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  1. #1
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    I came across a website with many diff merchants from diff networks and this PID=1346693. Is it yours PM me.

    I cannot make name of site public yet because I am not sure of the rules on ABW about exposing sites if they are an ABW member. I have already contacted somebody here about this particular situation. I will post site if its ok.

    I have a question about the way this site is designed and the way it has no products, banners on it just re-directs to merchants only.
    I ask because a customer entered two key words in google and my site and this person's site came up. My site has products banners, etc about the particular merchant, but on this persons site there was nothing just a straight re-direct to merchant. I lost a potential cust. Nothing new here to the aff veterans, I know.

    But, why should I promote a merchant that is not vigilant enough to visit all their aff sites and let these tactics take place. I spend perhaps one whole day working on this one merchant for example putting links, banners, datafeed, etc and this person spends maybe 5 minutes just putting links and a re-direct.

    I think my new agenda as of today will be with all merchants, and networks, If I have you on my site and I happen to come across a site like this one.

    1 - I will send info to merchant about site, that I think is doing something wrong.

    2 - If merchant does not cancel, suspend this type of site and removed within 7 days, then I will cancel replace this particular merchant from my site.

    3 - I do care about being honest and I do care about my partnerships with merchants and networks, etc.

    4 - If in the end I end up with 0 partners than so be it. I refuse to let merchants, networks any body make me work like a fool for the next 10 years while I'll be making 10k per month working 60 hours per week and sites like this work 10 hours and make 100k per month and merchants and networks not doing anything and laughing all the way to the bank.

    If you know who it is or if you are the owner of this PID please PM me.
    PID=1346693. Change it and i will go away.

    If get no response from anyone by at least Monday. I will post name of site and merchants on this site I will notify of my dis-approval.

    Thanks

    Jorge

  2. #2
    ABW Veteran jc101's Avatar
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    hey Jorge. I'm with you here. I believe it is really ruining this industry. I'v seen it and I'v seen it to the point where I ended up letting the merchants know. If you want Jorge feel free to send me a private message and I'll give you my feedback privately.

    <a href="http://www.parasiteware.com/"target="_blank">Merchants help stop Parasiteware<a>

    <font size="2">All Parasiteware, site copiers, spammers, hijackers are scumbags, and should be
    sued for their actions.. <font size="2">be careful you could be the next innocent victim.

  3. #3
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    BTW, nowhere on this site is there a contact phone, address, email nothing only a feedback form, and on "Who Is" its private by proxy.

    I hate that!

  4. #4
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    Good for you!

    Not sure if it would do any good, but talk to an attorney while your at it, these people need to be stopped.

    Haiko and moderators are on here all the time, so there really is not much need for addresses and phone numbers.



    SandraR<font color="red"></font>
    <font face="Arial" size="1">ArtGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">AutoGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">BookGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">CleanGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">GameGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">GiftGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">PetGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1">
    </font><font size="1" face="Arial">| SSAN &amp; AIM: SSanAssistance | MSN &amp; Yahoo: SSan_Assistance |</font></p>

  5. #5
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    SandraR,

    Thanks.

    "Haiko and moderators are on here all the time, so there really is not much need for addresses and phone numbers"

    I meant "on this site is there a contact phone, address, email nothin"

    I meant site in question has no contact info not ABW related.

    Hope that's what you meant, I meant.

  6. #6
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    jrami,

    Oops, I thought you were complaining about address and # for ABW.

    As for the creeps CJ should be able to help you, keep in mind that number was created not that long ago. CJ may really be the best way to go, but then again they have to deal with confidentiality stuff... POSTING that nasty PID is a good way to go



    SandraR<font color="red"></font>
    <font face="Arial" size="1">ArtGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">AutoGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">BookGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">CleanGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">GameGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">GiftGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1"> - </font><font face="Arial" size="1">PetGoodies</font><font face="Arial" size="1">
    </font><font size="1" face="Arial">| SSAN &amp; AIM: SSanAssistance | MSN &amp; Yahoo: SSan_Assistance |</font></p>

  7. #7
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Good luck.

    Don't take this next part as a flame, but I can hardly ever let a logical fallacy pass.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'll be making 10k per month working 60 hours per week and sites like this work 10 hours and make 100k per month <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Without evidence that people actually buy *right after* getting that redirect, it's baseless to say they're making "100k/month." Personally I think a site like that would vacuum in a lot of dud clicks, and probably gets less actual buyers than a site with some pre-sell spin.

    Granted, it sucks when they overwrite your cookie, but customers may not be ready to settle on a particular merchant when they have just been zapped over by a redirect, and a lot of merchant sites still aren't good enough to get the greatest conversion ratio without some kind of help. So I believe that redirecters probably don't do nearly as stellarly as 100k/month, at least not with one site.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    That having been said,

    As for the merchants, first tell the ones here who have revised their TOS to specifically prohibit such tactics. After all, might as well hit the ones who you know will agree with you! Tell them in their forums or in PMs in case they miss this thread. It's easy to miss a thread on here! I'm amazed at some of the threads I *don't* notice and only find out about when someone refers to them...

    ~Cheapskate merchants need not apply

  8. #8
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    OUT the bugger's domain and the sleuths here can probably find they operate moire then one auto cookie setting doorway site.

    here's one thats the tip of the iceberg of Russian mob sites.

    http://www.fedscope.com/

    Notice the lovely pre-sell and shopper targeting they offer their merchnats. What you won't see is their all over the SERPs and PPCSE keywords with blind redirects from the thousands of hidden pages. Seems like they just target the lame shoe merchant AM's like Shoes.com or Zappos. Reality is they multiple domains targeting all the network merchants.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    "Payment is one option that isn't negotiable. Merchants require it for purchases ...SO DO WE."

  9. #9
    ABW Ambassador Grumpy's Avatar
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    This type of thing is going on all the time. Like all of you here, I spend hours and hours building pages, posting banners and trying to make my landing pages as attractive as possible for visitors. Then you get these people who just have a redirect to the merchants they represent with no work involved. Trouble is that the merchants themselves don't seem to bother checking up. One particular merchant I have specifically said when they approved me for the program that they do not allow redirects to their site yet, when I clicked on a few ads on Google Adwords to check, about 50% of their other affiliates are using redirects. I agree that it's not acceptable but, if the merchants don't practice what they preach, I'm afraid we're just wasting our time even talking about this. What really makes me mad is that these type of sites actually get high rankings for their keywords, when they basically have buggerall content on their pages.

  10. #10
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    I'm not sure from your description exactly what the website is doing.

    When you go to the site does it automatically forward you to the merchant's site, or does it have a bunch of banners that you have to click to go to the merchant's site?

  11. #11
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    I see that Russian site still has its PR. I thought Google would have banned it quick like they did with that site full of posters subdomains from awhile back...

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Then you get these people who just have a redirect to the merchants they represent with no work involved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I find it less depressing to ignore how much work the competition does or doesn't do. Competition is competition. You have to stomp it in order to get more customers from the SERPs no matter whether it worked hard or not.

    ~Cheapskate merchants need not apply

    [This message was edited by Leader on March 07, 2004 at 12:32 PM.]

  12. #12
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    What I'm trying to point out is there are only a few AM's who actually are qualified to run and manage their merchnats programs. The others pass out SE spam food like it was candy at holloween, knowing their merchant bosses don't even know what Google is....or where to find it in the yellow pages

    Mike & Charlie ...

    "Payment is one option that isn't negotiable. Merchants require it for purchases ...SO DO WE."

  13. #13
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Sheesh, Mike, I've had *AMs* who didn't know what Google is!

    Feeds from those AMs, when they actually know what a "feed" is (rare), are usually so junky that they're likely to crash scripts trying to run them.

    ~Cheapskate merchants need not apply

  14. #14
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    I guess I am not understanding the complaint for sure. If you are saying that a page on someone's site that just has banners on it is positioned better than you for a specific keyword, I don't think there is anything illegal about that. If you are saying that going to that page automatically resets the cookies for different merchants without a click, well that is actionable.

    But I don't think you can do much about a page full of banners.

    - - - - - - - - -
    I will FOCUS on my goal, and I shall NOT be denied.

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador Nature Boy's Avatar
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    If you believe that the site in question is doing something agains CJ's Terms and Conditions, report them to CJ's AAQ.

    I followed Todd's advice in this thread and AAQ took care of the problem the NEXT day. I was quite impressed.

    In fact, they included this piece of advice, "If you find any other publishers performing this type of forced click behavior please let us know."

    Simple, but effective.

    -----------------------------
    Scott

    Have a nice day unless you have other plans

  16. #16
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Jrami's complaint is:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>on this persons site there was nothing just a straight re-direct to merchant~Jrami <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I figured that meant that the person clicks the Google link and then BAM, over they go to the merchant without having to click another link.

    But:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> this person spends maybe 5 minutes just putting links and a re-direct. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This makes it sound as if he may be referring to a lame link-farm page, which just has regular affiliate links going to the merchant. If this is the case, the below applies:

    If the customer has to click a link on the affiliate site, then it doesn't matter if all the person did was put CLICK HERE on a white page--it's legal! In fact, if all they did is put CLICK HERE (or something similar), then GOOD! People wouldn't be too persuaded by such an uninviting page, basically nullifying its competitiveness and making your results in the SERPs just as if that page didn't exist.

    Don't try to force any TOS-compliant (but lame) competition to improve. Let them lose conversions in peace as YOU be the next stop on the searcher's travels, convince the searchers to buy through YOUR links, and you laugh all the way to the bank!

    Always make sure the gun is aimed away from your own foot before firing.

    ~Cheapskate merchants need not apply

  17. #17
    ABW Ambassador Akiva's Avatar
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    Ditto what Leader said.

    Akiva Bergstrom, Affiliate Partner Manager
    Email: akiva@affsolutions.com | AIM: akivabergs | ICQ: 240820068

    <FONT SIZE=1> M A N A G E D P R O G R A M S

    <FONT SIZE=1>> EssentialApparel.com - CJ/7.5% to 8.5%/120 days/Datafeed/Parasite free > Join now! <
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  18. #18
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    Right, the impression I got was that it is just a link page full of banners. Which, though not illegal, won't convert too well either. I must confess, though, that my process for developing a site is like this: I will build a skeleton of a site, maybe 75-100 pages, place a few lame banners on each page, and upload it as quickly as possible. I want google to find as many pages as soon as possible. I then go back page at a time, and flesh out the site. Heh, so at any given time, I will have any number of lame pages floating about!

    - - - - - - - - -
    I will FOCUS on my goal, and I shall NOT be denied.

  19. #19
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    jasonco,

    I sent you a PM last night but forgot to post it and let you know here

  20. #20
    ABW Ambassador Joey's Avatar
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    Ok call me controversial, but where does it say that the person who puts in the most work should make the most money? I've heard it said again and again, "affiliate marketing is a game of working smarter, not harder".

    It seems to me that auto-redirecting visitors through PPC links has become a fairly standard practice, so what makes non-ppc links any different? If a person works hard to earn good pagerank and a good search engine ranking, don't they deserve the right to do the same thing with their traffic that a person paying $.20 per click does?

    I personally wouldn't auto-redirect visitors, mainly because I'd rather pre-sell and create site-stickiness before passing along the traffic. Most affiliates who redirect will see lower conversion ratios and ultimately be penalized by the search engines. But how does it make any difference to you if someone else chooses to redirect their traffic?

  21. #21
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    Everyone has some valid points.

    I have seen many sites that all they do is re-direct from SE and go straight to merchant and many sites like the one I am talking about. But what I am saying is not whether they are doing something wrong or not, but is this legal, immoral, accepted by everyone, including merchants and networks.

    I have a strong believe in that any business in the world or internet should be able to run their business as they see fit as long as it is legal and not a monopoly. I believe in freedom of speech, religion, politics etc. I am a very peaceful person and do not believe in violence or even some Flame Wars and attacks that happen here, I also believe in democracy and in smart differences of opinion. But if you try to take me for a fool or take advantage, like I see most of us here have been taken advantage through the years by use of some of these tactics from merchants, networks and members, then it's time for a change in attitude.

    Here is what I am saying.

    I develop my sites in the following way.

    I design a one page template or index page for merchant based around the banners and links provided by merchant. Then I add content keywords, meta tags, a search box if they have one, products from diff categories on this same page. All is done in a nice professional looking design with no pop-ups, flash, no tricks.

    I then create diff pages based on the available categories for this merchant. If they have 5 diff categories then I use this same template and create a product page based on each category.

    If merchant has a datafeed, then I also create a detail page that will contain all products from this merchant for each product available.

    Perhaps I am going about it all wrong. I want to create both a site that when seen by a cust they will feel confident about returning and buying at any time. Also create enough pages and keywords and content from merchant so that when a cust searches SE they will find me. Like they do already so I know the design works.

    Now, what you are saying is that I do not have to go through all this, as long as I create a site like the one in question then its all that matters?

    This person's site all they have is:

    1 - a banner for each merchant, now I did see new merchants never seing before and some good ABW merchants that were not listed at all

    2 - when you click on small merchant banner it then re-directs you to a blank page for a few seconds then to merchants site, then a pop-up asking you to bookmark site.

    That's it, no products, images, no links, no coupons, no incentives, no specials, nothing.

    If this is cool and what is going to be done eventually by most people in this business wether you are honest or not, then what is the purpose of all my troubles when they will rank just as good as my site and with less time on design. Infact you never have to download or update anything because as long as merchant always has a landing page and merchant site never goes down
    or out of business, then "it's a dream".

    Now I must say this person's site does look very good. It is well done, looks very appealing, but does it matter to any one.

    I know this could be true, what Leader says: "People wouldn't be too persuaded by such an uninviting page". Perhaps 80 percent of customers will probably not buy anything and go back to SE and try again, but is a right.


    Just a discussion I don't want War, yet.

  22. #22
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    "when you click on small merchant banner..."

    That's the key for me. If the viewer is actually clicking the link, then there is no problem.

    It's a different style of site than yours, but not 'illegal' as you describe it.

    It's not my style of site either - I work more along your lines, but I have no problem with what you describe on an ethical level. As leader says, it's not going to appeal to all customers.

    If you think about it, your content probably gives you a much broader reach in the search engines too. That content will give you a wide range of search terms, where banners on their own are very limiting. That is a large part of your payoff for creating content.

    If you were talking about clicking on a Google search result for www.splodgits.com and being auto-redirected to www.merchant.com without ever seeing splodgits.com, then that I do not agree with.

  23. #23
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    I find nothing unethical about doing less work in and of itself! At all!

    Of course, the above sentence only applies when the non-worker doesn't stoop to stealing or crookery. That's carrying it too far, of course!

    But more work in and of itself does not make something holier than anything else, nor is it more ethical to do more work than the next guy. It's just a waste of energy if you can get the same results with more efficient means (again, I'm meaning without stealing or other crookery!). And working *just for the sake of working* definitely has no benefit whatsoever except in the mind of the one doing it!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> is this legal, immoral, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    A banner farm is legal and NOT immoral. One man's "paint thrown at canvas from a Sherwin Williams can" is the next guy's modern art. It's a matter of taste, not morality.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> accepted by everyone, including merchants and networks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Some merchants will accept such a site and some won't. The merchants who don't are usually shooting themselves in the foot! Not because a banner farm will convert much, but because site design tends to improve as the webmaster gets experience.

    As for networks, they usually accept anything that's not porn, warez, hate-promoting, or something of that nature.

    I STRONGLY support the acceptance of darned near everything, design-wise. This is because what a lot of people think of as "good site design" simply WON'T SELL SHEET! Also, it's because practice and testing is about the only way to determine what WILL really work.

    Plus, merchants who are more concerned with design than with sales often find out, too late to save themselves, that SALES are what pay the bills and NOT design!

    For the record, I have nothing against the standard redirect (click SERP, BAM, hello merchant site), and think it's about the biggest red herring to hit here in a couple of years. Competition in the SERPs is competition in the SERPs, either you beat it or you do not. People who can't out-sell a plain redirect should be outta luck just like losing to any other competitor!

    **I will note that this does not apply to tricks like plastering commissionable cookies on a person's computer *without* ever delivering them to the merchant site. After all, the merchant is contracting to get more *real business*, not just to have his cookie slapped on every computer from here to Cambodia without even getting traffic for it.

    But in general, competition is competition and the objective is to stomp it ALL in regardless of its quality or lack thereof.

    ~Cheapskate merchants need not apply

  24. #24
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    I just do not believe the premise of this thread frm the begining.

    You had a customer who put two words into Google...and then you lost a sale...and now you want to ask the other site owner about its design?

    Why don't you just come right out and say you are trying to out the site? And you might as well post the url if you are going to post the pid.

  25. #25
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimbo2002:
    I just do not believe the premise of this thread frm the begining.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Damn, I can't believe I wasted my time reading this thread. SPAM Sites Positioned Above Mine!

    Just because they are doing AM DIFFERENTLY than you is not cause for outting them for doing something malicious. Thank God the Managers here have good heads on their shoulders because I'm sure they have to weed through a bunch of these types of complaints.

    If you're so convinced that this person is making more money with less work, why not try a test of your own? Don't copy but try making some pages doing less and see how it goes. LEARN and experiment and stop complaining!

    The #1 reason I still read anything here is to find out information about Merchants and Scumware.

    #2 is I'm waiting for my site to be listed here. "Did you see her site? She's got the same "Contact Us" link on EVERY PAGE! OMG!"

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