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  1. #1
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    I'll be the first to admit that a toolbar in and of itself is not a bad thing. However, many are designed solely with the intentions of deploying some type of parasitic action.

    It know appears you can have your very own customizable toolbar for under a $100 (and in some cases much much cheaper). If you think new parasites are popping up at an alarming rate now..well it's nothing now. What's worse, this is an option that some affs have considered. The "if you can't beat them join them" mentality.

    Some excerpts from one site where for $99 you can buy the software to make your own toolbar for distribution (and they even have their own affiliate program):

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guarantee you are leaving money on the table because you don't realize how other companies are using this technology to increase their revenue.

    Make money from promoting affiliate programs in your toolbar

    2 Powerful ways to increase your revenue with your toolbar. (Hmm wonder what those could be)

    4 major ways to get thousands of people to download and use your toolbar (Again wonder what those could be?)

    This feature allows you to enter in the affiliate id of one of your super affiliates, joint venture partners or your own affiliate id. You will be able to use this to create custom toolbars for your super affiliates and joint venture partners to give your toolbar away to their customers.

    This feature alone is worth several hundred dollars alone. It allows you to have your toolbars update itself automatically. You will be able to easily update your toolbar's buttons, menu items, URL's, icons and logos.

    grab your piece of your market's browser real estate before your competition does.
    (alas...the future)

    Using this feature you will be able to have my toolbars take an action based off the current URL the toolbar's user is visiting. For example: If the toolbar's user is visiting a competitor's site you can make the toolbar show a popup window to the user's computer.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Any consumer who thinks they actually OWN their computer, browser, and desktop is living a myth. At such low prices to have your very own parasite, this is going to get real ugly before it gets better.

    I find it very diconcerting to hear affiliates talk about taking this route (as a matter of point I got the link for the excerpts from this particular program from an "affiliate friendly place" where folks were giving their support for toolbars). IMO, it's a very short sighted approach to the problem of infringements by others. Where are any of us going to be when the consumer just gets totally feed up with the driveby downloads, computer crashes, privacy issues, etc and decide it's just easier to get in their car and go shopping. Their computer just becomes an expensive means to access email. Afterall, they will only have about 2 inches of viewable reading space left for their browser.

    So here we go again with yet another threat to our industry. Hopefully the majority of affiliates will be farsighted enough not to cut off their own noses and everyone elses as well.



    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador Jane's Avatar
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    I have the google toolbar so I can see page rank. It would be really hard to get me to use another toolbar escpecially if it has advertising on it. Don't think we have much to worry about here.

  3. #3
    ABW Veteran jc101's Avatar
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    The only toolbar I'm using is google's... and that is all I"m going to use.

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  4. #4
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    "affiliate friendly place" where folks were giving their support for toolbars"

    Is that the place that gets about 14 posts every 24 hours? That place is its own little island.

    "you can make the toolbar show a popup window to the user's computer." Won't pop up blockers stop this? I don't see toolbars much of a threat, the majority of people that have them, have websites. I think as time goes on, the average user will become more aware of this sort of thing and would want clean running computers, just a matter of time. People don't like spam, popups, etc, and it will change for the good.

    [This message was edited by TrustNo1® on August 08, 2003 at 10:53 PM.]

  5. #5
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    What is ultimatley going to be the demise of most of these toolbars is the fact that after people download them once, and discover the problem they create, they'll remove them and never download them again. Indeed, I no longer download anything off the net - and I suspect more and more people are becoming like me after discovering the little "problems" that go with free software downloads.

    It will take a while, but eventually, I think most people will stop downloading most free software altogether.

    Jim

  6. #6
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Ermmm..ok. But check your logs and see how many times hotbar is showing under user agent. I'll bring it up again in December and see if folks still don't feel it's a threat. BTW, you can program in a cookie washing feature.... Hmmmm, well I've seen how easy it is to selectively delete cookies with the spyware washer programs.

    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador phillyburbs's Avatar
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    [Begin ]

    I mentioned this in another thread [where Mike & Charlie quoted an outstanding piece about SPAM on MSNBC.com], but the crux of it bears repeating here.

    The folks on this board are not typical Internet users. Again, WE are not typical Internet users. Ask yourself this question: How often do you click on a pop up window? Chances are, very rarely. However, the average Web surfer is much more likely to click on a pop up than a banner or text link.



    The bottom line is that our behavior does not mirror that of the general Web population.



    I think anyone dismissing Ms. B's warning with a mere "I'd never do that" is making a grave error. Most of us don't use pop ups heavily. Most of us don't SPAM. Most of us don't get involved with parasites. Yet enough do all of these to make them exceptionally profitable. This is the latest get-rich-quick scheme and some people are going to cash in before the public at-large gets wise to it.



    I know too many people who surf the Web daily who, when I mention parasites or pop-up blockers look at me like a puppy who has heard a high-pitch whistle.

    Ignore at your own peril.

    [End - ]

    Karl Smith
    phillyBurbs - Your Internet Starts Here

  8. #8
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    Typical internet users don't download toolbars. I can't see my parents downloading an Alexa toolbar or any other toolbar. What you are seeing now and will only grow are typical users getting tired of all this crap. Take AOL for example, getting better with SPAM and having pop-up blockers built into the AOL browser. ISPs have the filtering turned up so high that even legit newsletters can't get through(a bigger threat IMHO than toolbars). Typical users hate SPAM and pop-ups, thats a fact. If anything i think people would go for something like a Google toolbar that blocks popups, than one that spawns them. Just a matter of time before word gets out and people take back control of their computers.

  9. #9
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    http://www.interevco.com/mediakit/ho...it-hotbar.html

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>800,000 Hotbar users <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That's only one toolbar. And it is parasitic. Do you actually think that if the toolbar is revenue stealing, they resort to only legitimate downloads? I'm not talking Googlebar. I suppose all those users of MMM, whenu, gator, etc wanted it to. I was under the impression that many got more than they bargained for when they installed (ie bundled with something they wanted) or were on the receiving end of a driveby download or a trickler install.

    Why are toolbars any different than a BHO install? Actually a BHO component can be part of the toolbar.

    Do a search and see how many toolbars are out there now. Then check them against any parasite list. Now you can have your own for under of $100.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just a matter of time before word gets out and people take back control of their computers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The whole parasite issue is solved then. We just sit back and wait for the end user to get tired of it all. I hope there are some affiliates (aside from the parasites) still in business by the time the end user figures it out.

    I've sure been wasting my time.

    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?

  10. #10
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    Yes i'm saying the typical user is getting tired of popups and SPAM. Yes im saying the typical user is getting smarter everyday and desire a clean running computer. I know of typical users getting very pissed at finding whats on their computer and how it got there, and letting friends and family know about it. Yes it sucks, but i think it is just a matter of time. Parasites are a problem but not the main reason an affiliate will go out of business. If you go back and read during the Morpheus days, some top affiliates here posted they saw no difference in income during and after they stopped overwriting/misdirecting links.

    http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...1&m=3756065021

    Right now i'm not worried about any toolbar, a bigger threat to me right now are spam filters stopping my newsletters from getting to my opt in subscribers.

    [This message was edited by TrustNo1® on August 09, 2003 at 02:29 AM.]

  11. #11
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    Trusty, I see it the same way as you, but I am going on down the road: for me it seems to be a real war between the spammers and the antispammers, the parasites and the antiparasites, and the more different their programms are the more they block each other. And this could be the end of that war: the web is blocked and therefore other, private webs will be developped, so that we have 10 or 100 internets.


    carneol

  12. #12
    ABW Ambassador Jane's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>800,000 Hotbar users <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I find most people selling advertising inflate their numbers. I have yet to see anyone selling advertising that will actually show you their stats. Even if they have had 800000 downloads you can bet a lot of those have been deleted.

    Looking at hotbar.com and the stuff it lets you do, who would want this? Kids mostly and most of them don't have credit cards. How many people shop from their office computer and aren't allowed to put trash on their computer. Maybe we should worry more about the programs that let bosses spy on their workers and the ad blocking software.

    The average affiliate is not going to create a toolbar and get thousands of people to download it.

    Because of parasites and bad tracking we will never get 100% of our commissions but I don't see this toolbar as a major threat in the hands of the average affiliate. As big as hotbar is, I don't see it as a major threat either.

    go to zdnet downloads and read the reviews on hotbar. 88% say it sucks

  13. #13
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Time for the networks to address the "install" methods of the S/W affiliates. #1 ...all affiliates (Dupers included) caught doing drive-by or hidden bundling of their parasiteware programs are immedietly termininated from the networks and forfeit all commissions. The game currently calls for any form of "infection" as the BHO wannabees seek ways to kidnap systems.

    Hijacking your browser is no different then hijacking your car to strip it for making money on selling the parts. Do a search for Freebee/freebie and every sleeze bag affiliate on the face of the planet will show up in the results.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  14. #14
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Well without looking too terribly hard, I've already found some affiliate (cj, bf, ls, etc links) sites which offer their own toolbar.

    1. I sure hope they have registered themselves with the networks as an affiliate that uses software download apps for COC compliance review and notification to merchants....

    2. I sure hope testing does not show any overwrites of other affiliate cookies

    3. I'll be very disappointed if these sites belong to ABW members. But then life is full of disappointments.

    I've found gobs and gobs of toolbars which are questionable but will require install to determine if they are doing anything they shouldn't. I'm also curious as to what the custom Alexa toolbar does when another affiliates amazon link is clicked on.

    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?

  15. #15
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    BLFH have you ever done any testing on framing merchant links? Don't know exactly how this stuff works but i thought that the downloadable applications now look for the merchant in the address bar, if you frame them, they won't see this. Person goes to my site, clicks a link, goes to merchant site, and still sees my domain in the address bar. You would be suprised at how many merchants don't have a problem with this, Overstock and JCWhitney don't have a problem with this. Maybe it is just that simple.

    "Nothing focuses the mind better than the constant sight of a competitor who wants to wipe you off the map."
    --Wayne Calloway

  16. #16
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    Good idea. As far as I know it is not against the COC when the merchant agrees.
    a refresh could( same result in the addressbar) have that code:
    .META HTTP-EQUIV="Refresh" CONTENT="0;
    URL=http://www.qksrv.net/click-xxxxxx-rrrrrrr?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yyyyyy.com".

    A frame could have that code:

    .FRAME SRC="http://www.qksrv.net/click-xxxxxx-rrrrrrr?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yyyyyy.com"" FRAMEBORDER="NO" NAME="main" MARGINHEIGHT="0" MARGINWIDTH="0".


    carneol

  17. #17
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> BLFH have you ever done any testing on framing merchant links? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes. I've looked at this technique and it's been discussed off and on in some threads. It will protect in some cases (browser dependent) with apps such as topmoxie. How much protection will dependent on your particular user browser mix. I have seen the technique block the affiliates cookie being set however at times. I'm not certain how effective it is/is not for the toolbars however. I've done minimal testing with them because they can be much more difficult to get off your system and some have more of a tendency to reinstall themselves. So I've been reluctant to install them on this computer. I'm setting up another system to put them on and test with.

    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?

  18. #18
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    As someone who doesn't like to look at an issue from only one side, I did some research a while back on running (you read that right) one of these thingies. My idea was to have one that works like the Google Toolbar only use MY site search for the results. But no parasitic activity, ie, overwrites, pops, etc.

    Here's what I came up with after careful consideration:

    I ran across some of those sites BLFH is talking about--the ones that offer a "cheap, fully customizable toolbar".

    First, "fully customizable" seems to be a rather bendable term!!! For instance, you can choose which search engine to pull search results from out of their list. Woo-hoo! But when I looked for an ability to integrate MY site search as mentioned above--Forgeddaboutit!

    Half of them look so half-baked and amatuerish that nobody'd want to download 'em. And I didn't want to brand myself as "that &*(% site that had that download that crashed everything!"

    The only ones that looked worth a darn were NOT cheap, at least judging by their site design. THOSE didn't come out and *say* a price...

    I didn't see one cheap site that said the webmaster could auto-update it. So, whatever you release is out there--forever, whether you like it or not! Terms change? COC suddenly grows teeth? TOO BAD SO SAD! When that happens, enjoy the reversals, because there won't be a way to bring the CheapieBar into compliance!

    Then there's the other costs involved, the ones that aren't evident on a toolbar site:

    A lot of merchants now won't touch a site with a toolbar. Look at how many merchants do NOT touch this stuff, in that list of CJ merchants that was linked to from here a couple of weeks ago! So if someone runs one of these, they are *stuck* using the same merchants the Big Budget Parasites are. It'd be like putting a Tonka Toy in a monster truck rally, especially if the littler toolbar doesn't use parasitic means.

    GETTING DOWNLOADS is also going to be a problem! And I mean a BIG problem! I got curious when I read about how parasites are bundled with other apps and decided to check that out more. After all, screensaver-programmers aren't sticking WhenU in there with the desireable part for the *love* of the place!

    Some of these places are paying 50c A DOWNLOAD! Want to see your bar on 1,000,000 computers via bundling? Get out your half-a-million and start writing checks...

    If you don't OFFER SOMETHING SPECIAL there's no reason for anybody to download it (if it's not bundled with something else). So, do you, Give up a lot of your commish to try to compete with eBates' rebates? Or do you, try to come up with a better weather app than that weather place (or a better clock, that's another gimmick)? Or do you go to the trouble and possible cost of making up some more desireable "free" download and stick the other thing in there with it? (With #3 you still have to promote the Free thingie, so that's just shifting the promo cost/effort to something else!)

    In other words, you need lotsa money or a great gimmick to get many downloads.

    TRAFFIC QUALITY SUCKS as evidenced by the complaints against FindWhat's Hotbar searchers. So if you don't want to be a lowdown thief and overwrite code, be prepared for a lot of DUD clicks.

    The Double Standard. The little site with a bar will probably get kicked out of every network from CJ to Joe's TrackingShack.

    Which merchants are most likely to accept a crooked download? Merchants who are most likely to do crooked things themselves, I would guess! Like Not Track, for instance. Some of them probably don't care if eBates sticks their code on everything, even direct type-ins -- because the Tracking Code is off 90% of the time anyway! Or, they'll Reverse Everything. I'm just waiting for the day when eBates steals about $1M of commish and then gets a sheetful of Ugly Red Figures for the trouble because the merchant is just as big of a crook!

    Last but not least, there's the Total Ostracization at ABW which would erupt. Better find that board Paul Nichols is on, cuz it'll be too hot HERE...

    All in all I'd say there's a lot of downside to running a toolbar.

    I still see nothing wrong with having my site search in a bar, but I wouldn't make it a Pillar of the business. But I see no reason to just *give* Google and Amazon/Alexa a monopoly on search toolbars IF a decent one showed up for general availability.

    Oh, BLFH--if you think things are scary with toolbars *now*, here's one last thought to light your night. One of the sites that pioneered toolbars just might release a

    FROOGLE toolbar...


    It is a beautiful thing, to do nothing, and then rest afterwards.~Spanish Proverb

    [This message was edited by Leader on August 09, 2003 at 09:03 PM.]

  19. #19
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
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    Just thought I would tell about my recent toolbar experience...

    I left AOL and went to Earthlink DSL. They have something called "pop - up blocker" and I thought I would try it out. I had to download their program CD called "Total Access" to get it. Well, it installed a toolbar that was a pain - it blocked out my Google pagerank (oh no!!) but the worst thing was the "spam filters."

    The setting that it came with blocked all cookies from my merchant links. So I went in to properties to see what was the matter and to make it quit I had to set it at the lowest setting. You would think that would have solved everything but it still was blocking the banners with no way (that I could find) to fix that.

    Wound up uninstalling it after one day.

    Vicki

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    It can pierce through dust no matter how thick. dylan

  20. #20
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Amazing revelations here on some of the WMD threatening to bring down the affiliate marketing industry. The greed mongers and Ad whores on one side and the over protecting privacy, anti-popup, adwarez & spam crowd on the other. Normal affiliate and honest merchants caught in the middle.

    This industry needs a lobotomy to remove the advertising mindset module implanted during the .com EyeBall era. Shame on the advertising industry, and their network cohorts, for devising ways to kidnap browsers & Windows to rape merchant's pocketbooks. The sleezebags at the top of the commission foodchain drive the minions below to new lows.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  21. #21
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    @ Mike.

    Long live Advertising and its excitement and creativity! Excesses aside, nobody's going to sell sh*t without letting people know it exists--ie, ADVERTISING it!

    It is a beautiful thing, to do nothing, and then rest afterwards.~Spanish Proverb

  22. #22
    Affiliate Summit Guy Shawn Collins's Avatar
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    What do you all think of an affiliate making a toolbar available to their membership?

    A toolbar that doesn't remind or pop-up anything - strictly a navigation tool that includes a pulldown menu with a list of merchants where the user can earn points for shopping with them.

    In the past, I've investigated having an adware reminder tool created for ClubMom members, but I never went too far with that, because I was concerned about the potential of overwriting affiliate links.

    But with a toolbar where the user had to initiate a visit to a merchant, the overwriting issue would be taken out of the equation, unless I am missing something.

    Thoughts?

    Shawn Collins
    ClubMom, Inc.

    http://www.affiliatemanager.net - tools and resources for affiliate managers

  23. #23
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    As I said in my first post, not all toolbars are necessarily evil. The thing that has to be looked at is if the toolbar infringes on others earnings in anyway.

    Shawn, I'm not sure if I completely understand what you mean by "navigation." Is it basically a set of bookmarks to the merchants with the clubmom aff id into the links that the clubmom users would access through a drop down menu from the toolbar? Instead of typing in the merchant's url, or going to clubmom to click through to the merchant from you site to earn their points, they could use the pull down menu, click the merchant name to be taken to the merchant with the link being coded with your aff code and their tracking for earning their points?

    Also what would happen if the end user did do a direct type in or arrived at the merchant through some other link (affiliate, SE, etc)?

    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?

  24. #24
    Affiliate Summit Guy Shawn Collins's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLFH (Ms. B):
    Shawn, I'm not sure if I completely understand what you mean by "navigation." Is it basically a set of bookmarks to the merchants with the clubmom aff id into the links that the clubmom users would access through a drop down menu from the toolbar? Instead of typing in the merchant's url, or going to clubmom to click through to the merchant from you site to earn their points, they could use the pull down menu, click the merchant name to be taken to the merchant with the link being coded with your aff code and their tracking for earning their points?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, that's what I was thinking.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLFH (Ms. B):
    Also what would happen if the end user did do a direct type in or arrived at the merchant through some other link (affiliate, SE, etc)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The ClubMom member would not receive a reminder, so they wouldn't get credit. The only way they could get their points would be to actively use the drop down menu to take themselves to the merchant.

    By the way - this is hypotehtical - I haven't done anything so far. I wanted to bounce it off you guys before moving forward.

  25. #25
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    The concept now seems to be being presented in an easier to understand way than at "another board beginning with I." Or maybe the idea just isn't drowned in flames yet!

    It sounds okay from an affiliate standpoint to me, as you describe it now--no reminders or other interference. I don't remember what it was that I didn't like about it the first time you brought it up over there, but this version sounds better.

    From the customer's perspective I do wonder if people will remember to use a drop-down. People are more used to entering their terms into things than selecting from a list. I had Hotbar (before it started to suck) and used their drop-downs all of once or twice... But I suppose a clear "instuctions" page would take care of that.

    Of course, there are many other logistical questions for you and the customer to consider like how much bank has to be accumulated before the customer can cash in, what about reversals, etc. And, of course, what does the customer get for bothering with this? Money? Points good for something free?

    *shudder*

    Oh, don't worry about that (*shudder*), it's just the thought of effectively paying someone to shop...

    On second thought, DO worry about it a bit--and make sure the increase in sales is enough to cover the expense! If only your regular customers download it, you're just going to be putting yourself in the hole.

    Which brings me to...DISTRIBUTION. By what means do you intend to get NEW customers to download it?

    It is a beautiful thing, to do nothing, and then rest afterwards.~Spanish Proverb

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