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  1. #1
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    I would like some creative ideas for people to leave the network trap.

    We as a group are extremely unhappy with the perceived injustices of the networks. Yet, many of us feel that we cannot function in this profession without depending on the networks to provide us with a constant supply of merchants who are willing to pay us to ply our trade. We feel trapped and victimized by circumstances.

    I suggest that we do NOT need networks at all and that we should seek ways to leave them behind and forge forward in an entirely different direction.

    When the networks came in to being, as I understand, there were problems in the industry. There were dishonest merchants and the networks were supposed to be the trusted third parties that ensured honesty. Are all network merchants honest now? Networks were supposed to ensure that we were paid for the work we do by maintaining adequate escrow. Do networks ensure that now? By using networks we were supposed to get paid for every customer we sent to a merchant who bought something. Does that happen when you work with network merchants now?

    I suggest that networks no longer serve their function and that the time has come to put our heads together and find a way to retain most of the features we and the merchants need and want outside of the networks.

    One of the most important functions of a network is to maintain a massive list of merchants seeking affiliates. It is from these network lists that we find most of our merchants. Can we not do that ourselves? Can we not locate merchants who want to do business and make a master list accessible to affiliates? Could this list not be made in such a way that any merchant who wanted to could choose a category and list themselves, telling pertinent information about their program? Also, could not search be incorporated so that the merchant could add 4 or 5 keywords telling the kind of merchandise they sale? Would you not find such a list helpful?

    Would this not solve the NORTON PROBLEM?

    True there would not be consolidated payments. But, only CJ and SAS do that now, anyway.

    As to passwords, We could certainly encourage the merchants to set up their programs so that the affiliate could choose their own. Perhaps, that could be a part of the requirement to be listed.

    Is there no techinical way we could see stats from assorted merchants reported in one place?

    I would like feedback. If you don't like it fine. If you do, good. Give me the benefit of ways it can be better.

    If you have a better idea, I want to hear it.

    Let's figure a way out of this trap!
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  2. #2
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    I can't say I "don't like" it, but the thing is, if you do everything for affiliates that makes being in a network worthwhile--then you will actually become a network. Or at least a "non-network" network like BeFree.

    But here's what I think it would take to compete against the current networks:

    Find a way to get all the stats together in one interface and you've solved a major part of the indie problem other than the lack of escrow accounts. Nobody with any sense would WANT to have to log into 50 different places just to see how they're doing for the day.

    As for the passwords, it's not who picks them that's the issue. It's just the thought of having to keep track of bucketloads of them, that's bad.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> True there would not be consolidated payments. But, only CJ and SAS do that now, anyway.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeah, and out of the networks, CJ and SAS are the only ones worth my time, and that is a big part of the reason.

    And you'll need a system-wide TOS in order to prohibit parasites and other fraud at a level above the merchant's individual decisions.

    Add all that together, and it ends up being a network. But without all those features, there doesn't seem to be an inherent benefit over the existing networks. SAS already has all of that, even the no-parasite Terms.
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  3. #3
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Actually, I wasn't thinking of a TOS at all. I was thinking of fair disclosure.

    In otherwords, if a merchant has parasites or accepts them they should disclose that fact along with all other pertenant information up front when they list their site. They allow incentives or the don't allow them. They allow cookie setting pop-ups or they don't allow them....etc. We would have to be sure we covered all bases in the form they would fill out to be listed. Any untruthfulness would cause notification to be sent to all affiliates and removal from the list.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Find a way to get all the stats together in one interface <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Anyone out there knowlegible about this?
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  4. #4
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    That sounds cool...

    But what happens if a para sneaks in? Merchants claim that quite a bit. How would we know if it was really because one *snuck* in as opposed to the door being "accidentally" left open?
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  5. #5
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    I don't know all the answers, and that is one I am mulling over. My hope is that the others here have thoughts on this and how to handle it. (But, don't let that slow you down! LOL)

    Surely we can come up with some thoughts on it.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  6. #6
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Idea, one thing we could do is make information available from merchant to merchant. They could post such and so a parasite tried to sneak in and here is what to watch for. Once that had been posted, merchants could be held accountable.

    We could send a notification to merchants when this happened.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  7. #7
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    http://www.kolimbo.com Kolimbo Open Network.

    Most of my MYAP merchants stats are now together in one place. Lots of nice para free indys.

  8. #8
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What would be the advantage of a list here over SAS?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    SAS is wonderful and I encourage everyone to use it.

    This would have a whole lot of indie merchants who might never go to networks in the first place or who were with the networks and have been wanting a way out but had no other way to reach affiliates. I am sure there are a whole lot of merchants who would LOVE to either dump the networks or who would also like an indie program. They are as trapped as we are!
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  9. #9
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    I will look at http://www.kolimbo.com If we already have it, we need to push it.

    Tell us more about them. Do you use them? How many merchants do they have? What kind? Any big names? People aren't going to sign up just to take a peek. Give us the low down, OK?

    We need to be exploring all the alternatives we can.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  10. #10
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    MY son is taking me to dinner. I would love to see lots of ideas and alternative places when I check back.

    I hope I do.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  11. #11
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    Yes i use them, they have hundreds of merchants that are using the MYAP software. Andy, Linda have merchants using that software, need to get them on over there. There are some Kolimbo people around here. I wouldn't say they have big names as in big brand brick and mortar but there are some nice ones just have to do a little digging.

  12. #12
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    The Final and Only Solution:

    1) Decide what you want to sell.
    2) Stock it.
    3) Sell it.
    4) Ship it out.

    I'd like to see the looks on AM's faces when they call affiliates to hound them for more exposure, and the affiliates are telling them that they have opted to become a competitor rather than an affiliate.

  13. #13
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    Trust
    Do they have product links or only banners?
    Cazzie

  14. #14
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    The internet is a network, you can't be anything but a network on a network.

    One thing we could all do, is say to our best merchants...the only way I can continue to bring you sales and potential customers is if you move your program to SAS or go Indy.

    You might not want to do that if you are making more than say $300 per month in commissions from a merchant...but surely you could substitute a SAS merchant and make close to the same. If 10 affiliates all sent the same type of letter to a merchant and they were selling $3,000 a month worth of product each, you would have to be a pretty stupid merchant not to spend the $150 to open a SAS merchant account, so you could get back the $30,000 a month in sales you would lose.

  15. #15
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    Cazzie, some i have do have product links. Some merchants are using different versions of the software, i don't know the differences. I think it's up to each merchant what they will offer.

  16. #16
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Just be careful of any potential afftrack portion ... I think we've already covered that issue. Other than that and the fact that it's not a network (yet) it's just URL password and username login forwards to the specific programs, I'd say yeah look but beware, as with all indies ... you know ... will they pay etc? because it doesn't look like K! is guaranteeing payment via any escrows.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  17. #17
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Seems I've tried everything to get this board to get fired up on the solutions to recruiting, 100% foolproof sales reporting, BHO muzzling, Norton blockage and other benefits not offered by the current network model. Let's see March30th ... http://abw.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tp...6043#855106043

    Not hard to find here, over the past 2 years, where Me & Charlie uncovered the simple secret. Like my simple solution to ending the spam problem with a digi-eStamp requires swallowing a bitter pill, so does the perfect Safe Haven Network. Just a quick search on that term http://abw.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=se...rds=Safe+Haven shows neither the affiliate community -merchants- networks seek out a foolproof solution.

    The only thing it can't do is eliminate policing of the blind cookie stuffers. All else is foolproof with the only leakage coming from 800# phone sales. That's the problem as there is no wiggleroom for merchants used too skimming sales, BHO's from hijacking intranet shopper traffic. All domain bound affiliates could apply as can all network merchants, even if their infested with parasites.

    Only policing would be the "tricks for cookie setting clicks" players. There in lies the problem as each referral link gives that affiliate a valid commission cookie to ALL merchants in the network pool. Send his/her shopper to merchant A and he will get credit, if that return day cookie survives, on any purchase from merchant B and Z on that referral.

    In the Safe Haven network the merchants TRUE conversion ratio is totally transparent to all. It should equal of better their conversion ratio from all traffic sources killing off their major network programs due to no leakage. Crap affiliates and merchants will have to work on their page creatives more. Why? Because both the affiliates conversion ratio against his peers and the merchants against their competition are available. Yep ...the merchants networkwide conversion ratio (average clicks to produce one sale) will be published like EPC is at CJ.

    Only way to minimize policing the sleezey affiliates is to filter the tricks at their source. No affiliates cookie or merchant's house cookie can be set from a PPCSE listing. No SERP link can can trigger a blind redirect. No network creatives via popup or unders allowed on an affiliates site. No iframes allowed as all links to a merchant require a simple physical click from the affiliates own page or double opt-in e-mail special.

    Those who have listened to my 10,000 posts know they'd have to throw away their crutches and walk on their own value-add path. The payoff would be watching the merchants squirm as the shoppers flocked to their more competitive competitor, unless they provide better service or products. Be nice to log-in and see your site is doing better then average with some unexpected blue bird sales that used to be called leakage."

    Now go do that ABW wayback machine search and also my numerious posts in the CoC meeting timeframe pointing out the networks "achilles Heel" which is their prime responsibility to the merchants to "recruit". They sure learned about that vulnerability and called together their 3rd party BHO friendly AM firms and pushed parasites and Super/Duper consolidation as the network mantra ever since. You guys and Gals recall all those merchant e-mails poo-pooing the downsizing/weeding of the affiliate numbers as if we're no longer needed. Don't look at the face value of such message threats ...look at the motives of those calling the shots to those hired guns.

    Time to circle our collective wagons before we get skinned and scalped. Only solice I have is in reading my own tagline.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  18. #18
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    What's the afftrack portion? What i do is just look for merchants, sign up and they show up in Kolimbo. I can login and see all the stats from the 1 login. When you go to make links you click log in under the merchant you want to make links for and that takes you outside the kolimbo network to merchant affiliate admin page where you can go to get links. So i don't believe i'm mixed up with that?

    "I'd say yeah look but beware, as with all indies ... you know ... will they pay etc? because it doesn't look like K! is guaranteeing payment via any escrows. "

    Haiko, Andy has a lot of programs using that software and i've never had a problem getting paid. Payment comes from the merchant right? not K.

  19. #19
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TrustNo1®:
    What's the afftrack portion? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ummm, http://www.myaffiliateprogram.com/mo...myaffstats.asp

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>MyAffStats
    KowaBunga! Technologies has teamed up with AffTrack - the leaders in Affiliate reporting and analysis tools - to bring you MyAffStats. This tool is a revolutionary development that bridges the gap between inhouse and network-run Affiliate Programs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Haiko, Andy has a lot of programs using that software and i've never had a problem getting paid. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Good, not all indie merchants are created equal.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Payment comes from the merchant right? not K. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Can you then explain what the KB Pay or KB Approval mean in find new programs? (see screenshot below)
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  20. #20
    pph Expert! Gordon's Avatar
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    Am I correct in thinking this is the Wayne Porter outfit that sold their users stats?
    One day parasites and their ilk will be made illegal, I bet a few Lawyers will be pissed off when the day comes.
    Mr. Spitzer is fetching it nearer

    YouTrek

  21. #21
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    The afftrack portion is opt-in, i'm not opting in

    "Good, not all indie merchants are created equal."

    Not any kind of merchant indy or network are created equal. I've always said look for good merchants, period. No matter where they're located.

    "Can you then explain what the KB Pay or KB Approval mean in find new programs? (see screenshot below) "

    Don't know about that part. I know i get checks from the merchant and from your screenshot and from logging in there are no checkmarks or anything like that so i don't think that's even available at this time. Might be an option in the future, who knows, i'm not the Kolimbo network. I just know there are some nice parasite free indys in there.

    The way i'm seeing Kolimbo right now is one place where they got most of the MYAP merchants together, add them to your account and you can see all your stats from one login.

  22. #22
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Sorry but I am digressing to the list idea again
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> you will actually become a network <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, it would be different from a network in that it would make no money what so ever from affiliate sales. None of this "We only make money when you make money" crapola. Your making money would be your responsibility and have nothing to do with the list.

    Yes, there would be some minimal costs to maintaining it. Hopefully, not very much and that might come from banner ads from merchants who wanted to dance up and down saying, "Here we are". Or, maybe adsense or some such.

    I am thinking that the list would offer no warantee about the merchants. It would be the responsibility of the user to do their own homework and research the merchant.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  23. #23
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gordon:
    Am I correct in thinking this is the Wayne Porter outfit that sold their users stats? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    G-man,

    Kinda, Wayne no longer works for them and they were stopped from selling the stats by a lawsuit from Linkshare, but yes it's the same outfit.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  24. #24
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Well, that makes them a more feasable choice, doesn't it?

    I am thinking that we may not need one answer but several answers.

    We DO need other options than the networks and we all need to know what they are so we can use what is there and possibly add to it.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  25. #25
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    There's always been other options. Affiliate marketing existed before networks, can exist without them. There are indys all over the place. My only problem with them is you just have to login a lot of different places. Annoying but in the end i really don't have a problem with it because 99% will be parasite free and most of them there is little to no competition. Yes, there are going to be some that suck. There are some that suck in the networks too. Trial and error, drop the ones that suck, but when you find one that's good, it's really nice There are some i've found with less than 50 affiliates, some with very nice AM's. No problems with converting or getting paid. Just gotta do the work and find them.

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