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  1. #1
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    PMA Thread split off - Not NY Tax issues as John Jupp learns
    Primarily because of the international aspect that has now resulted from the New York affiliate tax and the fact that it shall be extended from March in other States, Affiliate Program Advice is considering joining the PMA as we liaise quite closely with the UK's IAB and I have a conference call with them to put in place the mechanics for a joint IAB/PMA discussion on this soon.

    The industry is more than just affiliates. The industry is every sector which uses the internet to trade and (according to the States) "employs" affiliates to drive converting traffic to suppliers/retailers.

    Yes there are significant issues that need addressing. Call me old fashioned if you wish, but discussion between aggrieved parties is surely better than a total or partial non participation.

    One thing I am certain of. The affiliate and retail industry which makes use of affiliates needs to raise funds quickly to influence committees on States legislatures and if affiliates don't want to be a part of it and don't work with retailers to raise a fighting fund then the retailers must do this themselves.

    I am absolutely shocked that you guys just won't bury the hatchet (not in each other) and work together despite your differences and genuine grievances.

    This is an industry folks. Not a kindergarden. We all share an interest and whatever our differences we are all screwed if individual States extend the affiliate tax. So may I suggest you swallow that hard and painful lump and work together?
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

  2. #2
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    You do what you want John, once you learn what has and is happening here, then you can get sanctimonious, until then ... I suggest you do a hell of a lot more research.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  3. #3
    Super Dawg Member Phil Kaufman aka AffiliateHound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Jupp
    Primarily because of the international aspect that has now resulted from the New York affiliate tax and the fact that it shall be extended from March in other States, Affiliate Program Advice is considering joining the PMA as we liaise quite closely with the UK's IAB and I have a conference call with them to put in place the mechanics for a joint IAB/PMA discussion on this soon.

    The industry is more than just affiliates. The industry is every sector which uses the internet to trade and (according to the States) "employs" affiliates to drive converting traffic to suppliers/retailers.

    Yes there are significant issues that need addressing. Call me old fashioned if you wish, but discussion between aggrieved parties is surely better than a total or partial non participation.

    One thing I am certain of. The affiliate and retail industry which makes use of affiliates needs to raise funds quickly to influence committees on States legislatures and if affiliates don't want to be a part of it and don't work with retailers to raise a fighting fund then the retailers must do this themselves.

    I am absolutely shocked that you guys just won't bury the hatchet (not in each other) and work together despite your differences and genuine grievances.

    This is an industry folks. Not a kindergarden. We all share an interest and whatever our differences we are all screwed if individual States extend the affiliate tax. So may I suggest you swallow that hard and painful lump and work together?
    Thank you, Neville Chamberlain, or should I say Marshal Pétain.
    Since June 10, 2012 a vegan aarf but still writing the Hound Dawg Sports Blog
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  4. #4
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    Haiko

    The point I am trying to allude to is that yes, you guys have serious differences, but time is passing and politicians could not give two fingers what you're talking about. They need to raise taxes and quickly.

    Now if you want to see a repeat of the affiliate tax outside New York then carry on by all means and waste even more time.

    However business waits for no man (or woman) and neither does taxation in a recession with federal funding cut at State level.

    So please feel free to debate the issues as you see fit but please please please do not lose sight of this one time opportunity to prevent more affiliate tax programs being put in place. Inaction is inexcusable and I do not care whether an affiliate is a person working from their bedroom or if they have a suite of offices, we are ALL in the same situation.

    Affiliates are going to get hit hard and you need representation to take action in the committee rooms of the States legislatures and Congress. Do nothing but quibble over who does what, who is involved, how much it costs and why are you doing this and before very long, there will be even more restrictions within affiliate marketing.

    As I said in my previous post, this is an international issue. That is why I shall no longer be silent on this issue.
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I will not lose sight of the histories, the players their agendas then and now, and in no damn way will I ever lose sight of the mistreatment and blatant / repeated disrespect of the affiliates then, now and how they will continue screwing of affiliates.

    So as I said John you do what you want but you have miles to go before you have even a hint of a clue with what is really happening in and to the US market and by whom. Yes the tax issue is huge, but please don't be so damn naive to think that that band of .... will not .... eh you'll see - that is if you actually bother to look --- which you obviously didn't before your declarations.

    Lastly, your assumption that any of this is personal is more insulting than your lack of true diligence in any of the matters.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  6. #6
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Stop trying to stampede the horses, John.

    There's no need to panic. There's no evidence to show that the PMA is poised to act on the state taxation or federal taxation issues. They've been quite silent on this matter Stateside but you would like us to believe that they've divulged their plans to the IAB? Further, there's no proof that taxation at either the state or federal level would be an end-of-the-world scenario for affiliate marketing or ecommerce. Business is likely to carry on much as usual. In fact for us New York affiliates it might actually improve the situation.

    And speaking of inexcusable inaction, where were you and the PMA when NY state affiliates were struggling to find a solution to the "Amazon tax law?" Your absence during that process is inconsistent with your borderline hysteria now.

    I smell smoke.

  7. #7
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    Trust

    I respect you and the thoughtful posts you make.

    I am sure you and many other readers have seen the devastating overreaction by retailers towards New York based affiliates in response to the State affiliate tax.

    Now imagine please the following two scenarios:

    First, individual States decide to duplicate the experiment in New York and either ban affiliates from that State or reduce commissions for affiliates in that State.

    Second, consider the Federal Can Spam Act and why it was introduced. 40 States had separate legislation covering the same issues and federal Government had to equalise or normalise or standardise the legislation.

    Now at present from an International perspective there exists certain treaty obligations which prevent non US based companies without fixed assets from paying US taxation. If an affiliate tax is brought in to a number of States it follows that the Federal Government shall have to standardise, equalise, normalise the separate State's legislation into a Federal Statute of Act. This then would require International treaty alterations and would then have a global impact.

    OK I am looking further ahead that an individual State copying New York but I am sure you can appreciate the potential repercussions.

    In business one has as I am sure you will agree, to look at every possible outcome. I plan for the worst possible scenario. It's what keeps me ahead of the curve. Furthermore there are others who share this potential doomsday scenario.

    The outcome is one of two possible factors. Either affiliates in particular States are prohibited from promoting specific retailers (as is happening already) or that commissions are reduced across the board to pay for this triple taxation.

    Now seriously, if you are happy to work for less but at least keep working then fair play to you. However if like myself you believe that further taxation is unjust then you'll wish to do something about it.

    From where I sit having followed the discussions about the PMA, Affiliate Voice and general thoughts by affiliates and others over the last year, you guys have talked a lot on very important issues but you have singularly failed to address a serious threat to affiliate marketing and unless Affiliate Voice is willing to spend serious money playing the political game then you are just bystanders in the scheme of things and the politicians will enact new taxation proposals and retailers shall have to respond, by either banning you or cutting the amount of commission you receive.

    So your choice people. Work together despite how unpalatable it may be, or just sit idly by for a few more months and watch the political developments.
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

  8. #8
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    Rhea

    My profound apologies if it appears I am trying to stampede anything.

    It's only that I am acutely aware of the political timetable and wish to see some action rather than inaction.
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

  9. #9
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    Taxation doesn't cost the company anything but time. So why would they reduce commissions to affiliates that are driving sales that *pay* the salaries of the companies?

    John, not sure where you are getting your info but it smells bad to me.
    Deborah Carney
    TeamLoxly.com BookGoodies.com ABCsPlus.com

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Jupp
    Trust

    I respect you and the thoughtful posts you make.

    I am sure you and many other readers have seen the devastating overreaction by retailers towards New York based affiliates in response to the State affiliate tax.

    Now imagine please the following two scenarios:

    First, individual States decide to duplicate the experiment in New York and either ban affiliates from that State or reduce commissions for affiliates in that State.

    Second, consider the Federal Can Spam Act and why it was introduced. 40 States had separate legislation covering the same issues and federal Government had to equalise or normalise or standardise the legislation.

    Now at present from an International perspective there exists certain treaty obligations which prevent non US based companies without fixed assets from paying US taxation. If an affiliate tax is brought in to a number of States it follows that the Federal Government shall have to standardise, equalise, normalise the separate State's legislation into a Federal Statute of Act. This then would require International treaty alterations and would then have a global impact.

    OK I am looking further ahead that an individual State copying New York but I am sure you can appreciate the potential repercussions.

    In business one has as I am sure you will agree, to look at every possible outcome. I plan for the worst possible scenario. It's what keeps me ahead of the curve. Furthermore there are others who share this potential doomsday scenario.

    The outcome is one of two possible factors. Either affiliates in particular States are prohibited from promoting specific retailers (as is happening already) or that commissions are reduced across the board to pay for this triple taxation.

    Now seriously, if you are happy to work for less but at least keep working then fair play to you. However if like myself you believe that further taxation is unjust then you'll wish to do something about it.

    From where I sit having followed the discussions about the PMA, Affiliate Voice and general thoughts by affiliates and others over the last year, you guys have talked a lot on very important issues but you have singularly failed to address a serious threat to affiliate marketing and unless Affiliate Voice is willing to spend serious money playing the political game then you are just bystanders in the scheme of things and the politicians will enact new taxation proposals and retailers shall have to respond, by either banning you or cutting the amount of commission you receive.

    So your choice people. Work together despite how unpalatable it may be, or just sit idly by for a few more months and watch the political developments.
    Deleted my post in this thread and just started a new thread, didn't want to take this one too far off topic. http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=115434

  11. #11
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxly
    Taxation doesn't cost the company anything but time. So why would they reduce commissions to affiliates that are driving sales that *pay* the salaries of the companies?

    John, not sure where you are getting your info but it smells bad to me.
    Hi Loxly

    Please forgive the way this may come across as written words are so prone to different interpretations.

    If I am a retailer and I face having to pay extra taxation for sales to a specific State as a direct result of the sale having been referred by an Affiliate based in that State, then either I would say no to any affiliates from that State or I would reduce the available level of commission to that Affiliate as I have to ensure that my margins are not affected by additional penalising taxation measures owing to trading with that State. It is I suggest a common commercial response to an extra specific identifiable source of taxation. If Affiliate A costs me X but Affiliate B who lives in a penalising State costs me Y then Affiliate B will either be cut from the program or receive less commission to make up for the extra taxes.
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

  12. #12
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    John, please share this "political timetable" with the rest of us. You make it sound as if something dire is scheduled to happen on a specific date. I'm sure that's not your intention. Perhaps you could elaborate on what precisely you mean by a timetable.

    Also, could you please explain the relationship between IAB and PMA? I'm not clear if there really is a relationship or if you are expressing your desire to form a relationship.

    If you could tone down the emotionality of your posts and stick to known facts, representing them as such, versus what is your personal speculation, that would be very helpful.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Jupp
    Hi Loxly

    Please forgive the way this may come across as written words are so prone to different interpretations.

    If I am a retailer and I face having to pay extra taxation for sales to a specific State as a direct result of the sale having been referred by an Affiliate based in that State, then either I would say no to any affiliates from that State or I would reduce the available level of commission to that Affiliate as I have to ensure that my margins are not affected by additional penalising taxation measures owing to trading with that State. It is I suggest a common commercial response to an extra specific identifiable source of taxation. If Affiliate A costs me X but Affiliate B who lives in a penalising State costs me Y then Affiliate Y will either be cut from the program or receive less commission to make up for the extra taxes.
    Tax is collected from the consumer and then paid to the state. It is not out of the merchant's pocket.

    If this is different than how it is done in the UK then you need to do some research to find out how it works "over here".
    Deborah Carney
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  14. #14
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I need not repeat myself, learn before you issue declarations John, you don't know Jack about the US market's landscape, people or histories or issues. PERIOD.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  15. #15
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    I am more than happy to learn Haiko, that's why I am happy to contribute on this forum. As for knowing Jack that's a little below the belt but I'll let it pass by. Life is a learning curve and yes I do need to learn more. So does everyone.

    All I am trying to encourage is that you guys maintain dialogue between the different parties to this discussion over the PMA. As for where the taxation is paid, I am sorry but I would suggest you miss the point. If there is extra taxation paid by the consumer it still affects margins as the consumer either pays more or the merchant absorbs the cost. If the latter then the affiliate gets cut or the commission gets reduced to ensure that the all important margin is not affected.
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

  16. #16
    Super Dawg Member Phil Kaufman aka AffiliateHound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Jupp
    First, individual States decide to duplicate the experiment in New York and either ban affiliates from that State or reduce commissions for affiliates in that State.
    Neither of which can be done by any state.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Jupp
    Federal Statute of Act.
    Huh? that phrase does not exist in American legislative parlance.

    If what you are referring to is a Federal Sales Tax, that will never happen, unless there is a total overhaul of the Federal Tax system, where a sales tax replaces the income tax, and that would require a Constitutional Amendment. Congress has debated a tax on internet sales but they cannot pass legislation that would end any state's individual right to impose a sales tax on sales that have a constitutional nexus to that state.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Jupp
    Second, consider the Federal Can Spam Act and why it was introdcued. 40 States had separate legislation covering the same issues and federal Government had to equalise or normalise or standardise the legislation.
    Did not have to but chose to, and that is far differenert than trying to "equalise or normalise" a tax issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Jupp
    The outcome is one of two possible factors. Either affiliates in particular States are prohibited from promoting specific retailers (as is happening already) or that commissions are reduced across the board to pay for this triple taxation.
    That is not state action - it is the action of individual merchants. If there were similar tax rules in every state, merchants would have to re-access their positions, and either continue to offer reasonable commissions to all affiliates, or end their affiliate programs.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Jupp
    Now seriously, if you are happy to work for less but at least keep working then fair play to you. However if like myself you believe that further taxation is unjust then you'll wish to do something about it.

    From where I sit having followed the discussions about the PMA, Affiliate Voice and general thoughts by affiliates and others over the last year, you guys have talked a lot on very important issues but you have singularly failed to address a serious threat to affiliate marketing and unless Affiliate Voice is willing to spend serious money playing the political game then you are just bystanders in the scheme of things and the politicians will enact new taxation proposals and retailers shall have to respond, by either banning you or cutting the amount of commission you receive.

    So your choice people. Work together despite how unpalatable it may be, or just sit idly by for a few more months and watch the political developments.
    There is no indication that PMA will ever be an advocate for affiliates in this regard.
    Since June 10, 2012 a vegan aarf but still writing the Hound Dawg Sports Blog
    "If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?" -John Wooden;
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  17. #17
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    John, it is illegal for a merchant "to absorb the tax". A merchant *has* to collect the tax, they can choose to give the customer a refund or discount, but the tax must be collected from the customer as a separate line item from their purchases.
    Deborah Carney
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  18. #18
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    All 50 states will have a law passed before the PMA is even functioning as an organization. Its a mute point in my book.
    Vinny O'Hare - OPM - Contact Info email: vinny at teamloxly.com ~ 702-582-6742 Twitter

  19. #19
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    Hi Rhea

    The timetable I understand is happening now.

    Federal funding to States was cut under Bush. The Federal Government encouraged States to look at alternative funding. States are under pressure to mitigate any potential detrimental impact on voters.

    Committee formations shall be concluded for all State legislatures by the end of January.

    States shall then debate funding requirements.

    It is "suggested" that one of the measures shall be an affiliate tax. This was directly raised at Affiliate Summit West.
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

  20. #20
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxly
    John, it is illegal for a merchant "to absorb the tax". A merchant *has* to collect the tax, they can choose to give the customer a refund or discount, but the tax must be collected from the customer as a separate line item from their purchases.
    Loxly, an English quotation that doesn't come across right in American English. The merchant collects the tax yes. The customer receives a discount to maintain the price available to customers in other States yes.

    It's who in the end pays for this extra tax in whole or in part. The merchant? No. Margins would be affected. The logical commercial response is to claw back some of the monies from commissions.
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

  21. #21
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    You aren't "getting it" I'm done. No merchant is required to lower prices to make up for a customer paying sales tax. If a customer lives in a state that requires the tax, the customer is responsible for paying it. Not the merchant.

    Reducing a commission for affiliates in a specific state is nonsense.
    Deborah Carney
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyfalcon
    All 50 states will have a law passed before the PMA is even functioning as an organization. Its a mute point in my book.
    That what I was wondering as well, John, from reading your blog. This is all supposed to happen within the next few months right? So the PMA will have zero affect on any of this. Like nyfalcon said, it's not even a functioning organization yet, still trying to raise money, have to get somebody in Washington etc.

    From your blog:

    "Yes. Straight away. In fact, once the committees are all sworn in and start looking at their budgets we could conceivably see the first budgetary proposals by March."

    2 months away, how can PMA have any affect on that.

  23. #23
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    PLUS the PMA hanging their hat on this issue is ridiculous because *no one associated with PMA (I know it wasn't formed yet, but still....) was involved with helping the NYS affiliates fight or find a solution.

    Now that it threatens the entire industry (which was when the tax case was tossed out of court *during* affiliate summit) people are going to claim they are in business to fight it!

    I call Bull$shit.... and if you know me at all you know I *never* raise my voice or swear online......
    Deborah Carney
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  24. #24
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    AffiliateHound

    I am dyslexic and speed typing. I miss the occasional word or misspell. So please fill in the gaps in my post.

    First, individual States decide to duplicate the experiment in New York and either ban affiliates from that State or reduce commissions for affiliates in that State. Add the word merchant please between and - either.

    Federal Statute of Act. substitute of for or. The word Statute is an English rather than an American English terminology.

    Did not have to but chose to, and that is far different than trying to "equalise or normalise" a tax issue.

    My sentiments entirely. Politicians like to be seen to be doing things.

    That is not state action - it is the action of individual merchants. If there were similar tax rules in every state, merchants would have to re-access their positions, and either continue to offer reasonable commissions to all affiliates, or end their affiliate programs. I agree however it is cause and effect.

    There is no indication that PMA will ever be an advocate for affiliates in this regard.

    I absolutely agree with you and that's why because from an international perspective if enough States get on the bandwaggon and introduce a tax there may be an international repercussion and that's why I have posted in the first place on this thread, simply because there is a choice...Affiliate Voice or PMA and what represents more than affiliates and who has the cash potentially to do something if there is a need for a co-operative action to forestall federal activity in normalising taxation?

    That's precisely why I spoke up. I want everyone to work together. If it's Affiliate Voice or PMA or whatever the new organisation will be called next week I honestly do not mind, just that regardless of differences between individuals or companies, that you don't just sit watching from the sidelines but that you all contribute to limit the potential damage that could be discussed with regards affiliate taxes.

    If my comments are counter productive then ok, I wish you all well and I'll say no more, but it's YOUR industry and from where I am sat you are collectively doing a whole lot of nothing to mitigate or limit the potential impact on Affiliate Marketing.
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

  25. #25
    Outsourced Program Manager John Jupp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trust
    That what I was wondering as well, John, from reading your blog. This is all supposed to happen within the next few months right? So the PMA will have zero affect on any of this. Like nyfalcon said, it's not even a functioning organization yet, still trying to raise money, have to get somebody in Washington etc.

    From your blog:

    "Yes. Straight away. In fact, once the committees are all sworn in and start looking at their budgets we could conceivably see the first budgetary proposals by March."

    2 months away, how can PMA have any affect on that.
    Trust I have to very sadly agree with you absolutely entirely.

    Please remember I am based in the UK and not the USA so what happens at State level generally isn't of concern outside your Country to people elsewhere.

    Yes the PMA is nowhere near ready. It's an absolute disgrace from where I am that in the UK we have more affiliate representation than in the USA with industry and commerce. In that respect we are far ahead of you guys.

    What I have been trying painfully to put across is that you collectively have important issues of trust that have not been resolved and whilst you continue to iron out your differences, the world of politics has moved on.

    There is simply no more time for you to continue the valid arguments you have. Tax policy has to be decided by March. It is considered by some that affiliate tax shall be discussed. This may be implemented. My point is what are you doing about it?

    You've all born witness to mellie's imploring to do something about the New York affiliate tax. She is almost a lone voice. It's not been an issue outside the USA but if sufficient States enact legislation then it shall be.

    You have not even got an organisation that speaks for the "industry" at State or Federal level. I am suggesting that is precisely what you need.

    How you achieve this is YOUR doing. What I am trying to place in everyone's minds is that time is NOT on your side.
    Flambi Media Limited - USA/UK/EU Affiliate Management Expertise

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