacked, more lies or disinformation is injected] they will fail on their own faults,I will not be their scapegoat, additionally I will not do anything about affiliate voice either.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    The reason I left was simple.

    I entered the room and specifically sat next to the microphone, then after numerous sound checks the AV guy took the microphone away, and controlled both mics on the foor. After the panel was introduced (almost like a miss America contest - pure ridiculousness) The AV gentleman was giving the micrpophone to all that Rebecca instructed him to, people in the audience (PMA people) were retorting with the microphones as the panel wasbeing overly nebulous - the were aren't so we can't stuff again. I wanted to ask questions but with the microphone in the control of the AV guy who was under strict orders of Rebbecca (the moderator) that wouldn't happen, so I said forget it, and left.

    BTW, I later confirmed with the Audio visual guy that yes indeed he was under strict orders to only give the mic to whomever Rebbecca said, he apologized but said he was only doing his job.

    I have it all on video, I'll upload it later.

    So Connie it was the lack of availability of a true discussion that made me leave, besides, nothing was done, nothing had been formed, nothing nothing nothing, even if I had stayed, what would have been discussed, more nothingness. I'd rather go outside and get some sunshine.

    BTFW, I am out of all PMA discussions, [unless I'm attacked, more lies or disinformation is injected] they will fail on their own faults,I will not be their scapegoat, additionally I will not do anything about affiliate voice either.
    Haiko

    Obviously these guys have hit the Wall with you {Since YOU ARE the Wall]. I just don't see how this org. will succeed w/o you sir, or why you won't put your foot down. I am not up to speed on all these facts sir, I admit that. I don't expect or demand that you do. Rather, I am pretty charged up that these guys have alienated you.

    I am certain you have your reasons, though I am adiment in the belief that this association will have no creditability with out you. Esp. w/ small members.

    Connie

    Please DO NOT respond to this message.

    I am on my way to a show in Indiana, I have unpacked and repacked my back pack w/o time to sort through the in fo. I will request the name be added once I get a chance to dig it out unless someone sees it first and decides to add it.

    Thanks sir.

    Steve
    DreamLinux.net | Registered Linux User 453976 | PM me to view our sites. It's a Google thing.

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    Steve since this is Haiko's forum and not yours I will respond as long as he allows. You don't dictate to me.

    Haiko I just want to say that I honestly don't think there was any microphone/Haiko conspiracy. Yes the A/V people are told to give the microphone to whomever is leading a discussion points to. I go to many conferences, this is almost always the case. I also know that just because there is a microphone stand, the microphone is seldom in it, the people go around with it to the people who ask questions.

    I had hoped that no matter what you would have stuck around and made sure whatever you had to say would be heard. If there were some kind of plot as you suggest, would it have not proved it more if you had sat with your hand up and no one came to you with the mic? I realize it is all heated but I do think many could have handled things better, on both sides. And I find it sad to say that there are "sides".

    I also find it sad that the people trying to organize this get attacked, when the organization is not even formed yet, not ready to take any action. These people on the committees are not necessarily the ones who will be in charge. I say let the process continue, wait and see. I have not decided whether I will support the PMA or not yet, but I am willing to wait and make an informed decision when all is set up and I see who is in the final group and how they take charge.

  6. #6
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    It isn't up to Haiko, it's up to us.

    Big or little fish. We stand up to these folks by staying strong here and by staying strong with each other.

    It's how we run our busineses, how we choose our merchants, our networks, it's which forums we belong to. We can in a million little ways support our viewpoints and support each other.

    It was obvious how the mike was being controlled. It was obvious how the room was being controlled. That's the name of the game not just there - in life. Come to a meeting to be open, but have nothing to be open about. Then innocently chastise the people who are concerned about the back channel, and complain about the heat in the room. I spent too many years in politics not to know the game that was being played.

    But I stayed and watched and learned - even asked a question. They couldn't ignore you when you stood at the mike. I needed to - Haiko didn't. He already knew all the players.

  7. #7
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Connie,

    Please read what I wrote, you obviously missed it the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    So Connie it was the lack of availability of a true discussion that made me leave, besides, nothing was done, nothing had been formed, nothing nothing nothing, even if I had stayed, what would have been discussed, more nothingness. I'd rather go outside and get some sunshine.

    BTFW, I am out of all PMA discussions, [unless I'm attacked, more lies or disinformation is injected] they will fail on their own faults, I will not be their scapegoat, additionally I will not do anything about affiliate voice either.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    Haiko, have to leave for the airport from Boston soon, travel day but wanted to just say that your walking out disappointed me. I really think there are too many conspiracy theories, assumptions. We don't know what would have happened if you would have spoken up and frankly I was looking forward to seeing what would have transpired. I know what they had to say, but I didn't get to hear what they had to say in response to you. I feel almost cheated. I really wanted to see what would go down and know many others did to. We were waiting for it and I feel let down by you.

  9. #9
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Steve,

    If they don't address your needs or even care about them, or worse keep giving you left handed answers, I'd definitely suggest staying away.

    Remember the Yahoo acronym ... You Always Have Other Options

    Besides NY affiliates already proved that if affs join together they can solve their own problems, they don't need an organization to do that, since they won't even take responsibility for anything, every thing that is brought up is either their isn't anything yet or it's a conspiracy.

    They will fail and miserably (actually they already have) then I'll open up AffiliateVoice if there really is a need.
    Last edited by Haiko de Poel, Jr.; August 14th, 2008 at 11:03 AM.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  10. #10
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamingoworld
    Haiko, have to leave for the airport from Boston soon, travel day but wanted to just say that your walking out disappointed me. I really think there are too many conspiracy theories, assumptions. We don't know what would have happened if you would have spoken up and frankly I was looking forward to seeing what would have transpired. I know what they had to say, but I didn't get to hear what they had to say in response to you. I feel almost cheated. I really wanted to see what would go down and know many others did to. We were waiting for it and I feel let down by you.
    Yeah, I ruined their plan, sometimes the writing on the wall is done in neon signs. I didn't disappoint nor cheat anyone, they did because they didn't tell them a convincing reason why anyone should join.

    So because I took the high road I let you down ...OK thanks for thinking so highly of me.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  11. #11
    Full Member Jim Guinn's Avatar
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    Haiko,

    I commend you on your action at the meeting, and I would like to see that video. If people of high standards don't take a stand, this "organization" will only turn out to be like so many....run on the self interests of it's "leaders" while forgetting its populace. I, for one, would like to see you open up AffiliateVoice now.

    Jim.

  12. #12
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Either the PMA doesn't get it or they don't care to get it. Disrespecting Haiko is the same as disrespecting ABW and its members. Disrespecting ABW is the same as disrespecting its members and Haiko. That's how closely we identify with each other, the forum and Haiko.

    And another thing -- Haiko didn't "storm out." He got up and left in a dignified, quiet manner.

  13. #13
    Best New ABW Member 2007 sfcom's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think professional courtesies should be given when discussing one's high-profile actions. Phone, PM, email, etc. In other words, just because it can be written about here doesn't mean it needs to be. While in the end, it reads like a good soap opera, it usually doesn't accomplish much besides alienating each other and turning an otherwise good day into a bad one.

    I have been guilty of it a few times myself. Sure, you are free to write about anything you want here but how productive will it be? Or will it just turn into another this side vs that side thread? One thing I had learned from AS is that we have a lot of great people here at ABW. All of this constant conflict, bickering, and disrespect is hard to handle for anyone though, besides the lurkers. We write and participate in these threads at our emotional expense just so they can have something that reads like a tabloid when they get bored or need something to get a mean-spirited chuckle out of?

    We are ABW. We are better people than what the past few months have shown us to be in our posts. And, for my part at least...I apologize.

    -sfcom


  14. #14
    ABW Ambassador Daniel M. Clark's Avatar
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    I'd like to clarify something.

    Affiliate Voice is officially "back-burnered" or put on hold, then?
    Daniel M. Clark
    Tech Manager
    Greg Hoffman Consulting

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    I would like to clarify this - so Haiko did you have your hand up to ask a question and they didn't come to you? If you didn't raise your hand then it is really just you saying what you assume to be true.

    I think they fully were expecting you to speak and were ready for it from my conversations with some of the people up there. I find some of this quite unfair to the PMA people who were willing to get up there on that stage fully expecting tough questions, to say that they weren't willing to answer questions.
    I honestly think there was no way some people were going to be happy. I think some went in there with certain feelings and no matter how it went they were going to find fault or create situations to make things look bad.

    I have had a few conversations at Summit about the PMA, am still not sure if I want to support it, but all of my questions were answered that I asked.

  16. #16
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    FWIW, the PMA working groups and advisory boad members are well aware of the need for every aspect of the industry (merchants, networks, affiliates, etc.) to have a voice. If anything, I think they will be leaning toward giving affiliates more of a voice than the networks and merchants. I don't remember who said it during the session, but someone pointed out that affiliate marketing is an ecosystem between the merchants, networks, and affiliates. That's a great point. All three must exist and prosper for affiliate marketing to do the best.
    Michael Coley
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    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  17. #17
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    It seems that affiliates are an elusive bunch (just try to recruit them). How will the PMA solicit affiliates? Via their merchant members, networks, etc? Affiliates, with few exceptions, will not promote an association. I am concerned that a few hundred affiliates will join and represent the potential hundred of 1000's who call themselves affiliates.

  18. #18
    ABW Ambassador Boom or Bust's Avatar
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    I believe an organization such as PMA will be benign in accomplishing any effective impact on the industry. PMA will have no clout to influence any one of the different sides of aff marketing to change or adopt it's principles.

    An example of an organization that HAS effectively changed America is one that I personally detest, the ACLU. They've utilized the clout of legal proceedings to motivate others to adopt their agenda. I believe that strategy is the only one that will bring about any effective change.
    Last edited by Boomers; August 28th, 2008 at 05:03 PM.



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