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  1. #1
    Influencer Marketing GravityFed's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Ready to Introduce AvantMetrics


    I would like to introduce AvantMetrics to ABW, and it's some big news for us!

    This technology has been in place and working for a while now, but it's time to announce and get people talking about it. To quote directly from the blog article we just put out..
    AvantMetrics is an online marketing analytics tool (and pixel container) that provides data on the entire customer click stream leading up to a sale, rather than details on the last click only.
    Would appreciate a discussion so please share any thoughts/opinions. AvantMetrics is our default network tracking now, and merchants can activate additional service levels for more detailed program analytics.

    AvantMetrics – Affiliate Marketing Analytics

    GM
    Last edited by GravityFed; June 22nd, 2011 at 02:07 PM. Reason: typo

  2. #2
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    Gary, have been looking at this and want to test with my AvantLink merchants. Waiting for a site resign project so we can get the tech time. Am happy to share any insight back here.

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  4. #3
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    There have been old discussions on this and this part bothers me:

    "AvantMetrics can help you de-duplicate between marketing channels or split commissions with intelligent, rule based shared attribution functionality."

    If that's implemented with all or some of your merchants? I would like a list so I know who to remove.

    Old thread from 2007 on splitting commissions - http://www.abestweb.com/forums/midni...ale-90416.html

    I can understand how merchants would like it but I doubt affiliates would go for that if they knew. I think a poll would back that up.
    Last edited by Trust; June 29th, 2011 at 03:57 PM.

  5. #4
    Influencer Marketing GravityFed's Avatar
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    Hi Trust some merchants are doing this already, as well as indiscriminately removing coupon sites based on assumptions. Better they have all the data than to keep making uneducated guesses and bad decisions.

  6. #5
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    "Hi Trust some merchants are doing this already"

    Is there a list somewhere? Because when I sign up with merchants, I can't do some floating payout, I want to know exactly what I get paid for a sale.

  7. #6
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    "Better they have all the data than to keep making uneducated guesses and bad decisions."

    That's kind of what you're asking your affiliates to do then. Because merchants aren't going to let me see the backend and I now have to guess what I might get for a sale, since it now can be split up. I don't know any reasonable person that would work like that. You get a sale, well you might get 5% or 3.5% or 8%, who knows.

  8. #7
    Influencer Marketing GravityFed's Avatar
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    You won't have to guess. Any attribution rules will be listed in the merchants terms.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary-AvantLink View Post
    You won't have to guess. Any attribution rules will be listed in the merchants terms.
    Not following, what does that mean exactly? Is there a merchant that is doing this already where we can see some example terms. Is it setup something like:

    Commission - 2% - 8% ? Some floating payout? Or let me know some merchants doing this so I can go checkout the terms, see how they have it setup.

    The ones I've checked so far are solid, look like:

    Action Commission: 10.00%
    Last edited by Trust; June 29th, 2011 at 04:03 PM.

  10. #9
    Influencer Marketing GravityFed's Avatar
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    Trust, we're starting to get merchants set-up now. We just announced this new platform, and there is a three month trial for any merchant on our network. It will take a bit of time for them to implement.

    As far as how to know what's being paid out.. In the drill-down (magnifying glass link) for the "Sales/Commissions (Detail)" report we will be showing an additional link for "Modified / Shared Attribution". That link brings Affiliate to a page that lists more clearly what percentage share they received.

  11. #10
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    "As far as how to know what's being paid out.. In the drill-down (magnifying glass link) for the "Sales/Commissions (Detail)" report we will be showing an additional link for "Modified / Shared Attribution". That link brings Affiliate to a page that lists more clearly what percentage share they received. "

    The problem with that, which was pointed out in that thread from 2007 and other discussions on this issue, that information might be there, but after the fact, the sale.

    Gary, look at it from an affiliate perspective. Do you really think affiliates are going to like this? I would seriously poll this before it goes any further. I think it would be a very lopsided poll. And I really don't think most merchants would even do this, so I don't know how big a problem this will become. But for those that take the leap, hopefully it's very transparent because I won't join one merchant with such a setup and pull any I might have that goes this direction. It's just not affiliate friendly.

  12. #11
    Influencer Marketing GravityFed's Avatar
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    We are seeing strong interest in the free trial, so I do think this type of click stream intelligence/transparency is in demand.. Like I said in the other thread, we have put a lot of thought into this.

    We do think Affiliates are going to like it when the data attribution logic option keeps a whole group of Affiliates from being kicked out of a program all together based on assumptions.

    Trust, I think you may have a coupon site. Have you not been removed from programs recently just b/c they are not working with any coupon sites any longer? Why do you think that's the case? Would you rather get removed from a program altogether, or would you rather receive 50% commission in certain cases.

    Also, we're not pushing attribution we just want to give merchants alternatives when they are considering things like kicking out all coupon Affiliates.

  13. #12
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    I have a coupon site but also more product sites, niche sites etc, once I started making them with WP.

    I'd rather get removed than not know beforehand what I'm getting paid. I just don't think it's a good way to operate. Knowing what you're going to get paid, after the fact. But I really don't think most merchants would even go this way, so it might not even be that big of an issue. The ones that do, I think they'll find affiliates leaving their program. Again, I understand why merchants would like this but poll it with the affiliates here.

    If it happens to be a merchant that tries this with your network and they happen to have a program elsewhere, you also might be pushing affiliates over to those networks, where they know what they're going to get paid.

  14. #13
    Influencer Marketing GravityFed's Avatar
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    I'd rather get removed than not know beforehand what I'm getting paid.
    That is your opinion and I respect it. But there are also Affiliates I have talked to that only want to work with merchants if they are using AvantMetrics.

  15. #14
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    Also something that just came to mind, not sure how you have it setup.

    Let's say an affiliate gets a sale and it shows up with a commission of $25 for the affiliate. Is the splitting of commission showing up pretty instantaneously, already factored it when you first post the sale or will it be a case where it happens later?

    Meaning, let's say somebody gets a bunch of sales for a merchant and sees the initial amount. Then days later they login and see that amount reduced?

  16. #15
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    "But there are also Affiliates I have talked to that only want to work with merchants if they are using AvantMetrics."

    No offence but I'm not really buying that. Well you might have a found a few, so I take that back. But I'm talking more in general. That kind of thing is always where nobody can see it. Why not have a poll about it here? Out in the open, so there is no question how affiliates feel about it? Try to get the greatest amount of input possible. Based on past discussions about this kind of thing, it went the way I feel about it. From that thread I linked too, Michael sums it up nicely:

    "My main aversion to splitting commissions is that I know the merchants will only be interested in "splitting" my commission. It's highly unlikely that they'll be willing to split the profit from their PPC, newsletters, and other traffic sources, when an affiliate had a part in the sale.

    The last (legitimate) click should almost always get credit for the sale."
    Last edited by Trust; June 29th, 2011 at 05:48 PM.

  17. #16
    Influencer Marketing GravityFed's Avatar
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    In terms of sale reporting there is a 5-10 minute delay with ours. Merchants aren't batching us sale records days later (although there are a couple of exceptions).

    Trust, a lot has changed since 2007. Affiliates weren't being removed from programs arbitrarily based on assumptions, after producing 100s of thousands in revenue for a store.

    As far as the quote from Michael (from 2007), we have seen that lots of larger stores already cancel an Affiliate commission... if one of their internal channels trumps the cookie.

    AvantMetrics gives merchants options on how to handle those situations, and I believe the quality merchants (ones that qualify for our network) would be fair about it.
    Last edited by GravityFed; June 29th, 2011 at 08:13 PM. Reason: Bolded AvantMetrics Links

  18. #17
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    Hi Gary,

    I really congratulate you for this new system. There is so much unethical things are happening in the affiliate marketing world which are not detected or handled because of the lack of technology.

    Unethical coupon affiliates who enter during the checkout stage and claiming commission are a big problem. They are simply exploiting the "last cookie" rule and laughing at the face of another hard working affiliate and the merchant.

    I truly believe that this AvantMetrics will be a breakthrough

    Hi Trust,

    I really respect your participation and experience in this forum but in this particular case, I have a different opinion.

    I don't think that you can hold ethics 100% as long as you are a "coupon affiliate". What ever you have said so far is the opinion of a "coupon affiliate" (minority) whose business model is entirely different from a non-coupon affiliate(majority)

    non coupon affiliates are always afraid of coupon affiliates
    coupon affiliates are always afraid of new technology that track them

    I have no respect towards coupon affiliates who enter the last minute of a checkout and do many tricky things to execute their affiliate link.

    I wonder why merchants and affiliates networks are not very serious about this issue. The main reason I joined CSN stores is because they track every affiliate and carefully credit the non-coupon affiliate.

    99% of the coupon affiliate sites wouldn't have existed if "first cookie" rule was the standard but because of certain other problems "last cookie" rule is the industry standard.

    I really respect the coupon sites that give value and provide latest coupon codes.

    I wish all merchants consider this issue seriously and credit the "hard working" affiliate carefully.

  19. #18
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    "99% of the coupon affiliate sites wouldn't have existed if "first cookie" rule was the standard but because of certain other problems "last cookie" rule is the industry standard."

    Well, that's nonsense and tells me a lot. First cookie could be a problem as well. Very easy to front load cookies. Many coupon sites are where people start and finish their shopping to merchants.

    "I truly believe that this AvantMetrics will be a breakthrough"

    It'll pretty much be not used for reasons mentioned above.

    "What ever you have said so far is the opinion of a "coupon affiliate" (minority) whose business model is entirely different from a non-coupon affiliate(majority)"

    False. It's an opinion shared not only by coupon affiliates but by the majority because the non coupon affiliates would get their commissions sliced and diced as well.

    "I wonder why merchants and affiliates networks are not very serious about this issue."

    You mean they're not serious because they don't use such a system? It means they're smart because they know it would be pretty much the death of a merchant's affiliate program. It's why it's only an option at Avantlink, not standard for the network and every merchant in the network.

    Again, start a poll on this, no need to guess on this issue. It's why it's pretty rare to find merchants using such a program.
    Last edited by Trust; July 18th, 2011 at 05:10 AM.

  20. #19
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    Many coupon sites are where people start and finish their shopping to merchants.

    I have nothing against those coupon affiliate sites. Such affiliates need not to worry about this new technology. They get full commission.

    I'm against those coupon sites that come only during the checkout process and drop their cookie.

    Suppose an affiliate is spending money and drive traffic using PPC. He writes a good review and the prospect is ready to buy. The prospect see a coupon code field at the checkout page and naturally search for it : "merchant name+coupon code" in search engine. A coupon code site come and the prospect click on the affiliate link. Now his cookie is the last one. The checkout is now complete.

    Remember this coupon site got an opportunity to involve in this purchase only because of the coupon code field at the checkout.

    Hi Trust,

    I have only one question

    Who deserve the commission ?

  21. #20
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    That scenario has been gone over to death, the last click deserves it because they closed the sale, it's who closes. If you're working with a merchant that has a coupon code box and a coupon, you should list it.

    Your other post mentioned CSN, I remember a thread on that, do you think a lot of merchants are headed in this direction - http://www.abestweb.com/forums/901535-post34.html

    15 different scenarios. Are affiliates supposed to trust a merchant that they'll split it up right? Are they going to be ok with not knowing exactly what they're going to get paid for each sale? There is already a big leap of trust in this business since it happens online and affiliates can't see what's happening on the merchant side, this adds another layer on top of that.

    I said before I understand the concept behind this and why merchants would like it but I think it just falls apart with affiliates, no matter how great a merchant or network thinks this is.

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  23. #21
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    "the last click deserves it because they closed the sale, it's who closes."

    It is not closing it is stealing. If a non-coupon affiliate cookie was active until the last moment, then it is stealing and unethical.

    "Your other post mentioned CSN, I remember a thread on that, do you think a lot of merchants are headed in this direction"

    CSN stores and their affiliate program are growing every year. They are among the Top 100 internet retailers in US and Canada(actually #51)

    2010 growth : 51.4%

    The Top 500 List - Internet Retailer

    Here is an old detailed discussion regarding this issue

    http://www.abestweb.com/forums/csn-s...-114265-2.html

    There was a little confusion at first to understand it, but then everything was fine.

    They are one of the few merchants who really understood the real problem.

    "15 different scenarios. Are affiliates supposed to trust a merchant that they'll split it up right?"

    Here is some responses from the above thread

    This is a very innovative approach to what affiliates like me (non-coupon sites) deem to be a problem.

    Rhea

    I had some initial concerns about CSN's solution, but after researching it more completely, I really like it. I don't suggest it for other merchants, though, because it's rather complicated and I think the odds of most merchants being able to properly implement it is pretty slim. It also involves quite a bit of manual work on their end.

    It's obvious that a great amount of understanding and concern for affiliates (both coupon and non-coupon) has gone into this policy.


    Michael Coley

    "Seems very fair. I will make sure I include CSN stores in my to do list. "

    Julian

    "I think this is a very fair policy to protect non-coupon sites. "

    Waybar


    You were the only one with little disappointment.

    "Are they going to be ok with not knowing exactly what they're going to get paid for each sale?"

    There is no confusion for the non-coupon affiliate. They get full commission. Only the coupon affiliates are confused

    Let me clear my point. Suppose I am a merchant. This is what I do

    1) Carefully monitor the channels from the affiliate clicks come
    2) Coupon sites that come during the checkout stage are considered "special"
    3) Protect the non-coupon affiliate from the last time coupon affiliate
    4) Give the coupon affiliate a small commission only if his coupon code works(Otherwise he adds no value to that purchase. He neither drive traffic nor his coupon works . All he does is to cleverly put his cookie at the end)

    I have no problem if I loose some affiliates because of these rules. They have no intention to add any value to my affiliate program. All they want is to make some quick bucks by ranking high for the term "merchant+coupon" in the search engines.

    There are even courses that teach people how to do it.

    Driving traffic and adding value by providing good content are the most important steps in affiliate marketing. Providing a coupon comes last.

    I wish more affiliate networks and merchants will come up with new systems to protect the "deserving affiliates" rather than following some "blind rules".

    Note: Please note that through out this thread I am talking about coupon sites that enter during the checkout stage. If some one reach a coupon site through another channel, click on the affiliate link, reach the merchant site, then go to the checkout page, I have no problem.

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