Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35
  1. #1
    MasterMike HardwareGeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Posts
    3,810
    Amazon.com and Overstock.com lawsuits thrown out
    The NY Court has thrown out the lawsuits by Amazon.com and Overstock.com

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01...on_tax_ruling/

  2. #2
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    12,360
    Judge Eileen needs to be slapped upside the head with her own gavel.

    However, I don't expect Amazon or Overstock to accept the ruling:

    "The dismissal of the Overstock case was based on the ruling Judge Bransten made in the Amazon case. It is fairly certain that both Amazon and Overstock will appeal these rulings. If they decide to, they will take up their cause with the New York State Supreme Court Appellate Division, and then it would go up higher to the New York State Court of Appeals. Because it is a constitutional issue, it could in theory get to the U.S. Supreme Court."
    Peace,

    Rexanne

    Rexanne.com
    Loving Everyone's Child Creates Magic


  3. #3
    Newbie KirstenM's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 14th, 2008
    Location
    Rochester, New York
    Posts
    47
    As a NY state resident (for a few more years only!) this doesn't surprise me a bit . . .

  4. #4
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    5,904
    Actually, it does surprise me. But I have to read the full article before commenting further. Probably tonight.
    Kevin Webster
    twitter: levelanalytics

    Kayak Fishing
    Web Analytics and Affiliate Marketing

  5. #5
    Full Member TerriFalcone's Avatar
    Join Date
    August 5th, 2008
    Posts
    328
    And so it goes. Let the appeals begin. If NYS is able to do this you can be certain that any cash strapped State will do likewise which would probably only leave merchants with affiliates located in the State of Delaware.....
    People are not anxious to pay sales tax AND shipping. I do that with a few specialty stores that have brick and mortar outlets in my State but imagine if it were really widespread.
    <a href="http://www.buzzymultimedia.com/afpr.html"><font color="#FF0000">Buzzy Multimedia Publishing Affiliate Program</font></a>--<a href="http://www.shareasale.com/shareasale.cfm?merchantID=13023"><font color="#FF0000">SAS Sign-Up</font></a>
    7-15% Commision, 180 Cookies, Bonuses
    <a href="http://www.buzzymultimedia.com">Earn Buzzy Bucks Promoting Sci-Fi & Fantasy Audio Books and Wicked Cool T-Shirts</a>

  6. #6
    Full Member Tech Evangelist's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 16th, 2005
    Location
    Mesa, AZ
    Posts
    374
    This is another absurd ruling by a court in the highest taxed state in the country that is greedy for more taxes. Affiliates are not employees, they are independent agents. The presence of employees has always been used as a measure of nexus.

    This will have to go to a Federal Supreme Court, where they are likely to follow the original 1992 Quill Supreme Court ruling regarding nexus.
    There's good, fast and cheap. Pick any two.
    [url=http://www.topranksolutions.com]Phoenix SEO[/url] :: [url=http://www.tech-evangelist.com/category/affiliate-marketing/]Affiliate Marketing Tutorials[/url]

  7. #7
    Newbie KirstenM's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 14th, 2008
    Location
    Rochester, New York
    Posts
    47
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech Evangelist
    This is another absurd ruling by a court in the highest taxed state in the country that is greedy for more taxes.
    Exactly.

    I hope you're right that the federal court will sort this out.

    The problem is that collectively we've rolled over and accepted taxes-and-more-taxes. New York State is the worst. Until people wake up and realize we have to shrink our governments -- by starving them if necessary -- it's only going to get worse, I'm afraid . . . and I was such an optimist just a few short years ago (the early 90s wasn't that long ago, was it? )

  8. #8
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    5,904
    Having now read the article, my fear is that this will bring about a new round of "dump NY affiliates" from those merchants that had taken a wait and see approach. Again, opinions vary on what technically constitutes an affiliate in the sense NY means it, and I believe our proposed solution is still valid, despite this case being turned out.

    Might be a while before this hits the Federal level legally. I'm not rushing out to partner with any merchants that don't collect NY tax already... Could get ugly again.
    Kevin Webster
    twitter: levelanalytics

    Kayak Fishing
    Web Analytics and Affiliate Marketing

  9. #9
    Advocate mellie's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    1,925
    I read through several articles and it seems that part of the reason the judge ruled the way she did is that affiliates do not equal physical presence. Spoke with my accountants office, their lawyers initial review seems to think good news for us as it reinforces the solution.

    Very bad news for other states though.
    Last edited by mellie; January 13th, 2009 at 02:01 PM.
    Melanie
    President - Affiliate Advocacy 2008 ShareaSale Performance Industry Advocate Award, 2009 Affiliate Summit Pinnacle Award - Affiliate Advocate
    Affiliate Advocacy
    NYAffiliateVoice Seery Writing

  10. #10
    ABW Ambassador Greg Rice's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,889
    The neutral statute simply obligates out-of-state sellers to shoulder their fair share of the tax collection burden...
    Don't you love it when our government spends money like a drunken sailor, doesn't care where it goes or what is wasted and it's our duty to pay our "fair share" of taxes. Why don't they ever consider what our fair share is? To them, our fair share is what they impose on us. It sure doesn't seem fair from where I sit.
    Greg Rice Affiliate Program Management
    www.gocmc.com info(AT)gocmc.com | 330-259-1223

    Join us! - MiNeeds.com | DiscountCandleShop/CheeseSupply | Feng Shui Plaza

  11. #11
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    5,904
    Thanks for the clarification Mellie. Glad your people are leaning that way.
    Kevin Webster
    twitter: levelanalytics

    Kayak Fishing
    Web Analytics and Affiliate Marketing

  12. #12
    Newbie KirstenM's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 14th, 2008
    Location
    Rochester, New York
    Posts
    47
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Rice
    It sure doesn't seem fair from where I sit.
    It isn't a bit fair. It's a execrable rip-off that is running our state economy into the ground.

    In 2003, Kevin Hasset published a piece in The American Enterprise magazine. He compared the fiscal health of states that went Dem in the previous election (Bush/Gore) vs. states that voted Republican.

    Dem states: accounted for 70% of the state deficits at the time.
    Republican states: 30%.

    Of the ten states w/ the largest per capita budget deficits, every single one was Dem, and every one had seen INCREASES in tax revenues at the rate of about 5% per year over the previous decade.

    Naturally NYS consistently ranks in the top 3 or 4 in rev per capita.

    We're rolling in tax revenues yet somehow the pols never have enough money . . . it doesn't add up. But until the average New Yorker wakes up and says "enough" it's only going to continue, I'm afraid.

  13. #13
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    5,904
    But until the average New Yorker wakes up and says "enough" it's only going to continue, I'm afraid.
    In my neck of the woods, plummeting kindergarten enrollment should be a good indicator of that..... There's an annual high school football powerhouse 10 minutes from me that is trending towards not being able to field a team in 10 years.

    WNY is seeing serious population attrition, both due to a lackluster job market, and the high taxation rate. Monroe County (where I live) has the highest property tax rate in the nation, I believe...
    Kevin Webster
    twitter: levelanalytics

    Kayak Fishing
    Web Analytics and Affiliate Marketing

  14. #14
    Newbie KirstenM's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 14th, 2008
    Location
    Rochester, New York
    Posts
    47
    I'm in the highest taxed town in Monroe Co. Part of it is for the quality of the school system -- which is the only reason I'm sticking around -- the minute my kid graduates from HS I'm gone.

    I've lived in the state my whole life and I love it, but for some reason Albany keeps ignoring my demands that they act like adults :-)

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador Akiva's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    3,266
    I'm glad I moved out of NY. I'm saving loads on various taxes. But then again, in NJ you have insane property taxes...
    Akiva Bergstrom | akiva@affsolutions.com | 718-871-8286

    Affiliate Marketing Solutions by affSolutions - Creator of the Product Showcase Creator™

    Managed Programs: EssentialApparel.com (Join) | SportsFanfare.com (Join)


    Affiliates: Product Showcase Creator Directory | Merchants: License the Product Showcase Creator™!

  16. #16
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
    I decide when the pigs fly!
    Rhea's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    6,195
    KirstenM, you're new here so perhaps you don't know that we don't discuss politics. Your citation of a magazine published by a neocon think tank as a valid source of information regarding the performance of Republican vs. Democrat state governments, without identifying the source as such, is disingenuous.

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...rise_Institute

    The American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research (AEI) is an extremely influential, pro-business right-wing think tank founded in 1943 by Lewis H. Brown. It promotes the advancement of free enterprise capitalism[1], and succeeds in placing its people in influential governmental positions. It is the center base for many neo-conservatives.
    Find a non-partisan source claiming the same data and I'm all ears.

  17. #17
    Newbie KirstenM's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 14th, 2008
    Location
    Rochester, New York
    Posts
    47
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea
    KirstenM, you're new here so perhaps you don't know that we don't discuss politics. Your citation of a magazine published by a neocon think tank as a valid source of information regarding the performance of Republican vs. Democrat state governments, without identifying the source as such, is disingenuous.
    Mmmm. My bad.

    I didn't know that we don't discuss politics.

    In my defense, I couldn't identify them as "neocon" because I don't understand what that term means and never have. I recognize libertarianism when I see it however. Much cleaner. otoh maybe also a bad word?

    In any case, it does seem to me this has relevance. Tax structures differ from state to state. States like mine, which are and have been governed by one political party for decades, DO have extremely high taxes relative to states which are governed differently -- New York also has higher revenues per capita as well (that isn't in dispute here, right?)

    Businesses have to start pressuring politicians to reign in costs, IMO. If we do that, the Internet tax issue becomes moot. It's all related.

    But I'll shut up. Don't want to step on any toes.

  18. #18
    Full Member Tech Evangelist's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 16th, 2005
    Location
    Mesa, AZ
    Posts
    374
    Kirsten, I fully agree with you, and your points are valid. But the rule here is that people who run this forum do not want it to degenerate into something like DigitalPoint. Discussions about religion and politics take the friendliness out of forums.

    I do not live in New York, but my bigger concern is that if New York wins this one, it will embolden other states (Dem states will be the first to follow) to do the same thing. Most states are running deficits right now and Internet taxes are a ripe target.

    If online stores are forced to charge taxes in every state where they sell products, it will destroy the growth of Internet sales. It is not only a nightmare to sort out and charge taxes in each of the thousands of tax jurisdictions in the USA, it is also a nightmare to administer them. Plus, when you have to charge taxes for a state, county or city, you are legally obligated to allow them to audit your bookkeeping at any time that they desire.

    The current taxing obligations (or lax thereof) with online stores is what keeps them competitive. The people who say it gives online stores an unfair advantage do not consider the cost of shipping products, which frequently exceeds the cost of taxes.
    There's good, fast and cheap. Pick any two.
    [url=http://www.topranksolutions.com]Phoenix SEO[/url] :: [url=http://www.tech-evangelist.com/category/affiliate-marketing/]Affiliate Marketing Tutorials[/url]

  19. #19
    Newbie KirstenM's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 14th, 2008
    Location
    Rochester, New York
    Posts
    47
    Thanks, Tech.

    I'm with you 100 percent. Nor am I a partisan person -- I dislike both parties pretty much equally

    I never meant to violate any forum rules and won't need to be told twice.

  20. #20
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
    I decide when the pigs fly!
    Rhea's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    6,195
    I am a New York resident and I would appreciate it if we could get this thread back on topic. These side discussions aren't productive and those of us who've been financially damaged by this legislation could use some tangible support.

    So people...what have YOU done to help overturn this legislation? What can you do? What will you do in 2009?

  21. #21
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    3,550
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea
    What can you do? What will you do in 2009?you do in 2009?
    Last August I called the Amazon attorney located in NY. He said they needed more time and would talk to me again if needed more help or info.

    I will call again and get permission to list his phone number here, even though phone can be looked up easily like I did, for input from affiliates, which I think they need not just from NY but from everywhere to help case.

    As far as EverythingFurniture.com and sister sites I do not plan on removing any NY affiliates right now.

  22. #22
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    21,609
    Patrick Byrne from Overstock was just on Fox Business Network and said he thought "the legislature passed it because they knew it would be appealed any way so why not just let the appellate courts decide."

    He also said this whole issue is about "affiliate marketing" and for him his decision was "to immediately cut all ties to the 350 affiliates he had in NY" because he's "not going to pay taxes on the $60MM in sales", he ended that statement with "we'll cut those jobs", gotta love that! "jobs" huh Patrick?

    Lastly, he stammered and said if it did pass appeals then it would "wipe out, uhmm uhhh theres no reason for affiliates".
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  23. #23
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    5,904
    Actually, I don't mind him using the word *job* in that context, however misguided it is from where affiliates sit.

    For public awareness, the word job carries a lot more weight than trying explain the actual nature of the relationship.

    As far as "paying taxes on $60mm in sales", he seems to be saying that they weren't planning to collect the tax from NYers, but then paying it out of pocket anyways?

    Still, the Albany Group Solution still would work for Overstock if they think it through.
    Kevin Webster
    twitter: levelanalytics

    Kayak Fishing
    Web Analytics and Affiliate Marketing

  24. #24
    Newbie KirstenM's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 14th, 2008
    Location
    Rochester, New York
    Posts
    47
    Kevin
    who is your senator, are you robach?

  25. #25
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    5,904
    Alesi for me.
    Kevin Webster
    twitter: levelanalytics

    Kayak Fishing
    Web Analytics and Affiliate Marketing

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Tiger Direct lawsuits of past
    By Steveinid in forum Midnight Cafe'
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: October 16th, 2005, 11:10 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: November 21st, 2003, 06:35 AM
  3. Crazy Patent Lawsuits
    By Pete in forum Midnight Cafe'
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: June 30th, 2002, 12:18 AM
  4. outrageous lawsuits
    By SpaceBandit in forum Midnight Cafe'
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: February 22nd, 2002, 06:45 PM
  5. Whoa! PPC Lawsuits
    By tmd5 in forum Midnight Cafe'
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: February 7th, 2002, 11:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •