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  1. #1
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    Can Somebody Explain The NY Tax Etc. In Laymans Terms
    Always was a little confused about this so for sake of argument, let's say every state did what NY was doing and that does what exactly to this industry?

    I know some merchants dropped NY affiliates but most didn't and others adapted. So why wouldn't that happen with other states.

    Rhea posted:
    "In fact for us New York affiliates it might actually improve the situation."

    What did you mean exactly, that if all states did it, it's not like merchants are all going to shut down their affiliate programs, something in that neighborhood?

    And I know when I shop online, some merchants collect sales tax, others don't. Never paid much attention to it. Does that have to do with this situation? And do you think it's kind of inevitable anyway with shopping online that we'll pay taxes, since we pay them in the offline world? If so, it still doesn't change the many benefits of shopping online does it?

  2. #2
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    You know Trust, we have tried and tried to explain it in layman's terms. And tried to explain how it will affect the industry if every state enacts the same legislation. I don't know how to say it better than it was already said but will try after I eat and after I think about how to say it clearer.

    I guess this is another example of how people don't pay attention until it looks like it might hit home.
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  3. #3
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    And yes, I think taxes all online sales is inevitable, so let's just get a federal sales tax in place and do away with all the individual state sales taxes. THATS legislation I would get behind!
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  4. #4
    Super Dawg Member Phil Kaufman aka AffiliateHound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxly
    And yes, I think taxes all online sales is inevitable, so let's just get a federal sales tax in place and do away with all the individual state sales taxes. THATS legislation I would get behind!
    It's not that easy. Yes. Congress can pass a tax on internet sales, but Congress does not have the Constitutional authority to unilaterally cancel state sales taxes. Were Congress to pass a national tax on internet sales, that would be in addition to any state sales taxes, with the following caveat: There would have to be individual negotiations with each individual state, where the Federal government would return to each state a proportion of the internet tax collected, in lieu of the state sales tax that each state would have to agree to not legislate or to suspend.

    A true national sales tax would require a Constitution amendment, and the only way that would happen would be as part of a total overhall of the Federal tax system, and most likely only as a replacement for the Federal income tax.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxly
    You know Trust, we have tried and tried to explain it in layman's terms. And tried to explain how it will affect the industry if every state enacts the same legislation. I don't know how to say it better than it was already said but will try after I eat and after I think about how to say it clearer.

    I guess this is another example of how people don't pay attention until it looks like it might hit home.
    I have read those threads and even people heavily involved were confused, lawyers were involved to try to explain it etc. I'm sure others are still confused as well. Just had the questions I made in my first post.

  6. #6
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    I'm snippy because all of a sudden people want to know things that were discussed at length months ago. But now it's not just NYS, it's an industry issue and NOW it hurts all of you, which the NYS affiliates were warning all along.

    Will get to your questions next. Mellie can do it better tomorrow maybe, but she deserves a break since she already did *all* the talking already. Over and over again.
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  7. #7
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    I'll admit, I'm confused on it as well. I have read through the NY affiliate threads but am still unclear on parts of it. So yes, some of us do pay attention but that doesn't mean we fully understand every detail of it.

    Added: I guess my biggest question would be how it could affect the affiliate industry overall. That's where I'm unclear.
    Last edited by msladybug; January 23rd, 2009 at 10:10 PM. Reason: added comment

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trust
    Always was a little confused about this so for sake of argument, let's say every state did what NY was doing and that does what exactly to this industry?
    It means if they pass exactly the same law, that some affiliates constitute a nexus in that state, requiring the merchant to collect sales tax from purchases shipped to that state. What is so messed up in the NYS code is what activities constitute nexus, and since some merchants don't want to figure it all out, they just dropped the NYS affiliates so they wouldn't need to collect sales tax.
    I know some merchants dropped NY affiliates but most didn't and others adapted. So why wouldn't that happen with other states.
    Because now it could expand to *all* states that have a sales tax or use tax code. That essentially means, start collecting sales tax OR drop all affiliates.
    Rhea posted:
    "In fact for us New York affiliates it might actually improve the situation."

    What did you mean exactly, that if all states did it, it's not like merchants are all going to shut down their affiliate programs, something in that neighborhood?
    Exactly. Merchants will have to decide to just stop their affiliate programs entirely, or collect sales tax and reinstate the NYS affiliates along with the rest.
    And I know when I shop online, some merchants collect sales tax, others don't. Never paid much attention to it. Does that have to do with this situation? And do you think it's kind of inevitable anyway with shopping online that we'll pay taxes, since we pay them in the offline world? If so, it still doesn't change the many benefits of shopping online does it?
    Also exactly, people realize that some companies charge tax for whatever reason and others don't. The shipping calculators on most shopping carts now are "Shipping and Tax" calculators based on Zip Code.

    The problem for *merchants* is that tax zones are *not* all based on zip codes and that means it is hard to figure out what tax is due to who. States need to clean up and redefine their tax codes to be consistent with a table that can be easily implemented or a lot of merchants are not just going to close their affiliate programs, they are just going to go out of business completely.

    I don't think it will be long before merchants will have to deal with collecting sales tax for all states regardless of whether there are affiliates in that state or not. If states are watching and see that NYS is losing income from their tax instead of gaining it, they will write the new laws a bit differently.

    This isn't an affiliate industry problem, it is an online ecommerce industry.

    And god forbid they decide to start taxing ebooks~!!! Then a whole nuther part of the internet will get pissed and maybe decide to do something!
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  9. #9
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    "Because now it could expand to *all* states that have a sales tax or use tax code. That essentially means, start collecting sales tax OR drop all affiliates."

    Well if those are the 2 options, then they'll probably just start collecting sales tax. And life will go on. I don't see many merchants dropping all affiliates when they can just do that and adapt.

  10. #10
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    Msladybug

    The way it would effect the affiliate industry would be huge. 99% of all mom and pop affiliates would stop making sales and stop affiliate marketing. merchants would close there affiliate programs.

    Sorry to say but unless you were in NY and saw what we went through you would not understand until it actually happened to you.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyfalcon
    Msladybug

    The way it would effect the affiliate industry would be huge. 99% of all mom and pop affiliates would stop making sales and stop affiliate marketing. merchants would close there affiliate programs.

    Sorry to say but unless you were in NY and saw what we went through you would not understand until it actually happened to you.
    Sorry, I don't buy that. I saw a very small percentage of merchants drop NY affiliates. How about give me some numbers on that, ballmark. I know there are about 6000 programs alone in the major networks. Out of that, how many dropped NY affiliates? Haven't seen any numbers on that.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trust
    "Because now it could expand to *all* states that have a sales tax or use tax code. That essentially means, start collecting sales tax OR drop all affiliates."

    Well if those are the 2 options, then they'll probably just start collecting sales tax. And life will go on. I don't see many merchants dropping all affiliates when they can just do that and adapt.
    I actually foresee many merchants closing shop because they can't handle the accounting for 7000 tax districts. That's why there needs to be a federal online sales tax that overrides state sales tax, there is a bill for that floating around somewhere.
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  13. #13
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    Thanks loxly and nyfalcon for your posts. It certainly has my full attention now. I know, I should have been paying closer attention but it is so easy to just get lost sometimes in all these threads.
    Last edited by msladybug; January 23rd, 2009 at 10:28 PM. Reason: typo

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trust
    Sorry, I don't buy that. I saw a very small percentage of merchants drop NY affiliates. How about give me some numbers on that, ballmark. How many merchants dropped NY affiliates? I know there are about 6000 programs alone in the major networks. Out of that, how many dropped NY affiliates? Haven't seen any numbers on that.
    Change your address at just one network to NYS for a day and see what happens. It isn't pretty. And "numbers" aren't important if they are the programs that are *your* top programs.
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  15. #15
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    Trust

    I see them dropping affiliates first and then maybe reinstate at a later date, would you sign back up for an affiliate program that dumped you. It would probably be hard for people to find an affiliate site to fill that niche and just fold up and go out of affiliate marketing.
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  16. #16
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    But in your last 2 posts, you left out numbers. You said it would be just like NY, so that's why I'm asking. About 6000 programs, if it was 60 merchants that dropped NY affiliates, that would be 1%. It would suck if it's a merchant you do great with, I understand that but 1% is really not that much. I'm sure you must have some idea on how many dropped NY affiliates. How many?

  17. #17
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    Ok Trust lets run the numbers, lets say there are 6000 programs. lets say I have a coffee site. I cant run 5900 of those programs as they are not in my niche. That leaves me with 100 merchants but not really because after not using parasite filled merchants that leaves me with 25. Out of the 25 I have already tried 10 merchants in the past and they didn't convert. That leaves me with 15 and guess what they all dropped ny affiliates. Whats my options?
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyfalcon
    Ok Trust lets run the numbers, lets say there are 6000 programs. lets say I have a coffee site. I cant run 5900 of those programs as they are not in my niche. That leaves me with 100 merchants but not really because after not using parasite filled merchants that leaves me with 25. Out of the 25 I have already tried 10 merchants in the past and they didn't convert. That leaves me with 15 and guess what they all dropped ny affiliates. Whats my options?
    How many merchants dropped NY affiliates? All you're doing is avoiding the question, I know somebody must know, have kept up on this. You not answering the question, or trying to divert it and I think it's probably some extremely low number, probably 1% or 2%, something low. And you don't want to say because then you'll know, you'll have people think it's not that big of deal.

    How many? Is there a list maintained somewhere? I will go count them myself. You either know or you don't know. If you know, just post it. If you don't, why don't you know?

  19. #19
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    If you think there was just a small number of merchants that dropped affiliates you are mistaken. Just because they are not listed here doesn't mean they didn't drop them.

    Imagine changing out all your links to a new merchant and then the next day that merchant drops you. It would be a major PITA oh and the next day the replacement to that merchant drops you. All during Q4 I might add.

    Sorry to say but in a messed up way I wish every affiliate had to go through this, you guys in other states got away easy.
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  20. #20
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    Trust, no one knows that number. And they are still dropping NYS affiliates. Even Mellie doesn't know the number, because if you weren't in a program that dropped NYS affiliates or if you weren't told that a merchant dropped NYS affiliates how do you know if a merchant did or not? Try joining programs and you get the generic decline, not "we don't work with NYS affiliates".

    If *you* want a number you aren't going to get one. Because most of the merchants don't publicize they aren't accepting NYS affiliates.
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  21. #21
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    I don't know the number, The number is irrelevant to me and every ny affiliate for that matter. Lets say it is 1% but out of that 1% the merchants covered a lot of niches like overstock or CSN. It killed a lot of affiliates that were in a niche market.
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  22. #22
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    Here is the list of merchants that ARE NYS affiliate friendly.

    I don't see close to 6000 merchants listed there, do you?
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  23. #23
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    I've read those threads and I know it was hard. That wasn't my question tho.

    "The way it would effect the affiliate industry would be huge. 99% of all mom and pop affiliates would stop making sales and stop affiliate marketing. merchants would close there affiliate programs."

    People read that and they might be thinking all merchants are going to be dropping them but if it was just 1% or 2%, that's not a lot.

    So you just don't want to say how many?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trust
    So you just don't want to say how many?
    What part of "we don't know and there is no way to know" do you not understand?
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxly
    Here is the list of merchants that ARE NYS affiliate friendly.

    I don't see close to 6000 merchants listed there, do you?
    Loxly, please don't play people for stupid. That's just a list of merchants who asked to be put on that list or merchants you know for sure.

    Can I just get a straight answer on this?

    Do you know how many merchants dropped NY affiliates?

    If yes - how many?

    If no, just say no.

    You just keep giving me the runaround on this. I've asked a few times already, simple question and you're just not answering or bringing up things that have nothing to do with the question.

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