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  1. #1
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Pepperjam, the real story of transparency
    Hey,

    Congrats on the new NetShops contract.

    Quick question, what measures, if any, has GAN incorporated to help protect affiliate sales tracking for netshops since they also run on Pepperjam and well, there are nine months of unanswered questions relating to their tactics and "transparency" including having questionable subaffiliate ID networks like Clickbooth as affiliates in the network as well as known parasites like ShopatHome Select ? It's Q4 and I just want to make sure that GAN and it's affiliate base are protected from overly zealous Q4 opportunists.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    Hey Haiko, I talked to some people from ShopatHome Select at the Google Summit, they swear they are all clean now and always follow the network terms and conditions.

  3. #3
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamingoworld
    Hey Haiko, I talked to some people from ShopatHome Select at the Google Summit, they swear they are all clean now and always follow the network terms and conditions.
    LOL maybe they are dressing up as sheep for Halloween, but they'll probably show their fangs at Christmas once again

    That and CPA networks within peprjam network are real issues! Those guys use highly questionable tactics and with software that misbehaves so all the links could belong to PJN scum affs, totally un-benounced to GAN and their affs. I'm not questioning GAN nor their affiliates, only asking what they plan to do to protect their interests as well as their affs in light of the REAL issues of non compliance by certain players on the Pepperjam network.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamingoworld
    Hey Haiko, I talked to some people from ShopatHome Select at the Google Summit, they swear they are all clean now and always follow the network terms and conditions.
    Yes, they told me that when I was the AM at CafePress too. They later said "Well, we can take you out of the software...." when I still told them no.
    Deborah Carney
    TeamLoxly.com BookGoodies.com ABCsPlus.com

  5. #5
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    It's a serious issue with any affiliate program that is available on multiple networks. The way multi-network tracking usually works is that the merchant keeps track of which network generated the most recent click and they will only display the tracking pixel (or include in the batch) for that one network. That's all great if there are no bad players on any network. But when one network in the mix has a bad player, that bad player can steal sales from affiliates on the other networks.

    The only way around this is for networks to require merchants to always show their tracking pixel.
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
     Affiliate Tips | Merchant Best Practices | Affiliate Friendly? | Couponing | CPA Networks? | ABW Tips | Activating Affiliates
    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    Hey,

    Congrats on the new NetShops contract.

    Quick question, what measures, if any, has GAN incorporated to help protect affiliate sales tracking for netshops since they also run on Pepperjam and well, there are nine months of unanswered questions relating to their tactics and "transparency" including having questionable subaffiliate ID networks like Clickbooth as affiliates in the network as well as known parasites like ShopatHome Select ? It's Q4 and I just want to make sure that GAN and it's affiliate base are protected from overly zealous Q4 opportunists.
    Pepperjam Network does NOT run any offers from Clickbooth.

    Google, Linkshare, and Commission Junction all have relationships with Shop At Home Select.

    Thanks for your careful research Haiko and your continued bias toward anything that isn't associated with Pepperjam.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamingoworld
    Hey Haiko, I talked to some people from ShopatHome Select at the Google Summit, they swear they are all clean now and always follow the network terms and conditions.
    Connie - you are absolutely correct.

    Haiko just took this opportunity to once again bash Pepperjam without any legitimate justification. It just further's our argument that anything he says about us at this point has a distorted bias.

    Bottom line - GAN works with Shop At Home Select and for the reasons you mention above ("they've cleaned up their act") they should be working with SAHS.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    LOL maybe they are dressing up as sheep for Halloween, but they'll probably show their fangs at Christmas once again

    That and CPA networks within peprjam network are real issues! Those guys use highly questionable tactics and with software that misbehaves so all the links could belong to PJN scum affs, totally un-benounced to GAN and their affs. I'm not questioning GAN nor their affiliates, only asking what they plan to do to protect their interests as well as their affs in light of the REAL issues of non compliance by certain players on the Pepperjam network.

  9. #9
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Pepperjam Network does NOT run any offers from Clickbooth.
    He wasn't talking about you running Clickbooth offers. What he said was "having questionable subaffiliate ID networks like Clickbooth as affiliates in the network".
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
     Affiliate Tips | Merchant Best Practices | Affiliate Friendly? | Couponing | CPA Networks? | ABW Tips | Activating Affiliates
    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  10. #10
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Pepperjam Network does NOT run any offers from Clickbooth.
    As Michael pointed out, having Clickbooth and other CPA networks as affiliates is the issue, please don't insult out intelligence with more left handed answers. Just to make it easy for you ... is Clickbooth an affiliate within the Pepperjam network? Yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Thanks for your careful research Haiko and your continued bias toward anything that isn't associated with Pepperjam.
    Kris, don't flatter yourself, I have a bias towards anything that is detrimental towards affiliates and their earnings, if that happens to include pepperjam then so be it. I responded to the GAN moderators' postings of the Netshops programs and a real and valid concern for any affiliate who may join.

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Haiko just took this opportunity to once again bash Pepperjam without any legitimate justification. It just further's our argument that anything he says about us at this point has a distorted bias.
    Kris, as I said I'm not bashing, this is a real concern. If GAN can't protect their affs from your sub id CPA networks pushing the same merchant via questionable tactics then they are essentially working for free, GAN would be as well. Anyone in the space can see the issue please don't continue to accuse me of doing anything wrong, because I'm not. My Bias is for good of the industry, not making my merchants sales by hook or by crook.

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Bottom line - GAN works with Shop At Home Select
    That's only a section of the line, what about your affiliated sub id CPA networks? they are the ones to save your bottom line ... that's our concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Once again with the ? Geez, give it a break. I saw you and half your team in this thread all day yesterday, you expect me to respond in minutes on a Saturday morning? GTFR.

    Remember, the question of the day ... is clickbooth or other sub id affiliate networks affiliates within the pepperjam network ... yes or no? That's all you have to answer, the rest of the question will be answered by GAN moderator who was kind enough to PM me yesterday saying that they are investigating (TY GAN moderator).
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  11. #11
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    My thoughts:

    There are a lot of merchants in more than one network. I know this because I have to have dual, sometimes quadruple+ listings for some merchants for ForMeToCoupon users because everyone prefers different networks for whatever reason.

    Because of this, I really feel instead of this question being posed to only GAN, it should be posed to all networks. It also has nothing to do just with PJ. It should be neutral, about any and every network. Almost all of the networks except Avantlink, Buy.at and SAS work with the shady players. How are all the networks going to protect us agains ALL the shady players?

    While I am not happy with PJ right now, lack of response to my needs, broken links, links not going to proper landing pages, no expiration dates on coupons etc. (which makes it pretty useless to me) etc, I do think it seems unfair to constantly single out PJ for when other networks are just as bad.

  12. #12
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    The question has been simplified ... does PJN have sub id networks as affiliates? That would affect these twelve new GAN merchants (from netshops) that are also have offers on PJN. I'm not reaching or discussing other issues, all they have to say is answer yes or no. It affects GAN and all affiliates that join the Netshops program. So, quite frankly this isn't a question of being fair or unfair nor to single out PJN, this is a question relating to merchants that are running dual programs on both GAN and PJN. It's also not up for affiliate speculation, it's a question of facts and what the network (GAN) is going to do about the issue. Nothing more.

    --------------------

    So Kris. Once agin, Yes or No, do you have sub id affiliate / CPA networks as affiliates in your network?
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    This issue would also relate to several new GAN merchants that are also on CJ. We will have to agree to disagree, I am not a PJ supporter, nor am I sticking up for them, but I do think instead of narrowing it down to focus on one group we are seeming to "pick" on them when they are not the only issue. I don't want GAN just focus on protecting our PJ dual merchants, I want reassurance they are protecting all my merchants in all or any other networks. I also pose the same question to all networks, not just GAN.

  14. #14
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Connie,

    Please stop deflecting my thread if you have other issues with other networks or affiliates do so in another thread. Thank you.

    ------

    Kris,

    So Kris. Once agin, Yes or No, do you have sub id affiliate / CPA networks as affiliates in your network?
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  15. #15
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    Haiko - The answer to your question is YES.

    However, the irony of your question is the FACT that GAN works with similar sub id affiliate / CPA networks to Pepperjam Network. So does Commission Junction and Linkshare.

    As Michael mentioned in his presentation at Affiliate Summit - Boston, for Pepperjam Network it's about disclosure and transparency.

    Ultimately, on Pepperjam Network it's the advertiser's decision, not Pepperjam's whether they decide to partner with coupon affiliates, PPC affiliates, CPA Networks, bloggers, etc. We require disclosure and we do our best to provide the advertiser with as much information as possible to make a decision up or down about any given affiliate. For instance, advertiser's on PJN have advanced tools that allow them to automatically approve or deny an application based on promotional method (among other things), including CPA Network. If an advertiser doesn't want to work with a CPA Network it's copletely under their control.

    If GAN allows CPA Networks as partners and PJN allows CPA Networks as partners the real question is whether or not NetShops will partner with CPA Networks.
    We clearly can't talk for GAN, but on PJN if NetShops doesn't want CPA Networks as affiliates it's very easy for them to make sure these types of affiliates aren't allowed in their programs.

    Kris

  16. #16
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    flamingoworld - thanks for your neutrality.

    I e-mailed you regarding an update to our coupon technology. Thanks for your patience.

    Kris

  17. #17
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Great to finally start hearing some answers!

    So did PJN start working with Clickbooth before or after this March 11 post where you said they did not and never had.

    Earlier in that thread, you said that CPA Networks will typically have a transparency rating of 0 or 1. Can you confirm that no CPA Network has your highest transparency rating (5?)? If any do, please explain.
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
     Affiliate Tips | Merchant Best Practices | Affiliate Friendly? | Couponing | CPA Networks? | ABW Tips | Activating Affiliates
    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  18. #18
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Yes, Kris, thank you for finally being transparent. I'm sure we appreciate straight answers.

    1) Now, along these same lines, do you care to tell us how many CPA networks?

    2) Additionaly, when you quote you have 10 or 12K I forget the number, are you in fact adding the affiliates of those CPA networks to yours to come up with that 10-12K figure?

    While your at it I've actually got a few questions for you if you could spare some time today, no emotion, no attack, no childishness, just open question Q&A ... get the facts out there once and for all. --- I've gotta strike the transparency pan while it's hot and you've already acknowledged that I've done my "careful research"

    BTW, I've corresponded with GAN moderator and they said that they can't disclose, for obvious reasons, how they monitor and protect against fraudulent affiliates. As such I'm going to rename this thread and move it to the Pepperjam forum as it's about Pepperjam now.

    Edited to add I'm going to number my questions so it will be easy for you to answer them, no need tomince words, simple answers will suffice.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  19. #19
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Earlier in that same thread, you made a distinction that I found quite interesting, that being:

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    ANSWER: As part of our affiliate program management business and now Pepperjam Network we've been mindful of not working with affiliates that are / were involved in any form of illegal or clearly unacceptable activity...
    3) So does that mean that indeed Pepperjam did work with Azoogle as an Affiliate - this meaning specifically you promoting their offers?

    You Also stated that:

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Of course, there are numerous affiliates that we don't allow in Pepperjam Network. For instance we do not approve affiliates that are involved in any form of illegal or clearly unacceptable activity.
    4) Does that include typosquatting?

    5) Has pepperjam ever typosquatted?

    6) Do you allow Sex sites?

    7) Have you ever had or run a sex based site?

    Once you answer these 7 I've got just a few more for you, please kepp in mind that I have as you said, done "careful research.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  20. #20
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    Smile
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelColey
    Great to finally start hearing some answers!

    So did PJN start working with Clickbooth before or after this March 11 post where you said they did not and never had.

    As I mention above - Pepperjam Network does not work with Clickbooth. No offense to Clickbooth - we just don't have a relationship with them.

    I asked my team about working with CPA Networks and I was told that in order for them to work with us that the T & C's of the network are examined to make sure that they are not inconsistent with PJN's T & C's. Apparently Clickbooth has not made it out of that review process yet.

    Earlier in that thread, you said that CPA Networks will typically have a transparency rating of 0 or 1. Can you confirm that no CPA Network has your highest transparency rating (5?)? If any do, please explain.
    It is true that most if not all CPA Network will have a low transparency rating (3 or lower). If any CPA Network has a higher transparency rating it would be because that CPA Network has established a track record of quality and transparency with PJN advertisers.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    Yes, Kris, thank you for finally being transparent. I'm sure we appreciate straight answers.

    1) Now, along these same lines, do you care to tell us how many CPA networks?

    Let me say that CPA Networks are not active affiliates on PJN - this is probably because we have a no tolerance network quality team.

    As I mentioned above our position on working with CPA Networks is that one of our legal counsels review the T & C' of each CPA Network to make sure it isn't inconsistent with PJN's T & C's.

    In terms of how many CPA Networks we work with - I'm not sure why that is a relevant question. The bottom line is that if they meet our standards they can come in, but they are required to DISCLOSE that in fact they are a CPA network. We then empower the advertiser to decide whether or not they want to allow CPA Networks into their program - this ability is made available at time of application.


    2) Additionaly, when you quote you have 10 or 12K I forget the number, are you in fact adding the affiliates of those CPA networks to yours to come up with that 10-12K figure?

    No.

    While your at it I've actually got a few questions for you if you could spare some time today, no emotion, no attack, no childishness, just open question Q&A ... get the facts out there once and for all. --- I've gotta strike the transparency pan while it's hot and you've already acknowledged that I've done my "careful research"

    BTW, I've corresponded with GAN moderator and they said that they can't disclose, for obvious reasons, how they monitor and protect against fraudulent affiliates. As such I'm going to rename this thread and move it to the Pepperjam forum as it's about Pepperjam now.

    Edited to add I'm going to number my questions so it will be easy for you to answer them, no need tomince words, simple answers will suffice.
    Haiko - the funny thing about this move is that GAN in effect is left off the hook and Pepperjam Network gets to be help to a higher standard. It's a fact.

    God forbid if you scare GAN off of ABW.

    Also - we don't work with Clickbooth, as I mentioned, so you misnamed the thread.

    However, feel free to ask your questions.

  22. #22
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    It is true that most if not all CPA Network will have a low transparency rating (3 or lower). If any CPA Network has a higher transparency rating it would be because that CPA Network has established a track record of quality and transparency with PJN advertisers.
    8) Isn't the transparency rating within the network - IOW they disclose and that info is verified by network. How does an aff get a better "transparency" rating if they disclose to merchant? Please explain, how could Clickbooth (in this example) get a rating of 5?
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  23. #23
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Haiko - the funny thing about this move is that GAN in effect is left off the hook and Pepperjam Network gets to be help to a higher standard. It's a fact.
    Yes, your right.

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    God forbid if you scare GAN off of ABW.

    GAN has nothing to hide, as I said we had correspondance over the weekend. I'm satisfied.

    Quote Originally Posted by pepperjam
    Also - we don't work with Clickbooth, as I mentioned, so you misnamed the thread.
    9) So your admitting that they are in the network, but you contend that you do not work with them? If that is indeed the fact then I'll be more than happy to rename the thread and issue a retraction.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  24. #24
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Admin Note: I've renamed the thread in interest of fairness to pepperjam.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    Earlier in that same thread, you made a distinction that I found quite interesting, that being:

    3) So does that mean that indeed Pepperjam did work with Azoogle as an Affiliate - this meaning specifically you promoting their offers?

    We have never worked with Azoogle on or through Pepperjam Network.

    You Also stated that:

    4) Does that include typosquatting?

    Refer to my question above.

    5) Has pepperjam ever typosquatted?

    I have recommended publicly and stand behind the fact that bidding on typos is part of an overall strategy to PPC marketing. However, at no point have I ever said that bidding on typos (or trademarks) that are against advertiser T & C's is ok - in fact, it's not OK since it's a violation of program T & C's.

    6) Do you allow Sex sites?

    no.

    7) Have you ever had or run a sex based site?

    no.

    Once you answer these 7 I've got just a few more for you, please kepp in mind that I have as you said, done "careful research.
    Careful Research - yeah right. You are asking accusatory questions. The sex questions are over the top.....dating back to when I was an actual affiliate from 1999-2002 I never got involved in promoting sex. Clearly, since then we haven't gone anywhere near sex. Asking me that question in such an accusatory tone is offensive.

    Let me ask you a question?

    Have you ever been arrested?

    BTW - I've done my careful research.

    Haiko - Please tone down your questions if you'd like my participation.

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