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  1. #1
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    Hello All,

    I am promoting a 1$ merchant at CJ

    Yes reversals do happen, no big deal...Nothing new about them,

    But if we collect together a few points here, Mebbe we could see the merchant cheating.

    Well, in general terms when a merchant goes through a huge sale - he would just simply reverse it...And CJ allows them to do that

    I Got 2 big sales yesterday with values
    which accounted in a commission of over $80

    Now, This happened late night USA time perhaps 9 p.m or so, and now early morning - I assume the time to be around 5 a.m - I see both of them reversed

    REASON - Invalid CC for both the transactions

    1 sale - hmm perhaps
    but 2 sales = invalid cc's ?

    Too much of a coincidence...

    Does the merchant check all this info this early ? Invalid CC and all, They checked this info of the sale being invalid at night time ?

    This sounds fishy to me...But then again, What could I do?

    Write to them ? won't make a difference - Why r these reversals so easy ? Especially the invalid CC's

    Cmon If the CC's are invalid, how did they go through the purchase mechanism ?

    This is stupidity...

    Any Answers ?

    CJ - pls consider working on the Reversal Theory

    Lost a lot of cash [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img] Things don't seem right


    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)

  2. #2
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    quote:
    Originally posted by SkinGarments.com:
    Hello All,

    I am promoting a 1$ merchant at CJ

    Yes reversals do happen, no big deal...Nothing new about them,

    But if we collect together a few points here, Mebbe we could see the merchant cheating.

    Well, in general terms when a merchant goes through a huge sale - he would just simply reverse it...And CJ allows them to do that

    I Got 2 big sales yesterday with values
    which accounted in a commission of over $80

    Now, This happened late night USA time perhaps 9 p.m or so, and now early morning - I assume the time to be around 5 a.m - I see both of them reversed

    REASON - Invalid CC for both the transactions

    1 sale - hmm perhaps
    but 2 sales = invalid cc's ?

    Too much of a coincidence...

    Does the merchant check all this info this early ? Invalid CC and all, They checked this info of the sale being invalid at night time ?

    This sounds fishy to me...But then again, What could I do?

    Write to them ? won't make a difference - Why r these reversals so easy ? Especially the invalid CC's

    Cmon If the CC's are invalid, how did they go through the purchase mechanism ?

    This is stupidity...

    Any Answers ?

    CJ - pls consider working on the _Reversal Theory_

    Lost a lot of cash [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img] Things don't seem right


    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)


    It still surprises me that merchants arent required to document any of this reversal stuff.

    If they dont have to automatically document it, they should at least have to document it upon request (within say 72 hours) while it is still fresh and while we can still be paid in that pay period.

    With all this technology, it does not and should not take up to 60 days to get things done.

    As far as the "how did they get thru the purchase point", you are absolutely right. Maybe if it were fraudulent it could get thru, but they wouldnt know it that soon.

    Would you like to say who the merchant is??

  3. #3
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    I've never bought into the invalid CC reason for a reversal either. Even if the merchant doesn't actually charge the card in real time, you can betcha that they get the approval on the card in real time. So that means that if the customer entered an invalid card number, an expired card, a card over the limit, etc a denial would be issued in real-time and the customer gets a different page via the shopping cart and never even reaches the receipt page where the tracking code is supposed to be. I'm a ver small merchant, relatively speaking, and even I get my authorizations in real-time.

    I can buy the duplicate charge reason, in very limited quantities. I see this happen occassionally myself. The customer hits submit more than once or the gateway just belches and issues two authorizations off of one invoice number. But these are far and few themselves.

    Merchants need to have some accountability for the reversal reasons. It seems that merchants reverse and just choose any reason that tickles their fancy at the moment. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  4. #4
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    Well the merchant = Neptune Cigar Boutique

    seriously, This issue needs to be dealt with, and CJ is letting these merchants of the hook...

    If Reversals can go so easy, then CJ isn't a good place to be...

    I'll come up with something to fight against this...

    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)

  5. #5
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    Below is my copy of the mail i send out to the merchant, If the reversal came in so quickly, then lets see the time frame they take to mail me back...



    Hello,

    I Had 2 transactions of $53.54 and $33.86 which were reversed by you...The reason stated was invalid CC

    But to be frank, I doubt this decision taken by you...As I Could understand one sale being an invalid CC, but not 2

    This i feel is unfair and I wish to get a explanation for the same...

    It''s a huge amount for which I sincerely feel deprived of...

    Looking forward to a appropriate response...

    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)

  6. #6
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    I have to agree with you BLFH. No legitimate merchant has a shopping cart program or use manual verification that doesn't verify the card information. This is evident when you consider some one like Overstock processing millions of online orders monthly runs less than 1% fraud attempts. My small niche' merchant www.suspenders.com uses a manual approval technique for all major credit cards to verify balance and proper shipping addresses. Their cart screens out false card numbers and stolen cards and bogus billing addresses at a total expense of 20.00 per month.

    They have processed over 90,000 online transactions since 1997 with only 4 chargebacks. They also were at CJ for 2 years. These merchants running reversals above 6%, due to bad CC information, are either unwilling to spend 20.00 per month or purposely calculate the "pain level" their affiliates are willing to endure. I have some CJ merchants, who I cringe when they sell something over 500.00. 90% of those get wacked on a regular basis.

    Therefore I do not showcase the CJ merchants who show excessive reversal rates or products over 500.00. The exceptions are if they come here to ABW and face the music as they try and attract active affiliates. Time for CJ to clean house on the merchant abusers of those reversal figures.

    Webmaster Mike

    "Anyone can make a dollar, it is when you make sense that it starts to add up."...does your eBiz plan make sense?

  7. #7
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    quote:
    Well the merchant = Neptune Cigar Boutique



    Thanks for the heads up! I was thinking about promoting them!

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador ToughTurkey's Avatar
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    I do $1000's business each month with both onlinesports and mlb selling identical products. Online sports has a reversal rate of 67% - mlb's is... are you ready? 0% (zero). Same product, same traffic base.

    99% of the time the reason online sports gives is Invalid CC. It's total cr@p.

  9. #9
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    quote:
    Originally posted by SkinGarments.com:
    Below is my copy of the mail i send out to the merchant, If the reversal came in so quickly, then lets see the time frame they take to mail me back...



    Hello,

    I Had 2 transactions of $53.54 and $33.86 which were reversed by you...The reason stated was invalid CC

    But to be frank, I doubt this decision taken by you...As I Could understand one sale being an invalid CC, but not 2

    This i feel is unfair and I wish to get a explanation for the same...

    It''s a huge amount for which I sincerely feel deprived of...

    Looking forward to a appropriate response...

    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)


    Amit, if you are the Amit that I am thinking of "R", then I am confident that you have the way and the ability to get this handled.

    It is totally scandalous how CJ allows its merchants to screw us over without any fear of retribution.

    Again, if you are who I am thinking of, do something... not just for YOU, but for all of us.

    Maybe CJ needs some new and more responsive management.

  10. #10
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    Also, i went to your front page and right there in the middle of it was a CJ image that wasnt working

  11. #11
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    I am not going to back up CJ, BUT
    to post as absolute cheating before you even get info on what has really happened????????

    Count to 10, cool off, get the facts first.

    WW

    It was so cold last winter that I saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets.
    Give a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish he spends the day drinking beer in the boat.

  12. #12
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    quote:
    Originally posted by walleye warrior:
    I am not going to back up CJ, BUT
    to post _as absolute cheating_ before you even get info on what has really happened????????

    Count to 10, cool off, get the facts first.

    WW

    It was so cold last winter that I saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets.
    Give a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish he spends the day drinking beer in the boat.


    i think the cheating part refers to the fact that youll NEVER get the info.

  13. #13
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Amit,

    Now knowing the merchant and the products they are selling, I can see where the invalid CC may be a legitimate thing. First cigars would be at a higher risk for fraud than some other products. Also from their shipping and ordering information page:

    quote:
    Credit cards are processed via PCAuthorize. In order to prevent credit card fraud, we do not process automated address verification. Every order is verified and shipped by our staff. If shipping and billing addresses are different, we will confirm the authenticity of the order with the cardholder, both for the cardholder's and company's protection. Any order without a valid phone number for the billing party will not be processed. Do not use toll free, cell phone or pager numbers as directory assistance is also used to validate that the billing party exists at the address specified. While shopping at Neptunecigar.com, your IP address will be monitored. Any fraudulent credit card use attempt will be notified to IFCC/FBI.


    As you can see, they are not using an automatic processing, not even AVS. They probably found that AVS wasn't cutting it for the fraud protection. It isn't known as the most reliable system in the world, that's for sure. Looks like they have a problem with fraudulent charges and take more steps than most companies to protect themselves and their merchant account. It looks like the way they have it set up, anyone who places an order will get sent to the reciept page and they are capturing the order information only. So the CJ tracking would be generated. Then they manually process the orders, and any orders that don't meet their criteria get the boot.

    I guess the question would be is this a consistent pattern you see with them? Is this the first time something like this has happened. I bet they get a lot of kids trying to buy cigars.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  14. #14
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    Papasan - I am not sure of which amit you think I am, But I am Amit Lewis (Indian citizen) formerly known as TGO @ ABW, CJU and many other forums...

    Next UP - Yes, I am going to totally reconstruct skingarments.com so that link could stay there for a day or two...no probs [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    Now, I will handle this some other way, I am sure TODD will read this,

    TODD i hope you do discuss issues like this to your management, to your technical department and to all concerned...So as to improve your product.

    Clean up...

    Papasan - The other way to handle this will be known to all very soon...It is an alternative...


    WW - I did mention the facts above didn't I ?
    I am not blaming CJ for the cheating but NEPTUNE

    CJ on its part has gotta learn to clean up


    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)

    [This message was edited by SkinGarments.com on December 18, 2002 at 12:58 PM.]

  15. #15
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    BLHF - that's a great thing you've cleared up [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    However, I've had so many sales earlier which have been approved...

    This sale took place approx around 9 p.m USA time...

    The reversal came in at at around 5 a.m USA time

    so, even if what ur saying is correct, then can they verify with this info so quickly ?

    If yes - are they functioning at night to do the same ?

    There were other sales against which they haven't cared to take any action against, since weeks...

    Just when they see these 2 biggies, the reversal button is pressed ?

    1 sale could be understandable, but 2 sales with the same reason - it really doesnt make me feel comfortable


    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)

  16. #16
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    quote:
    Originally posted by BLFH:
    quote:
    >>> If <<< shipping and billing addresses are different, we will confirm the authenticity of the order with the cardholder Any order without a valid phone number for the billing party will not be processed. Do not use toll free, cell phone or pager numbers as directory assistance is also used to validate that the billing party exists at the address specified.


    I bet they get a lot of kids trying to buy cigars.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies


    this has NOTHING to do with an invalid credit card (twice)

    many many people have unlisted numbers, does this mean they can not purchase??

    so, they say they verify all orders, ok.
    but it says that is IF the billing and the shipping do not match.
    IF they are using NO AVS, then how do they even know?
    The fact that they dont spend 20 bucks a month for AVS bugs me.

  17. #17
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    quote:
    Originally posted by SkinGarments.com:
    BLHF - that's a great thing you've cleared up [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    However, I've had so many sales earlier which have been approved...

    This sale took place approx around 9 p.m USA time...

    The reversal came in at at around 5 a.m USA time

    so, even if what ur saying is correct, then can they verify with this info so quickly ?

    If yes - are they functioning at night to do the same ?

    There were other sales against which they haven't cared to take any action against, since weeks...

    Just when they see these 2 biggies, the reversal button is pressed ?

    1 sale could be understandable, but 2 sales with the same reason - it really doesnt make me feel comfortable


    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)


    so, are we to assume they are calling clients between 9PM and 5AM? doubtful.

    were these 2 sales identical in the amounts?

    have you contacted the merchant?

    try CALLING them at the number on their website!

    im dying to find out what they say!

  18. #18
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    Sale Accepted 97996938 ($535.40) ($53.54) Sale Life insurance Health Insurance quotes Neptune Cigar Boutique 1186863 98056909 NA 12/17/02 07:11:58 PM 12/18/02 04:17:27 AM

    Sale Accepted 97999275 ($338.55) ($33.86) Sale Life insurance Health Insurance quotes Neptune Cigar Boutique 1186863 98056910 NA 12/17/02 07:24:03 PM 12/18/02 04:17:45 AM

    There ya go PapaSan

    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)

  19. #19
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Amit,

    I don't know what the deal is with those 2 particular reversals. If that is an unusual occurrence with them, then it definitely is worth questioning the merchant about. All I was saying is that with the way their order processing is set up, I can see how a transaction could show on CJ tracking which is later reversed by them for an invalid CC, where this definitely should not be a reason (except in rare instances) for a merchant who is using real-time authorization. They are not using real-time authorization.

    @papasan

    Do you fully understand how credit card processing works? They did say that they do verify manually each order by their staff. Doesn't mean they listed every way in which they do this. From the whole tone of their paragraph regarding the processing of orders, it would seem that cc fraud is a major issue they have to deal with. The AVS system IS NOT a catch all for fraud, and if you do a bit of research on it and talk to merchants you will hear horror stories of it's short comings. It gives false results many times. It will issue a match when in fact there is not a match at times. The credit card holders information is not always accurate in their db and they are not the best in keeping it updated. And it doesn't match the entire address anyway. If a scammer has gotten the info off of a credit card bill, it is completely useless. They have the billing address.

    As far as Neptune's statement regarding the matching of billing and shipping addresses, that is a red flag for cc fraud. Some merchants won't even ship to a different address. Visa/MC strongly encourage businesses in high risk areas to consider this as an option. Even though they don't use AVS, they still have to provide the merchant bank with this information when submitting the transaction manually. You also have to provide a phone number for the customer. Throw away phone numbers (such as pagers and cell phones) are also a red flag for fraud.

    Notwithstanding what this particular merchant may or may not have done regarding the 2 reversals experienced by Amit (IOW assuming they are running their program above board), if they deal in an area high with cc fraud, the processing they are using would yield a much better chance in catching fraud. Why pay for the AVS (and it is more than $20/month since you typically get charged a per authorization fee by both the gateway and the merchant bank which can add up)when they will have to do the manual checking anyway?

    All I was pointing out, is the with this particular merchant's processing set-up, I can see where there is a possibilty for invalid cc being a legitimate reason. I can also see if they find out that some 18 y/o placed the order and they can't ship it because that's illegal, then them using that reason for the reversal.

    Doesn't mean that something wasn't amiss with those 2 particular reversals. The merchant should be given to opportunity to explain. If they don't then that says a lot right there.

    As far as their hours and the speed of the reversal? Can't say. Don't know where these guys are based out of. Many of the tobacco companies are located offshore.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  20. #20
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    I'm in India, If i place a call to USA with a issue like this...

    It would take 15mins to solve...and 15mins of talktime will kill me

    hehe

    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)

  21. #21
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    BLFH - excellent explanatory post in my opinion...

    It could be a real deal with them, or it could be cheating...

    The time frame is what really itches me...

    their address


    Neptunecigar.com
    Cigar Action Corp.
    7931 SW 152nd Terrace
    Miami, FL 33157


    Could anyone get me the difference in Miami time to CJ time...


    And yes the merchant must be allowed to have a detailed explanation for every reason - it must be followed as a compulsion

    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)

  22. #22
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Fl is EST, so they would be 3 hours ahead of CJ time.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  23. #23
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    quote:
    Originally posted by BLFH:
    @papasan

    Do you fully understand how credit card processing works? They did say that they do verify manually each order by their staff.


    Well, I accept credit cards online in a variety of ways. I also have a swipe/phone terminal that I use with my "real" business.

    Im not going to say IM an expert, but I do know how it has worked for us since 1997!

  24. #24
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    quote:
    Originally posted by SkinGarments.com:
    BLFH - excellent explanatory post in my opinion...

    It could be a real deal with them, or it could be cheating...

    The time frame is what really itches me...

    their address


    Neptunecigar.com
    Cigar Action Corp.
    7931 SW 152nd Terrace
    Miami, FL 33157


    Could anyone get me the difference in Miami time to CJ time...


    And yes the merchant must be allowed to have a detailed explanation for every reason - it must be followed as a compulsion

    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)


    lol, im sure mike will agree with me when i say

    "FLORIDA?? Scam Alley!"

    Yes, let us not forget, the mercahnts have to be held accountable to US if they want to partner with us. otherwise, i say they can stick with the mom and pops and geocities sites!

  25. #25
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    Wooh - 3 hrs ahead...

    So the first reversal came in at 04:17:27 cj time - that is around 1.17.27 a.m [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

    Wow Class merchants hehe

    Regards
    Amit

    It's about time I release version 1.0
    (Coming soon)

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