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  1. #1
    Half a Bubble Off Plumb RemodelingGuy's Avatar
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    Is It TOO Late for New Sites to Create REAL Organic Traffic & Cash?
    I have several sites, but my main site, that I started when the internet was young over 12 years ago ...pays the bills.

    Started a toxic mold site 6 years ago that does very mediocre business.

    Tough to get it listed as well as my main site within it's niche.... Probably only 600 hits a day.

    Can a newbie make a living and be totally dependant on the search engines for traffic???

    Or...... is PPC traffic from Goog and the lesser SE's the only way to go?

    I haven't used PPC ( Adwords etc. ) in over two years and may be paying the price now.

    If the ROI outweighs the cost, then it is worth it I guess.

    I rant ....

    Is it too late for new sites to expect to make it in this industry without paying for hits?

    EDIT: I ask this only for opinions... Not to be a doom sayer.. I would like to start some new sites with some new ideas and an all around better looking site structure, but am too intimidated by the bazillions of new sites adding weight to the internet! -
    Last edited by RemodelingGuy; June 8th, 2009 at 11:12 PM.

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  2. #2
    The "other" left wing davidh's Avatar
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    It gets tougher and tougher but the organic traffic is still there for the taking. Getting it to convert is getting tougher and tougher too though lol.

    Jump right in and try something new. If it fails, try something else
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  3. #3
    More Cheesier Than Ever Cheesehead's Avatar
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    Any site that becomes the "best" site in its niche will get the top position and traffic (eventually). Yeah, time is helpful, but also you added a lot of content in the 12 years you had your first site. Mostly I am talking about content-based sites.

    It is harder to be the best now because of all the competition.
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  4. #4
    Half a Bubble Off Plumb RemodelingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidh
    Jump right in and try something new. If it fails, try something else

    Don't have the time and patience to FAIL anymore ...

    Jimmy McDonald - Your Local Hard Working RemodelingGuy ( & SprinklerGuy - & GarageGuy )
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  5. #5
    The "other" left wing davidh's Avatar
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    Neither do I but ya never win if you don't keep trying til you do
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  6. #6
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    I would suggest you sign up for EBAY and also their affiliate program. They have merchants galore that would like some of your traffic to see their auction and buy it now pages ...

    Also, you might start spending some time putting up ads on Craigslist. Over 1 million people per day visit there ... you could get some traffic for just the time it takes for you to post ads ...

    Times are really tough these days ... some of the best internet marketers I know are dying on the vine.

    Products that save money and necessities are the only things really selling in volume.
    You might look into selling 'water saving shower heads,' 'compact florescent lights,'

    If a product has somewhat of a 'green' bent, that also helps. Another potential area which WAS huge in the savings and loan crisis of the 80's ... is doing work for banks that own a zillion foreclosure properties - stuff like upgrading bathrooms, appliances, yards, etc. Cleaning up the houses, yards and such.

    Basically, you contact a bank ... make a deal to do one house per day at say $500. You bring in your crew, clean the place up. Then provide the bank with a list of 'stuff' they need to do to bring the property up to saleable condition. Contractor guys were clearing $200 on the $500 job and more on any other jobs.

    It's real work though, not online stuff. But you could do it, then write it up and sell the info to contractors for $20 a pop. There are a zillion home in foreclosure ... and banks are up to their eyeballs in being landlords , which is totally out of their skill sets.

  7. #7
    Full Member iolaire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemodelingGuy
    Is it too late for new sites to expect to make it in this industry without paying for hits?
    I think if you spend a lot of time updating content with a site that is technically formatted similar to a bog - i.e. ping the ping sites every time you update a page - you will continue to build hits.

    Static sites in the old hard coded html type style have a hard time since everyone tells Google etc when they update a single page.

    Yesterday a study made the rounds that say 90% of blogs are not updated now - that is playing in your favor if you are regularly updating you site and telling everyone that you have updated it.

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador phillyburbs's Avatar
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    There are a lot of moving parts. It's not just competition, it's the way people are using the Web and the way companies are promoting their items.

    But, in a nutshell, no, it's not too late.

  9. #9
    Half a Bubble Off Plumb RemodelingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by net4biz
    I would suggest you sign up for EBAY and also their affiliate program. They have merchants galore that would like some of your traffic to see their auction and buy it now pages ...

    Also, you might start spending some time putting up ads on Craigslist. Over 1 million people per day visit there ... you could get some traffic for just the time it takes for you to post ads ...

    Times are really tough these days ... some of the best internet marketers I know are dying on the vine.

    Products that save money and necessities are the only things really selling in volume.
    You might look into selling 'water saving shower heads,' 'compact florescent lights,'

    If a product has somewhat of a 'green' bent, that also helps. Another potential area which WAS huge in the savings and loan crisis of the 80's ... is doing work for banks that own a zillion foreclosure properties - stuff like upgrading bathrooms, appliances, yards, etc. Cleaning up the houses, yards and such.

    Basically, you contact a bank ... make a deal to do one house per day at say $500. You bring in your crew, clean the place up. Then provide the bank with a list of 'stuff' they need to do to bring the property up to saleable condition. Contractor guys were clearing $200 on the $500 job and more on any other jobs.

    It's real work though, not online stuff. But you could do it, then write it up and sell the info to contractors for $20 a pop. There are a zillion home in foreclosure ... and banks are up to their eyeballs in being landlords , which is totally out of their skill sets.
    Great Reply n4b - I never knew EBAY had an affiliate program .. will look into it.

    Craigslist works well for my foreclosure business .. It's like blogging tho . Have to stay on top of it.

    The green edge has yet to excite me. I started a green section about a month ago and continue to add content to it. We'll see.

    I match about 40 contractors a day ( home & mold pros ) at about half that, but it pays many of the bills around here. I think that the bank end would be good to look into. I have a good relationship with all of my banks. I'll start there.

    THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT.

    Jimmy McDonald - Your Local Hard Working RemodelingGuy ( & SprinklerGuy - & GarageGuy )
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  10. #10
    Full Member OICUAM2's Avatar
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    For a new site, getting traffic is hard. No need to sugar coat it.

    Buying traffic through pay per click search engines is getting harder. Quality standards and rules change each day. Competition is fierce leading to an increased cost per click needed to buy traffic. There are ways to get cheap traffic, but it is a game that must be played each day to stay on top of it. Long-tail keywords are no longer as competition free as they used to be.

    Organic traffic is also very difficult to cultivate. Getting links on other sites is not easy. Posting a link on a classified site usually doesn't last very long. Posting links on forums and blogs doesn't increase your site authority ranking and often doesn't lead to a lot of traffic. Article marketing is no longer the traffic generator it once was. Social marketing is hit or miss. Offline marketing is rarely profitable since most people need to see your ad a few times before they will remember the domain name and be motivated enough to carry it in their mind until they get to a computer.

    Organic search traffic can be built by adding lots of traffic, but not all search traffic is the same. Each niche is different. I built ten blogs/forums/social networking sites at once. I started to get a trickle of organic search traffic into each one by building lots of content on the sites. On one site, lots of traffic starting coming in, but would back out right away. On another site that had a near identical design (but a different content/niche) a small amount of organic search traffic came in and went to multiple pages and clicked ads and affiliate links. Building just one blog or forum in hopes of lots of organic traffic could lead to two years of content creation only to realize that you are in a niche that doesn't convert well.

    Even though organic traffic is difficult to get, I still work for the long term. I don't play the daily pay per click game because any profits are short term profits (unless you are building a list of customers instead of just trying to get people to click through to an affiliate link). My goal isn't to play the game each day and hope I can be profitable. My goal is to build quality sites that will run on their own in a stable way for many years/decades.

    Each day, I learn something new. Each day, my sites get better. Each day, my sites have more content. Each day, I get a new link from another site or get mentioned in an article about my niche(s).

    I'm in this for the long-term.
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  11. #11
    Half a Bubble Off Plumb RemodelingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OICUAM2
    For a new site, getting traffic is hard. No need to sugar coat it.

    Buying traffic through pay per click search engines is getting harder. Quality standards and rules change each day. Competition is fierce leading to an increased cost per click needed to buy traffic. There are ways to get cheap traffic, but it is a game that must be played each day to stay on top of it. Long-tail keywords are no longer as competition free as they used to be.

    Organic traffic is also very difficult to cultivate. Getting links on other sites is not easy. Posting a link on a classified site usually doesn't last very long. Posting links on forums and blogs doesn't increase your site authority ranking and often doesn't lead to a lot of traffic. Article marketing is no longer the traffic generator it once was. Social marketing is hit or miss. Offline marketing is rarely profitable since most people need to see your ad a few times before they will remember the domain name and be motivated enough to carry it in their mind until they get to a computer.

    Organic search traffic can be built by adding lots of traffic, but not all search traffic is the same. Each niche is different. I built ten blogs/forums/social networking sites at once. I started to get a trickle of organic search traffic into each one by building lots of content on the sites. On one site, lots of traffic starting coming in, but would back out right away. On another site that had a near identical design (but a different content/niche) a small amount of organic search traffic came in and went to multiple pages and clicked ads and affiliate links. Building just one blog or forum in hopes of lots of organic traffic could lead to two years of content creation only to realize that you are in a niche that doesn't convert well.

    Even though organic traffic is difficult to get, I still work for the long term. I don't play the daily pay per click game because any profits are short term profits (unless you are building a list of customers instead of just trying to get people to click through to an affiliate link). My goal isn't to play the game each day and hope I can be profitable. My goal is to build quality sites that will run on their own in a stable way for many years/decades.

    Each day, I learn something new. Each day, my sites get better. Each day, my sites have more content. Each day, I get a new link from another site or get mentioned in an article about my niche(s).

    I'm in this for the long-term.

    Heck of a response.

    If someone new to our industry takes this to heart, they just might learn something that will put some coin in their pocket!


    Jimmy McDonald - Your Local Hard Working RemodelingGuy ( & SprinklerGuy - & GarageGuy )
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  12. #12
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    My goal is to build quality sites that will run on their own in a stable way for many years/decades
    That sums up my entire strategy in one concise sentence! Very well said

    It took 2 years before I started to see a profit, but the sites continue to reach a higher plateau at every cycle.

    Personally I don't think it's too late for real organic traffic & cash, it's a case of finding the right niche at the right time - and that takes some skill, some luck & good old fashioned hard work.

  13. #13
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemodelingGuy
    Can a newbie make a living and be totally dependant on the search engines for traffic???

    Or...... is PPC traffic from Goog and the lesser SE's the only way to go?
    Neither. Or both. Or some combination.

    By just considering organic search and PPC, you're missing the best traffic source...

    Word of mouth. Build something that is truly useful to people within a niche, and they will talk about it. They'll tell their friends. They'll post about it in forums and on their blogs. They'll link to it from their sites. They'll suggest it when people ask about something related. Newspapers, magazines, radio programs, and TV programs will mention it.

    Of course you should design your pages to be SEO-friendly as well, but the natural links that come from word of mouth will be the biggest thing to help your SEO.

    Of course you should do PPC if each incremental visitor increases your earnings enough to justify bidding on keywords.

    But the focus should always be on the consumer.
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  14. #14
    What's the word? Rhia7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelColey
    But the focus should always be on the consumer.
    Michael, do you think a website with a focus on the consumer needs a lot of "high tech bells & whistles?"
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  15. #15
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    Most likely all the low hanging fruit has been taken but still doesn't mean there are not niches to be exploited. Heck, a girlfriend and I started a review site. We do not even have our first review up but we are still getting good organic traffic. Not a lot at the moment but 5-6 a day. Once our first review is up I am hoping to get some conversion. If not still fun to try, of course this is not how I make my living... yet?

  16. #16
    Believe knight01's Avatar
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    I agree with Coley and was about to write the same thing. I don't think a website without some natural buzz can hit the big time the way it could 5 or 10 years ago. SEO/PPC can only get you so far, you've got to get people talking about it offline to really make a splash.
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  17. #17
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    I think each site has got to be maintained. by this I mean keep promoting it Updae your blogs relating to it everday. Keep rotating products on it. keep posting, use free ad sites. ther is still alot you can do.

    It's not to late!

  18. #18
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    There is NO FREE LUNCH doing online marketing. You are always limited in the scale of traffic you get from SEO. And PPC also has a scale problem. You are spending money
    and if you do not make more than you spend, it's NOT good, no matter how many people
    you get to visit your websites or offer.

    No matter what you do it usually takes time, effort or money. And sometimes all 3.

    The object whether you have a ton of traffic or a ounce is to make more money than it costs to run the whole operation on a per visitor basis.

    For example: If your fixed costs to have your website are $30 per month, that is $1/day.
    So you need to find out how much each person who visits your site is costing you. If you get 100 people per day, that is ONE CENT per visitor. So for you to make a profit, you need to average more than ONE CENT per visitor in revenue.

    You can do that in one of two ways ... make more sales or increase the number of visitors so your costs drop.

    Personally, I buy 'garbage traffic' every month to get scale and lower my cost per visitor
    to as close to ZERO as possible. So for page X, I might have some PPC running at $.30 cents per click that ends up costing me $100 for the month. Then I would buy 100,000 PTC traffic for $100 - which means I have close to 3,500 visitors per day to that page.

    But the cost per visitor drops to around less than 2/10 of a cent per visitor. Now out of
    3,500 people per day, if I make 3 sales a day on average I make 90 sales for the month.
    I only have to make $3 commission per sale to make a profit.

    The value of doing this trick, is that out of 100k in traffic, some people will bookmark your page and come back. Some people will buy something. The worst case is you Alexa rating will go up. What matters is how much revenue do you make per visitor and is it more per visitor than it costs you.

  19. #19
    ABW Ambassador phillyburbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia7
    Michael, do you think a website with a focus on the consumer needs a lot of "high tech bells & whistles?"
    My 2 cents: No. Craigslist is a focused on the needs of the user and is totally devoid of bells and whistles.

  20. #20
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia7
    Michael, do you think a website with a focus on the consumer needs a lot of "high tech bells & whistles?"
    Needs? No. Just look at Craigslist.com. As basic as could be. Immensely popular. Of course it can help and some niches need the bells and whistles, but I think the utility of a site is far more important than the technology of the site.

    ADDED: LOL! Karl and I are thinking the exact same thing. I hadn't read his response before I typed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by knight01
    I don't think a website without some natural buzz can hit the big time the way it could 5 or 10 years ago.
    I wouldn't go quite that far. It is still possible to build a site that works entirely on natural search and it's possible to be successful with pure PPC as well. I just think it's easier, better, and more sustainable if the focus is on providing value for the consumer.
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  21. #21
    ABW Ambassador ladidah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by net4biz
    Personally, I buy 'garbage traffic' every month to get scale and lower my cost per visitor
    to as close to ZERO as possible. So for page X, I might have some PPC running at $.30 cents per click that ends up costing me $100 for the month. Then I would buy 100,000 PTC traffic for $100 - which means I have close to 3,500 visitors per day to that page.
    So, let me get this right. You are buying 'garbage' traffic AND doing PPC to this page X. Do you track which traffic is the one that actually makes the sale? If so, how, which software? Also, why not do all 'garbage' traffic and drop the PPC if that is working?

  22. #22
    ABW Ambassador phillyburbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelColey
    ADDED: LOL! Karl and I are thinking the exact same thing. I hadn't read his response before I typed this.
    As the wise editors of Mad magazine once said - small minds swim in the same gutter.


  23. #23
    Newbie gccg101's Avatar
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    man there is plenty of organic traffic out there - maybe you need to get back to the basics on your other sites and get some traffic flowing

  24. #24
    Half a Bubble Off Plumb RemodelingGuy's Avatar
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    I RESPECTFULLY disagree with you.....

    The search engines have parameters and those in the know have pounded on them.

    URLs in Google are gold. Those great urls are all gone.

    Solid Meta's don't work anymore.

    Title & descrip tags are still important, but if not backed up by quality content and the url to back them, they end up on page 2 - 2000 and that is just as good as being invisible.

    My idea of traffic and many of those here are very different.

    I am talking 1000's of extra hits a day, and many are happy with a hundred, two hundred?... five hundred? ... hits a day.

    Organic search is a different animal than it was 12 years ago.

    Different than it was a year ago.

    I rant......

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  25. #25
    ABW Ambassador ladidah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemodelingGuy
    I RESPECTFULLY disagree with you.....

    The search engines have parameters and those in the know have pounded on them.

    URLs in Google are gold. Those great urls are all gone.

    Solid Meta's don't work anymore.
    Totally disagree with this one. What about these url?
    >> twitter? >> facebook? Their names does not contain any keywords but they are the most popular sites today.
    You can still make up great urls with keywords in them, you just have to be creative.


    Quote Originally Posted by RemodelingGuy
    My idea of traffic and many of those here are very different.

    I am talking 1000's of extra hits a day, and many are happy with a hundred, two hundred?... five hundred? ... hits a day.
    Nope, not happy with the hundreds. Right now I am aiming at 4000 for my new site that is 1 year old. I'm half way there now. This is all SEO and only one page of ppc with adspend of $4 a day to test. Very competitive niche with 47 million searches on G. I am sure others have had success with their new sites too.

    Quote Originally Posted by RemodelingGuy
    Organic search is a different animal than it was 12 years ago.

    Different than it was a year ago.

    I rant......
    I agree that search is different than 12 years ago but you need to find the niches, and add value to the customers. What do customers want? Do they want to have a professional come in to take care of their mold or do the new wave of "do-it-yourselfers" want to do it themselves? If so, show them videos, tools, show them the green way to attack molds, etc. They want pictures, they want free stuff, and they want instant gratification. As someone mentioned to you before, green is the way to go. You have a good niche I believe already, you just have to expand it. Get excited about it

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