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  1. #1
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    Haiko:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 10. Ok so the thread then gets some more input from Ben, still nothing is put forth about CJ/BF, but then again why should it? It's LS season now, Right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Fair Bashing Request
    Is Todd back from vacation yet? If so, why hasn't CJ/BeFree booted out 180 Soulutions and their relatives yet?
    See this thread for requesting any missing details of proof you need as to the valadity of the thefth claims.

    Thank You???

    [edited title of thread to keep content on topic]

    [edited title once again because off topic discussion and diversions and moved to the cafe']
    Mash Your Motor!

  2. #2
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    There has been UNfair bashing of CJ (and a few legit complaints) for years and years.

    I'll say it again--IT'S ABOUT TIME LS got their just desserts, regardless of any new mystery posters (2gunshorty)/coincidences!

    Why is anyone trying to blow smoke over LS's problems or proposing that we buy Messer's spin uncritically?!
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  3. #3
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    Good point Leader, maybe this is some sort of diversionary tactic!!!
    Mash Your Motor!

  4. #4
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Before you start being sarcastic, do a search and you'll find literally hundreds of threads where Haiko had No problem letting all kinds of undeserved BS be thrown at CJ.

    There is NO reason whatsoever that LS deserves any better treatment. What they DO deserve IMO, is to get the full brunt of the well-founded complaints they have managed to avoid or talk around. Any better perception about them than CJ is solely due to the LS spin machine.
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Yes LS deserves the heat, but so does CJ and PFX ... this is affecting your earnings with CJ! I specifically said open new threads in the LS and CJ forums both, it's not diversionary it's all inclusive!

    If a three children are all guilty of the same thing, why don't you discipline all three? Because they've been scolded too many times? How asinine is that? Let's get real here!
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  6. #6
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    It's no more asinine than taking the heat off the one who always gets away with it because he's some kind of favorite son!!!

    Pretty soon the REALLY bad kid (LS) is right back at it like always only everyone forgets it and is kissing his ass for some reason! That's pure HorseHockey as you would say!
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  7. #7
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Sorry, I have been slipping. I promise to get back to CJ bashing.

    So many bad networks, so little me!

    I need some help here!
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  8. #8
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leader:
    Before you start being sarcastic, do a search and you'll find literally hundreds of threads where Haiko had No problem letting all kinds of undeserved BS be thrown at CJ. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Leader my problem with that thread was not that it was against LS, I couldn't care less who it was ... my problem was the manipulation by newbies, Brian Clark and others (can't violate privacy here) into what that thread became. I said open a new thread but I would not allow for the outright manipulation of the thread that led to rediculous mis conceptions and wierd perceptions that were only based on steering by certain members. -- That NEVER happened with a CJ bashing thread.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is NO reason whatsoever that LS deserves any better treatment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I fully agree and don't expect anyone to back down from ANY network who allows 180 with their current methods and tactics.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What they DO deserve IMO, is to get the full brunt of the well-founded complaints ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    LS, CJ and PFX deserves it ... all of them.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  9. #9
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    I wasn't being sarcastic, I was serious. I agree that CJ has been under attack more so than LS, I also understand that Todd hasn't been around lately and thats probably the main reason there hasn't been more posted in the CJ forum recently about this. But since it was requested and since CJ does appear to be just as guilty as LS, I don't see any reason not to honor that request. CJ has just as many questions to answer as LS does so just because they've had more heat in the past don't mean anything more to me than their next revised TOS because I don't think they would honor it anymore than LS does. I don't believe or trust either one of em.
    Mash Your Motor!

  10. #10
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leader:
    It's no more asinine than taking the heat off the one who always gets away with it because he's some kind of favorite son!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    When did I ever take the heat off? I said ALL networks have to answer to this.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Pretty soon the REALLY bad kid is right back at it like always only everyone forgets it and is kissing his ass for some reason! That's pure HorseHockey as you would say! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The really bad kid here isn't LS or CJ nor PFX ... it's 180 ... that's the issue, they are the ones stealing from us and since our "Trusted Third Parties" are all financially gaining they are the ones we can not let forget that we don't accept it and that the CoC and Addendum are both shit if they [the networks] keep kissing 180's "ass", that is Horsehockey!
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  11. #11
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    I can't say they don't deserve it, but I think the ABW commissary has been far from serving up even portions of whoop.

    As for PFX, no defending of them from me, they haven't gotten a good enough pile either, and there's quite a few things they could address. But commicating *anything* with that place about any subject is like talking to a *&(^ brick wall!
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  12. #12
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RoadKill:
    I also understand that Todd hasn't been around lately and thats probably the main reason there hasn't been more posted in the CJ forum recently about this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That doesn't, as you continue to say, refute the fact that answers are needed from CJ also, because it's your money that's being lost here, there is NO reason to allow the CJ or PFX side to be swept under the rug, and damned well neither LS either.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  13. #13
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leader:
    I can't say they don't deserve it, but I think the ABW commissary has been far from serving up even portions of whoop! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Agreed, but please don't see my request to post here as well as opening a new thread in the LS forum anything but taking control of the manipulation that was going on in that thread which most certainly wasn't done by LS. I want equal accountability from all networks on this as well as definitive answers and resolutions.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  14. #14
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    UH OH! I'm not fast enough to keep up with the postings, 4 posts before I could answer. I'll move over to the slow lane and let everyone go by for awhile.

    I do hope we can all remain friends and I'd sure like to know what Mike and Charlie think too, wheres Todd when you need him?
    Mash Your Motor!

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador Ron Bechdolt's Avatar
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    Oh, Boy, CJ Bashing!!! I have not done that in months.

    Lets's see, what can I complain about?

    1.......
    2.......
    3.......

    Darn, I'm must be losing my touch.

    Oh, I remember, my balance font is too small on my CJ page.

    (Just having fun. You all know I can really get into this if I wanted to.)
    Ron Bechdolt | Affiliate Program Management Consultant
    7 Days A Week Marketing

  16. #16
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    ALL of the networks are responsible for allowing this to happen! They have all had an equal hand in corrupting the affiliate marketing industry.

    All of them can see what is going on, but since they profit from it, they act like they're too stupid to breathe, and can't "replicate" the results. They don't need to replicate anything! They damn well know what's going on, and turn a blind eye to it!

    We're being lied to, used, and taken advantage of. And we're supposed to be happy with whatever is left over.

    Andy

  17. #17
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Copied from another poster in another thread. I don't remember where but it should help with the CJ bashing.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> - CJ -
    - full, totally consumed with parasites
    - many merchants don't answer emails
    - CJ chooses when they want to reply and when they don't, affiliates don't matter to them, they have their big parasite earners
    - products option is a nightmare to work with for any merchant with more than 1000 products
    - big merchant names but most are parasitic
    - tons and tons of affiliates but how many are actually selling anything?
    - CJ charges affiliates for stop payments for lost cheques (is this even legal??)
    - MANY tracking issues or so it seems but "everything is normal" - they have the most complaints about this
    - datafeeds are not free unless you produce $10,000 per month in sales (I hope this is right)
    - extends merchants who don't pay without letting anyone know and reverses sales when a merchant is out of funds. If merchant doesn't pay, oh well, affiliates lose their money.
    - stats very slow to update
    - links and banners blocked by Norton, and cookies considered spyware by all spyware removal programs <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  18. #18
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    Stephen opened the can of worms in the LS forum with a weak and insulting attempt to justify forming a cooperative relationship with 180. That was the trigger. The impetus was the pent-up anger we have at being treated like cannon fodder. Ben publishing his data during that dialogue added even more heat. (But he didn't start the fire, that was Stephen's doing.)

    I don't think this is a matter of CJ being exempt from the discussion. All the network pots are simmering, but LS's was on the boil. Stephen kept yammering away; Todd did a disappearing act.

    The way I see it, it was just LS's turn. And since LS offers fewer benefits to affiliates than CJ (direct deposit, consolidated payment) I expect that many of us consider them more expendable. I know I do.

  19. #19
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Stephen opened the can of worms in the LS forum with a weak and insulting attempt to justify forming a cooperative relationship with 180. That was the trigger. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeppers!
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  20. #20
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    This only issue here is the behavior of 180Solutions software and advertisers with 180 and any Network or independent program which is allowing 180 to operate in violation of their TOS/TOC/Addendum. As far as Networks go, this would extend further out than just CJ/BF, LS, or PFX since more Networks are invovled than just these 3.

    This is not about if LS or CJ has been 'bashed' more in the past. This is truly an equal opportunity Network issue.

    It is not about Network server up times, consolidated checks, lost checks, Network spiders, Network reporting interfaces, Network communication, etc. etc. etc. that the Networks have taken heat about. It is only about (and should only be about) why the practices of 180Solutions software and it being a vehicle for other affiliates to operate and the response or lack of response by Networks and independent affiliate programs.

    And I do have a BIG problem that the reporting/discussions of the the data of the research would even appear not to hold all Networks to the same level of accountability. This is not helpful at all to the overall problem or possible solutions.

    Regarding CJ/BF in particular since this thread is for them. From Ben's article:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I can see that 180 currently causes users' computers to invoke at least 12 distinct LinkShare accounts and at least 37 distinct Commission Junction accounts (25 for bfast and 12 for qksrv). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    12 vs 37 account ID's identified during the testing time by Ben. Hmmmm. Of course the spending budgets associated with those accounts, timers built into 180's software, etc would impact upon overall how frequently any particular Network's tracking is being served by 180's software. However, my first gut reaction would be to think that the Network with more ID's is being impacted the most.

  21. #21
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And since LS offers fewer benefits to affiliates than CJ (direct deposit, consolidated payment) I expect that many of us consider them more expendable. I know I do.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You are perfectly within your rights to feel that way about the different Networks. However, do you realize the message that sends? You are basically saying to CJ they can get away with taking no action because you don't find them expendable.

  22. #22
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    This is clearly labeled "CJ/BeFree Todd Crawford Bashing Season Thread". It does not say bash about 180, only. Sorry, but the topic implies bash at will, not just about what is on your mind at this moment, Ms. B.

    Now, I say that with all due respect. But, the door has been left wide open here. Had it been labeled, "Bash CJ/BeFree about 180", I would have agreed.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  23. #23
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    As to Ms. B's analysis of which networkis affected more: I found somewhat more CJ merchants targeted than LS merchants targeted. (Most of the "double" merchants on my list are CJ merchants, and most "silent" merchants are LS merchants.)

    But the difference wasn't as large as the 3:1 ratio of affiliate IDs. Rather, 180 and its advertisers were using more distinct affiliate IDs to target CJ merchants, whereas they were using fewer distinct IDs to target LS merchants (but each ID was being used to target more merchants).

    All in all, my sense has been that both networks have been targeted pretty intensely, and I certainly didn't intend the 37 and 12 figures to suggest that I thought CJ was being targeted three times as much as LS.

  24. #24
    ABW Ambassador Nova's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> my sense has been that both networks have been targeted pretty intensely <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Correction Merchants had been targeted pretty intensely. (lol... sorry if I misunderstood the english I am reading.)

    It doesn' cost nothing for networks, they get paid either way. (unless i'm wrong?)

    What COC stand for? Crooks Overwriting Commission
    Don't worry tracking is Infected

    Live life to the fullest, You only get 1 chance. Enjoy it while you can... Nothing last forever!

  25. #25
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    Nova, I was intending to explain my sense that merchants on both networks were being intensively targeted. I wouldn't want to conclude, or lead others to conclude (on the basis of my research or posts here), that one merchant is (say) three times as targeted as another. Sorry for any ambiguity in my message.

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