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  1. #1
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
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    Ok, been trying to keep up with all the seperate posts about cookies. lol, I have a few questions.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Poon said:
    @Chris, All cookies are not created equal!
    I am unwilling to run additional tests for you if your policy is going to be a ceast and desit on all of the violators as you've done in the past with Ms B.s work and as you indicate in this thread. I will not spend my time doing work for you when you take what I perceive as ineffective actions on offenders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am not understanding this - don't we want the merchants to get rid of people that are doing bad things?

    ok - next question - my friend says that when you go to look at any site that has affiliate links, the merchants cookie is set by the page loading the HTML - just because they have the affilate link on the page (not by doing anything bad). I always thought the cookie was set by the person clicking on the merchants link (my affiliate link to that merchant). So who is right?

    And if my friend is right, then what is the differance between that and what everyone is talking about "automatically" loading a cookie? (what Poon is testing for)

    lol, last question for now - ok, a while back there was a thread where a person had "click this link to bookmark whatever merchant." And in that link was their affiliate code. I kinda thought that was clever but now I am wondering if this is allowed? (not doing it yet but I want to know)

    Sorry to sound stupid - but I figure if I don't compleatly understand, a lot of others don't either. I was reading in the thread about what the COC and TOS is for the diff networks and it was confusing. We need a CLEAR set of rules that even I can understand - lol.



    Ebudae

    If you understand, things are just as they are...
    if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  2. #2
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We need a CLEAR set of rules <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    True, but I think these rules are not very clear on purpose. How could they push parasites otherwise? This way they cover their asses. Stinks, more cover needed

  3. #3
    Affiliate Miester my2cents's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Irma:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We need a CLEAR set of rules <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    True, but I think these rules are not very clear on purpose. How could they push parasites otherwise? This way they cover their asses. Stinks, more cover needed <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree... the more confusion the easier it it to pull all sort of dirty tricks on us affiliates and our customers too.

    Ebudae as for your question:

    "ok - next question - my friend says that when you go to look at any site that has affiliate links, the merchants cookie is set by the page loading the HTML - just because they have the affilate link on the page (not by doing anything bad). I always thought the cookie was set by the person clicking on the merchants link (my affiliate link to that merchant)."

    adding a cookie to someones computer when they visit a page is a "dirty trick" are are correct.. a cookie should only be placed if you affiliate link is clicked.


    Keep asking those questions...

    JOe

    And, that's the bottom line because it's my2cents!

  4. #4
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ebudae:
    ok - next question - my friend says that when you go to look at any site that has affiliate links, the merchants cookie is set by the page loading the HTML - just because they have the affilate link on the page (not by doing anything bad). I always thought the cookie was set by the person clicking on the merchants link (my affiliate link to that merchant). So who is right?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If I understand correctly, for most affiliates, when your html loads, an impression cookie may be set. The actual tracking cookie should be set when your customer clicks on your link to the merchant.

  5. #5
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Yes, what wyvern said...

    Depending on the network and how much of the provided code you use, normal affiliate links might leave an IMPRESSION cookie just from being viewed. The TRACKING cookie should only be set when a visitor clicks through an affiliate link.

    What affiliates are in an uproar about is when certain affiliates manipulate the code to make it seem like the visitor clicked through the links and set (OR OVERWRITE!) an affiliate TRACKING cookie WITHOUT the user having clicked through on a link.

    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com

  6. #6
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    Yup and each network has different cookies and completely different ways of determining what is or isn't a tracking cookie as well as tieing the information in it back to the merchant, link clicked , affiliate id that will get credit, etc.

    I've been looking at cookies for quite some time to figure them out. Go ask a network for their cookie details and to explain to you all the details of their cookie.

    Ask them - How do I distinguish an image tracking cookie from a non image tracking cookie.

    Ask them - How do I identify the merchant and the affiliate that will get credit for a sale from whats inside a cookie and see what they tell you.

    I'm willing to bet they don't tell you crapola!

    You have no idea how long I've been looking and and watching as cookies change states between merchants clicked on, date times, links, and even with different affiliates to glean my knowledge.

    It's not in plain english for a reason - they don't want you knowing if your cookie has been tampered with or not IMO. Of course they can prove me wrong by producing a cookie facts sheet made generally available to affiliates that cuts thru the maze but, I wont hold my breath for that to occur.

    ** Have you asked for change? **

  7. #7
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Ebudae ..the major network furnished linking codes all have the impression cookie to record a valid impression (optional and can be stripped without effecting tracking). The link code also has a URL for setting the merchant tracking cookie through the network server.

    The cookie stuffers use both the SERPs and their sites pages to auto plant cookies via:

    1. off page focus HTML code to a invisible iframe
    2. They program a 1x1 pixel iframe(s) popup to automatically open unknowingly or viewable by the shopper to high conversion merchants in that category. No way that shopper can even see that merchant. This is a back up cookie as often the page does have a clickable link to that merchant and others.
    3. Some program delayed 1x1 pixel iframe popunders to multiple merchants as a going away present TO THEMSELVES.

    Net result is a big FU merchant... I just planted cookies with no click just like some bigtime BHO. Object is to give no advertising value to the merchant yet earn a commission by begging merchants for longer return day cookies. Then beg the same AM for coupons to spam the serps with trademark & brand terms via PPCSE. Datafeeds are easily programmed within the templates to also stuff the 20,000 landing pages with the same 1x1 pixel invisible iframe cookie setting routines.

    The scheme is to set as many hidden cookies while apearing to add value to the lame AM running the programs. AM's as a group should REVOLT on this practice and deamnd immediate networks banns on these techniques.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  8. #8
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by happypoon:
    Yup and each network has different cookies and completely different ways of determining what is or isn't a tracking cookie as well as tieing the information in it back to the merchant, link clicked , affiliate id that will get credit, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Even within a network, different merchants sometimes do cookies differently.

    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com

  9. #9
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Linda - 5starAffiliatePrograms's Avatar
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    So are pop-unders an ethical way to try to boost sales or should they be banned???

    Don't get me wrong I don't like pops. But the question is should all pops be banned and against the rules for all affiliates???

    Linda Buquet 714.754.1280 :: Catalyst eMarketing Promotion & PR (Partner Relations)
    <font color="#0000FF">5 Star Affiliate Programs</font> :: High Paying, Parasite-Free, Partner-Centered Merchants!

  10. #10
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    There's a difference between pop-unders, which are an effective marketing tool (statistically they produce results), inviting people to sign up to a newsletter, for instance, and pop-unders which auto-set a cookie.

    The first are regarded by many as an annoyance.

    The second is just plain wrong.

  11. #11
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Linda pop ups or unders displaying a merchant banner or text links coded with affiliates tracking link does not set anything more than a impression cookie. The key legitimizing features are: Viewable by the shopper & requires a physical click to set the merchants cookie.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  12. #12
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Linda - 5starAffiliatePrograms's Avatar
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    OK so just play along with me here for a minute. I am not defending pops at all. I am just trying to understand something. Forget about cookies for a minute and tell me if this is a logical thought process.

    Let's say I'm either a newbie affiliate who has read about the success rate of pops or an experienced marketer who has used pops successfully in other types of advertising.

    I am looking for ways to increase sales on my luggage page. I think what if someone is shopping for luggage but they don't see exactly what they want on my affiliate page. Maybe I focused on backpacks and that isn't exactly what they want. I have a popunder that goes to Irvs homepage, because there's a chance when they leave my site they will go to the Irvs site and brose around.

    When the customer sees the whole range of products at Irvs, the nice menu that goes to all the different product categories, all the specials on the homepage and the link to the discounts page, there is a chance they may end up buying something. The goal of affiliate marketing is always to pre-sell and then get them to the merchant site as quickly as possible and let the power and credibility of the merchant site do the selling and close the sale. I just did that.

    Linda Buquet 714.754.1280 :: Catalyst eMarketing Promotion & PR (Partner Relations)
    <font color="#0000FF">5 Star Affiliate Programs</font> :: High Paying, Parasite-Free, Partner-Centered Merchants!

  13. #13
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    You are 100% spot on in your logic Linda. Never showcase a merchant who can't take the responsibility to close a shopper who selected an interest in that category. Shoppers buy because of need -trust in merchant and product- price vs perceived value.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  14. #14
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Catalyst:
    The goal of affiliate marketing is always to pre-sell and then get them to the merchant site as quickly as possible and let the power and credibility of the merchant site do the selling and close the sale. I just did that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No you didn't!

    You stole someone else's cookie, nothing less. Please explain to me where and how you pre-sold them. If they landed on backpacks on your site when they where looking for luggage:

    1. you messed up your optimization (since they didn't land on the luggage page)
    2. If your navigation doesn't allow them to navigate to your luggage page(s) then you didn't code your site right.

    ... and because you messed up twice your telling me that popping up a merchant site is pre-selling? much less deservant of stealing someone else's cookie? Get Real that IS nothing but horsehockey!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
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  15. #15
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Darn ..I thought she was schooling her affiliates sales force on targeting and putting the onus on the merchant to close the sale by a well laid out web site. I missed this part...

    "I have a popunder that goes to Irvs homepage, because there's a chance when they leave my site they will go to the Irvs site and brose around."

    No way is that hidden iframed cookie setting move, without a click, anything more then what a BHO does by a redirect. Many using this trick also sets a cookie for ebags and other Irv's competitors flock shooting with cookie bullets.

    Next step is for the sleezy affiliates, in any verticle like luggage, to use PPCSE or site links to a cookie stuffing blind redirect page setting cookies to all luggage merchants. What's wrong with just putting a Irv's home page banner on the bottom or top of the backpack page as your only insurance. To allow this other activity would force me and all other value-add affiliates to cave in and make multiple merchant cookie stuffing on each pageview of EcomCity my primary goal.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  16. #16
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Linda - 5starAffiliatePrograms's Avatar
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    Haiko PLEEEEEEASE. Cool off! I never said I thought this! I said "PLAY ALONG WITH ME".

    The whole point of the excercise was to see if it was POSSIBLE that affiliates who are either newbies or come from the traditional ad world, may be doing this for other reasons without the SPECIFIC INTENTION of setting cookies, just with the intention of trying to get sales. I'm not saying it's right, I was merely asking the IF the logic sounded somewhat PLAUSIBLE!

    You said "1. you messed up your optimization (since they didn't land on the luggage page)
    2. If your navigation doesn't allow them to navigate to your luggage page(s) then you didn't code your site right."

    Which equates to the fact that this affiliate I MADE UP does not know what he is doing or does not do a very good job at affiliate marketing on his site. THIS IS TRUE - many affiliates are not very good at what they do. That's why people talk about the 90/10 rule of affiliate marketing. The 10% that are good and make good money, most of them are on this forum. The other 90% that AREN'T on this forum or that don't know how to market very well are the ones that these rules need to be clearly spelled out for.

    MY WHOLE POINT IN ASKING YOU TO PLAY ALONG WITH MY PREVIOUS POST WAS THIS!

    If affiliates are even confused about how auto-cookies get set and disagree on what is right or wrong... then we need to stop talking about auto-cookie setting (too grey) and DEFINE the SPECIFIC ACTIONS that are not allowed and all agree on the definitions. If auto-cookies are set by people using pops regardless if that was the reason they are using pops - then we need to clearly state NO POPUPS OR POPUNDERS.

    If this is not one of the rules of the networks or the merchants then we can't say bad, you are auto-cookie setting. We need to say no pops, no iframes no "whatever the other things are that set cookies."

    My little excercise above was designed to help us all get clear on the SPECIFICS that need to be adressed and understood by all - since the auto-cookie setting issue seems to be so grey or misunderstood or subject to interpretation.

    So instead of having 20 threads about this with everyone confused and disagreeing let's work proactively on making a CLEAR and EASY to understand list of activities that should not be allowed.

    1) No iframes (this is the only thing Ive seen that is clear cut and even CJ has this in their rules.

    2) No sofware apps - that's clear

    3) No popups or unders period? This is not a rule anywhere that I've seen but if it's one of the ways to autoset cookies then should it be a rule - no pops period? Or just specifically no pops that go straight to the merchant's site.

    4) What other SPECIFIC actions can set auto-cookies that should be against the rules??? What are they? Let's define the specific action.

    Let's decide and agree on the list of actions that should NOT be allowed and eliminate all the grey areas and then the merchants and networks will know specifically what to enforce. Setting a cookie is not stealing since there is no maney to be made by anyone until a buy is actually made. So we need to get away from the term cookie-setting and define specific actions. I hope I've said this enough times to make my intentions clear! I am trying to help come up with a logical solution that can be implemented.

    Stealing commissions is NOT allowed in my book but how can we enforce something that is not clear to all and that we cannot enforce for cause?

    Linda Buquet 714.754.1280 :: Catalyst eMarketing Promotion & PR (Partner Relations)
    <font color="#0000FF">5 Star Affiliate Programs</font> :: High Paying, Parasite-Free, Partner-Centered Merchants!

  17. #17
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    I don't do any pop ups or unders, but opening the merchant's site like that might be something they want.

    It sounds more effective than popping up a banner.

    I don't see the connection between that and iframes and all the other stuff you guys are ranting about.

    How do you even know the user already had an Irvs Luggage cookie from another affiliate? maybe the visitor never heard of Irvs and now they have been introduced.

    What i am saying is that i do not think it is all black and white like some people are saying.

    A big part of the problem is that the affiliate doing a pop-under of the site does not have any way of knowing if they are accidentally overwriting someone else's cookie. I think the pressure should be on the merchant or network to supply the proper tools so people can do clean affiliate marketing.

    And why didn't that first affiliate close the sale? Should they get the commission when they did such a poor job of pre-selling? Maybe they did not show them a coupon code or they linked to the wrong page on the merchant site, or some other mistake.

    There are a lot of issues here and calling everyone a sleaze bag is not helping matters.

  18. #18
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Linda I know it was a hypothetical and I'm not mad nor agitated.

    I don't really understand the bantering behind what should or shouldn't be allowed as to me it's quite clear:

    If the end user didn't specifically click (setting the cookie) on an affiliate (CPA or CPL) link to a merchant a click cookie shouldn't be set, period.

    Why is there need for any clarification? Everything else is not the result of the end user's actions. End of grey area.

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


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    </font></p>

  19. #19
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    I can see someone new to this looking at

    "No iframes (this is the only thing Ive seen that is clear cut and even CJ has this in their rules."

    and getting confused since most newbies use Amazon and when you get links the code they tell you to copy and paste has iframes.

    So it can vary between merchants.

    I work in lounge pants

  20. #20
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    Linda, is there some kind of convoluted thinking going on "back there" with the merchants?

    I've said this before. Go to your favorite affiliate merchant's site and prepare to make a purchase. Right before checking out, go coupon shopping using a seach engine. Watch sites offering coupons come up in the serps ... sites offering coupons even for merchants that don't offer coupons. Check out some of those sites and see what schemes they are using to get their affiliate cookie set on your computer so they get credit for that sale that is about to take place, even though they had nothing to do with initiating the sale. Setting their cookie by forcing an automatic redirect (often via a popup) to the merchant is one sure way of getting their cookie set.

    I have also seen some of the fraud sites say "click here for your ABCMerchant coupon" when there are no coupons to be had. It's yet another scheme to get their cookie set without doing any marketing.

    Go coupon shopping for some popular merchants that have affiliate programs. Then maybe you'll start to see what we're talking about.

    Sure, there are other opportunities to set cookies fraudulantly, but the coupon frauds are especially lucrative because you can't find a more targeted customer to suck into the scheme than one that's standing at the checkout counter with the merchandise in their cart and credit card in hand and saying, "oh, let me look in my purse/wallet for a coupon before you ring that up".

  21. #21
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    Is it right for a site to trick a customer into thinking there is a coupon and steal someone else's referaal? No.

    But what if there is a coupon and the first site did not help the customer save money? Should the second site earn the referral? Maybe.

    Should affiliates do iframes and hidden pop-ups to set a cookie? No.

    Should they be allowed to introduce a customer to a new merchant by popping up their site? And should the merchant be allowed to decide if they want this type of exposure? I think so.

    Should an affiliate be allowed to offer a download that saves customers money thru rebates or contribute to charity without specifically clicking an affiliate link? I am afraid so.

    Should that download be allowed to steal another affiliates commission? In my opinion, no (although the customer probably wants it to).

  22. #22
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    cookies - what is ok, what are the "rules"

    In the end it's the merchant who makes the rules and based on that affiliates can decide if they want to work with the merchant.

    In the network - merchant - affiliate relationship the merchant is at the top.

    Not networks. Why? Because affiliate marketing existed before them and can exist without them. So there would still be affiliates - merchants. Some merchants have been conditioned to think vetworks are more powerful than them but merchants have a lot more pull than you think. That's part of the COC, networks saying its up the merchants who they want to work with.

    Not affiliates. Why? Because merchants had sites up even before there were affiliates and networks. So they can exist without us. Big brand merchants could drop affiliate programs and not feel a thing. Smaller, midsize merchants and merchants that are reliant on SE need affiliates more.

    So when you ask what are the rules, the merchants should be doing the answering they're the ones in charge. CJ says iframes are bad, amazon says they are good. Whos right, whos wrong? Don't ask me, i'm not a merchant. So what are the rules? Merchants tell us and then if your affiliate don't follow them, give them the boot.

  23. #23
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    Sorry I could not resist! Its Saturday!


    SandraR

  24. #24
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    Lets look at it from a consumer point of view.

    I click an a serl go to a site and say "oh my god what a mess" - I wouldn't trust anything these folks tried to sell me, I go to the next site and look and see the same thing or don't see what I'm looking for. Lets say I bump thru 4 sites before I finally click on a link and go to the merchants site. Lets further assume that each of the previous four sites performed popunders to set cookies. At this point there are 5 new browser sessions that have been opened for the consumer.

    The consumer makes a purchase and the correct affiliate gets commish regardless of the four prev pops. The consumer closes the browser only to find another irvs instance popped on them. They close and there is another one and another and another and then another. The consumer does not know who did the popunders.... It could have been from the merchant for all they know - will that concumer come back to your site for furture purchases? I don't know about most but I sure wouldn't.

    2) The other cases I can envision don't get any better, not from a consumer standpoint, not for a partnering affiliates stand point.

    I personaly fail to see where popunders or popups to set a cookie lead to capturing sales and making a positive consumer impressions where they will return and purchase more goods - despite some who will say they are very effective.

    It's no wonder why consumers are putting more crap running constantly on there computer to stop this abuse which unfortunately also opens the door for more cookies to be washed and blocked. The Merchant may still reap the benefits but affiliates by a large margin IMO will not. It seems a practice that only cuts our own throats.

    If this is allowed, what happens when it is implemented on datafeed based sites? I know how to retrict a popunder to a single instance however, how many others would end up displaying a popunder for the merchant for every page that is visitied - LOL. I'm searious - this could present serious problems for merchants and casue deep consumer resentment, further backlash from the search engines and who knows what else.

    This sure is confusing - LOL.

    ** Have you asked for change? **

  25. #25
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    I think it is going to be up to the merchants too. And the affiliates just need to pick partners based on the individual policies.

    Originally I was against the whole idea about coupon sites 'stealing' commissions. But a network can't disallow coupons, and who is to say who deserves the commission anyways?

    How can the first affiliate prove that the customer was in the checkout process before they started looking for coupons.

    For example, say Mike's site refers a customer to ebags. They find a Sasmonite carry-on item they really like. But it is just too darn expensive. They go looking for a coupon sinceMike hates coupons. They find Connie's site with a 15% off coupon link, and then complete the purchase. Or maybe they went to a site with ebags' coupon link in a hidden iframe. Either way, they get 15% off and complete the purchase.

    Maybe Mike would think it was sleazy affiliate practices that 'stole' the commission. But the other guys might think it is sleazy for him to lay claim to the commission and try to get them kicked out of the program.

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