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  1. #1
    Affiliate Manager qualityunit's Avatar
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    Do I worry about Flash Cookies ?
    I think everyone saw during last few weeks news about legal action against companies using Flash cookies.
    e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10787882

    I saw some posts in this forum too (some of you were scared, when discovered local storage of Flash), but there was nobody, who explained the problem in detail. I know technical background, but I would love to understand also legal part of this problem.

    In general Flash cookies tracking is just a part of much more complex visitor identification mechanism and I don't think the Flash Cookies are the problem or something what you should be scared of.
    All are scared of Flash Cookies, but this is just another technology, it is not the root of the problem.

    The root of the problem is the way how companies store information about visitor and how they later handle those data.


    Are Flash Cookies the only technology?

    NO !

    The same thing you can implement with
    - Silverlight Isolated Storage,
    - Google Gears,
    - DOM5 storage
    - and maybe there are some other similar technologies, which I don't know.

    All those technologies allow developers to store local data on visitor's computer and later identify visitor by those data.

    More details about Flash Cookies (Local Shared Objects) you can find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Shared_Object

    Some not organized thoughts and questions about this topic - please help me to find answers:
    1. I'm not afraid of Flash cookies or any other technology. I'm afraid of how companies tracking "my Internet life" handle data about me - this is my privacy.
    Where is the border between private and public data ?

    2. Is it problem, that somebody "tagged me" and later helps me to improve my user experience? NO, I love it.

    3. Duplicate cookies - technology used by current operating systems and browsers allows developers to store same information by multiple technologies on our computers.
    - Is it illegal to store in each type of storage the same information ?
    - Is it illegal if user decided to delete one instance of this information (e.g. browser cookie) and web application will load it from another instance stored on computer ?
    - Is it illegal to restore value of browser cookie from flash cookie or another type of storage? If yes, please explain why.


    Thx.
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]Viktor Zeman[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [B][URL=http://www.qualityunit.com/]Quality Unit [/URL][/B] Founder and [B][URL=http://www.qualityunit.com/postaffiliatepro/]Post Affiliate Pro[/URL][/B] developer

  2. #2
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    Viktor.......Good post in my opinion.

    2. Is it problem, that somebody "tagged me" and later helps me to improve my user experience? NO, I love it.
    Personally...........I do not like for someone else deciding what help that I may need. Let me work out my own user experience. Inform me and give me an option.
    Last edited by Witzer; August 27th, 2010 at 04:43 PM.
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  3. #3
    The Seal of Aproval rematt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    In general Flash cookies tracking is just a part of much more complex visitor identification mechanism and I don't think the Flash Cookies are the problem or something what you should be scared of.
    All are scared of Flash Cookies, but this is just another technology, it is not the root of the problem..
    Understood, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Great argument, been used before.

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    The root of the problem is the way how companies store information about visitor and how they later handle those data...
    Actually I would say that the root of the problem is when, if and how companies obtain permission to collect the data in the first place. The only reason for organizations to use methods that provide "persistent data" is because users don't want to be tracked. By using methods for persistent data, companies are basically saying, "screw your privacy, my need to know comes first". That attitude is fine, as long as they let the user know that they are being tracked AGAINST THEIR WISHES so that users can avoid their sites.

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    Are Flash Cookies the only technology?

    NO !

    The same thing you can implement with
    - Silverlight Isolated Storage,
    - Google Gears,
    - DOM5 storage
    - and maybe there are some other similar technologies, which I don't know.

    All those technologies allow developers to store local data on visitor's computer and later identify visitor by those data.
    See my post here..., in a nutshell, multiple wrongs, don't make a right or lessen the impact of the original issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    Some not organized thoughts and questions about this topic - please help me to find answers:
    1. I'm not afraid of Flash cookies or any other technology. I'm afraid of how companies tracking "my Internet life" handle data about me - this is my privacy.
    Where is the border between private and public data ?
    The border is informed consent. If I'm given the option and I opt-in to a companies collection of my private data then I've given them the right to collect and store that data. If I have not given my consent or the organization uses Flash cookies or other technologies to circumvent my desire to keep my private data private then they've crossed the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    2. Is it problem, that somebody "tagged me" and later helps me to improve my user experience? NO, I love it.
    I agree, as long as I've given them permission to "tag" me and I can easily remove that "tag" when I want it removed. As noted in
    Flash Cookies and Privacy from the Social Science Research Network : "These uses are different than using Flash cookies as secondary, redundant unique identifiers that enable advertisers to circumvent user preferences and self-help."

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    3. Duplicate cookies - technology used by current operating systems and browsers allows developers to store same information by multiple technologies on our computers.
    - Is it illegal to store in each type of storage the same information ?
    - Is it illegal if user decided to delete one instance of this information (e.g. browser cookie) and web application will load it from another instance stored on computer ?
    - Is it illegal to restore value of browser cookie from flash cookie or another type of storage? If yes, please explain why.
    As far as I know, none of these scenarios is illegal YET. I would argue that some of these techniques are certainly unethical. Locking a door doesn't give you the right to enter through a window. There is a reason that I closed the door in the first place. Organizations that use these technologies to go against my wishes should take a hint.

    Today one of the primary uses of these technologies is to circumvent user preferences and collect information that users have not given permission to organizations to collect, on the contrary, many users feel that setting their browser's privacy setting at a high level is sufficient. If more users were aware of this, you could bet that there would be a much larger outcry.

    -rematt
    Last edited by rematt; August 27th, 2010 at 05:09 PM.
    "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Richard Nixon

  4. #4
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    Do I worry about Flash Cookies ?

    I saw some posts in this forum too (some of you were scared, when discovered local storage of Flash), but there was nobody, who explained the problem in detail. I know technical background, but I would love to understand also legal part of this problem.

    In general Flash cookies tracking is just a part of much more complex visitor identification mechanism and I don't think the Flash Cookies are the problem or something what you should be scared of.

    All are scared of Flash Cookies, but this is just another technology, it is not the root of the problem.
    I don't use any microphone or webcam on my computer, so I really don't have to worry about flash cookies...

    But others may need to make sure that their PC or Laptop, is not transmitting audio (and), or video, without their knowledge...

    Read this:
    Did you know that your camera enabled computer can spy on you?

    Did you know that your camera enabled computer can spy on you? Did you know that by watching that video or playing that cute game you may be allowing a site to watch you? Did you know that YouTube (via s.ytimg.com) seems to be one such site? Source: Video Camera Spying

  5. #5
    The Seal of Aproval rematt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sal View Post
    I don't use any microphone or webcam on my computer, so I really don't have to worry about flash cookies...
    Au contraire, mon frère, from Flash Cookies and Privacy from the Social Science Research Network:

    "A Flash cookie can be set when a websites embeds first party or third party Flash content on a page. For instance, a website may include animated Flash banner advertisements served by a company that leases the advertising space or they may embed a hidden SWF used solely to provide metrics on the user. Thus, merely visiting some websites (without actually clicking on an advertisement or video) can cause Flash data from a third party advertiser to be stored on the user’s computer, often unbeknownst to the user. "
    -rematt
    "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Richard Nixon

  6. #6
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    Since most people don't know about Flash Cookies and they are not *easily* removed, yes people should be concerned about who is putting them on their computer and why.
    Deborah Carney
    TeamLoxly.com BookGoodies.com ABCsPlus.com

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador JoyUnltd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rematt View Post
    Au contraire, mon frère, from Flash Cookies and Privacy from the Social Science Research Network:
    "A Flash cookie can be set when a websites embeds first party or third party Flash content on a page. For instance, a website may include animated Flash banner advertisements served by a company that leases the advertising space or they may embed a hidden SWF used solely to provide metrics on the user. Thus, merely visiting some websites (without actually clicking on an advertisement or video) can cause Flash data from a third party advertiser to be stored on the user’s computer, often unbeknownst to the user. "
    A popular ecommerce use enables a store to keep their brand in front of a shopper's eyeballs, whether or not they make a purchase. How? By planting cookies for social sites, such as Facebook...so they can then serve up one of their ads when you log into your account. I discovered this while rooting through the flash cookies stored on my computer & then researching the companies associated with them. As rematt says, "informed consent."

    Some might say, "well, when you're on the Internet, you're in a public area...you don't have a choice." When you take a stroll through any popular urban area, there's usually folks around trying to hand you an advertising flyer. It's your choice to take it or refuse it. No one can stuff it in your pocket or purse just because you're in a public area.
    Last edited by JoyUnltd; August 27th, 2010 at 06:51 PM. Reason: grammar
    Renée
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  8. #8
    The Seal of Aproval rematt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxly View Post
    Since most people don't know about Flash Cookies and they are not *easily* removed, yes people should be concerned about who is putting them on their computer and why.
    Absolutely, again from Flash Cookies and Privacy from the Social Science Research Network:

    G. Privacy Policies
    We searched the privacy policies of the top 100 sites, looking for terms such as “Flash,” “PIE,” or “LSO.” Only 4 mentioned the use of Flash as a tracking mechanism. Given the different storage characteristics of Flash cookies, without disclosure of Flash cookies in a privacy policy, it is unclear how the average user would even know of the technology. This would make privacy self-help impossible except for sophisticated users.

    -rematt
    "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Richard Nixon

  9. #9
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoyUnltd View Post
    Some might say, "well, when you're on the Internet, you're in a public area...you don't have a choice." When you take a stroll through any popular urban area, there's usually folks around trying to hand you an advertising flyer. It's your choice to take it or refuse it. No one can stuff it in your pocket or purse just because you're in a public area.
    No one can stuff it in your pocket or purse just because you're in a public area?

    Well, maybe not on your pocket or purse, but someone usually stuff it in your car windshield, on most public parking lot...

  10. #10
    ABW Ambassador JoyUnltd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sal View Post
    Well, maybe not on your pocket or purse, but someone usually stuff it in your car windshield, on most public parking lot...
    There are usually nuisance laws against this but not always enforced. I used it just as an example, not for something about which to split hairs.
    Renée
    Pay no attention to that woman behind the curtain. -Wizardress of Oz

  11. #11
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    I'm surprised by the people in this thread that have a lackadaisical attitude about this. Just because I am on the internet doesn't mean I give any entity the *right* to put something on my computer I can't erase easily or that I haven't consented to. Isn't that the whole parasite and adware/spyware argument???? They have to have "informed consent", just because there is a backdoor doesn't mean people should be allowed or encouraged to use it.
    Deborah Carney
    TeamLoxly.com BookGoodies.com ABCsPlus.com

  12. #12
    Kung Fu Master Eathan's Avatar
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    Call me cranky, but technology so easily abused isn't something I feel like embracing today...
    Eathan Mertz

    Black Cat Mining - Gold Prospecting & Rockhounding Equipment

  13. #13
    Affiliate Manager qualityunit's Avatar
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    One more question :

    - if I installed on my computer software, which allows browsers to write data on my computer, isn't it confirmation, that I agree with full set of functionality the technology contains ? (In this case it was Macromedia Flash Player)
    Isn't it confirmation, that I agree, that I allow web apps to use full set of flash functionality on websites I visit ?
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]Viktor Zeman[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [B][URL=http://www.qualityunit.com/]Quality Unit [/URL][/B] Founder and [B][URL=http://www.qualityunit.com/postaffiliatepro/]Post Affiliate Pro[/URL][/B] developer

  14. #14
    Affiliate Manager qualityunit's Avatar
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    BTW: Do you have experiences with privacy policy documents? What should contain privacy policy document published on website if website uses flash cookies ?
    e.g. what do you think about our privacy policy declaration ? http://www.qualityunit.com/about-us/...-quality-unit/
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]Viktor Zeman[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [B][URL=http://www.qualityunit.com/]Quality Unit [/URL][/B] Founder and [B][URL=http://www.qualityunit.com/postaffiliatepro/]Post Affiliate Pro[/URL][/B] developer

  15. #15
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxly View Post
    I'm surprised by the people in this thread that have a lackadaisical attitude about this. Just because I am on the internet doesn't mean I give any entity the *right* to put something on my computer I can't erase easily or that I haven't consented to.
    Just because I posted above that "I really don't have to worry about flash cookies", doesn't mean that I don't care, or that I am happy with those flash cookies, but since there is nothing I can do about it, I have learned to just deal with it for the time being...
    Isn't that the whole parasite and adware/spyware argument????
    I don't think that the flash cookies from the Macromedia Flash Player have anything to do with parasites, but if they do, I am sure I would not waste my time worrying about it, like I did all these past years because people said ebates was bad, only to find out now on other posts, that they're not bad anymore... (Yea, right.)

    But anyway, I only allow flash cookies on my HD while I am on a site that I want to visit for videos, movies or tutorials, once I leave those sites, I immediately delete that stupid Macromedia folder, that keeps coming back on every new visit to any of those sites...

  16. #16
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rematt View Post
    Understood, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Great argument, been used before.
    Guns don't kill very many people. Bullets do.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoyUnltd View Post
    When you take a stroll through any popular urban area, there's usually folks around trying to hand you an advertising flyer. It's your choice to take it or refuse it. No one can stuff it in your pocket or purse just because you're in a public area.
    Unless you're walking anywhere near the Empyre Media booth at Affiliate Summit. Then you have to watch out or the booth babes will slap an Empyre Media sticker on your back.
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  17. #17
    The Seal of Aproval rematt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    - if I installed on my computer software, which allows browsers to write data on my computer, isn't it confirmation, that I agree with full set of functionality the technology contains ? (In this case it was Macromedia Flash Player)
    ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Do you really think that victims of Spyware actually consented to having their personal information stolen? "You know, I think I'll download this game and pass some credit card information on to the Russian mob".

    If you invite workmen into your home to repair your furnace, are you also giving them permission to steal your wallet? Molest your wife? Eat your corn flakes? Harvest your organs? I'm at a lost as to how you see the action of using a piece of software as giving permission to compromise my privacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    - Isn't it confirmation, that I agree, that I allow web apps to use full set of flash functionality on websites I visit ?
    Agree to what? Most of the top 100 websites (96%) don't even mention in their privacy policies that they're using Flash cookies and none of them outline exactly HOW they are using them.

    -rematt
    "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Richard Nixon

  18. #18
    Affiliate Manager qualityunit's Avatar
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    Is it enough, if the Flash cookies are mentioned in Privacy Policy document ? Is it already permission to write flash cookies ?
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]Viktor Zeman[/FONT][/SIZE]
    [B][URL=http://www.qualityunit.com/]Quality Unit [/URL][/B] Founder and [B][URL=http://www.qualityunit.com/postaffiliatepro/]Post Affiliate Pro[/URL][/B] developer

  19. #19
    The Seal of Aproval rematt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    Is it enough, if the Flash cookies are mentioned in Privacy Policy document ? Is it already permission to write flash cookies ?
    No and no. Intent has a lot to do with it. As you mentioned in an earlier post; Flash cookies can be used to improve the users experience. A good example of that would be to maintain volume levels for video. In that case a mention of the cookies in the privacy policy would probably be sufficient.

    If however the cookies are being used to track the behavior of users or to collect data that some users may deem private, there should be an EXPLICIT opt in with full disclosure of how that data is to be used and why it's necessary.

    In the case of re-spawning deleted HTML cookies, this behavior should not be allowed under any circumstances. The user has already expressed their desire to remove the cookie, no website or organization should be able to ignore that desire in favor of their own preferences. IT'S MY DATA AND IT'S MY COMPUTER. If you want to set up shop here then contact me and maybe we can work out some type of rental agreement. In the mean time; HANDS OFF.

    As you mentioned in your first post:

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    In general Flash cookies tracking is just a part of much more complex visitor identification mechanism and I don't think the Flash Cookies are the problem or something what you should be scared of.
    All are scared of Flash Cookies, but this is just another technology, it is not the root of the problem.

    The root of the problem is the way how companies store information about visitor and how they later handle those data.
    And I agree 100%. The problem is that I don't know who is going to have access to that data and how they intend to use it. I'd love to think that every organization, marketer and website that could possibly access that data has only my best interests at heart. However, I don't think I've ever been that naive. Too many organizations have rationalized their use of the data as benign and too many really couldn't care less about my privacy as long as they get the data that they feel they need.

    You yourself have hinted at the idea in 2 separate threads that since we're too stupid to understand the technology that we shouldn't be worried about having our privacy invaded. Could you be any more condescending?

    If organizations feel that the data that they are collecting shouldn't pose an issue with end users, then there should be no reluctance to fully disclosing the type, amount and use of that data BEFORE it's collected. The notification should be clear, concise and obvious. Not hidden on page 4 of the privacy policy or glossed over.

    -rematt
    Last edited by rematt; August 28th, 2010 at 02:12 PM.
    "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Richard Nixon

  20. #20
    Affiliate Manager qualityunit's Avatar
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    I don't think somebody is stupid because of lack of knowledge about technology.
    In other threads I wanted to point out, that not just Flash Cookies are the problem, but also all other types of technologies, which could do the same thing.

    BTW: thx. for answers, I always saw the problem from point of view of developer and not from view of simple user - it's good to see opinions of others.
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]Viktor Zeman[/FONT][/SIZE]
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  21. #21
    The Seal of Aproval rematt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    In other threads I wanted to point out, that not just Flash Cookies are the problem, but also all other types of technologies, which could do the same thing.
    Understood, but I'm not sure that the other technologies are as prevalent as Flash.

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityunit View Post
    BTW: thx. for answers, I always saw the problem from point of view of developer and not from view of simple user - it's good to see opinions of others.
    ABW, where affiliates, AMs, OPMs merchants and developers come together for intellectual discourse . That really is one of the major advantages of coming here, multiple points of view.

    From an affiliate point of view you'd think that I'd be in favor of a more persistent cookie. But the way that these are being utilized without consent, any benefit to tracking would be negated by the lack of trust that they would cause with users. Anything that negatively impacts the user experience has got to be bad for business.

    And as an end user, I value my privacy too much to trade it for what some sites consider an "enhanced" user experience.

    -rematt
    "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Richard Nixon

  22. #22
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rematt View Post
    From an affiliate point of view you'd think that I'd be in favor of a more persistent cookie. But the way that these are being utilized without consent, any benefit to tracking would be negated by the lack of trust that they would cause with users. Anything that negatively impacts the user experience has got to be bad for business.
    Exactly right. And when some overstep the boundaries, that's when the government steps in, the security programs start blocking things, etc. Just look at the networks that aren't as strict at prohibiting bad behavior and how often they have problems with security programs blocking their cookies.
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  23. #23
    The Seal of Aproval rematt's Avatar
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    Some users are already paranoid about standard HTML cookies. Imagine how they'd freak if they knew what these cookies were capable of.

    -rematt
    "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Richard Nixon

  24. #24
    ABW Ambassador JoyUnltd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rematt View Post
    Some users are already paranoid about standard HTML cookies. Imagine how they'd freak if they knew what these cookies were capable of.
    As an affiliate, when I first heard about Flash cookies I was for them. But seeing what they are capable of, I can't support their use. On the other hand, speaking to friends/family about these issues: they are clueless & can't be bothered. Their eyes glaze over when I bring up any of this. Despite all we hear about identity theft, average consumers may know about it but haven't taken steps to protect themselves.

    I think that many feel that once they've mastered email, googling, buying online & Facebook, they're good to go. They've absorbed about as much information as they're willing to learn or act on...& have more pressing life issues to wrap their minds around.

    As for including Flash cookie usage in Privacy Policies—have you ever read an ecommerce privacy policy before shopping? Maybe as an affiliate—you're more aware, but I doubt 99.999% read the fine print.
    Renée
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