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  1. #1
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    http://www.dmnews.com/cgi-bin/artpre...ticle_id=30859

    Even considering the source of the article......

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The New York company yesterday released a study of its privacy policy by former Microsoft chief privacy officer Richard Purcell. The report backs WhenU's assertion that its software, which is used to target ads to users based on their Internet behavior, does not collect or transmit personal information. It also concluded WhenU's software is easy to remove. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>WhenU also expects to announce today that Aluria Software, an anti-spyware software maker that powers AOL's anti-spyware product, has certified WhenU's software as "spyware safe." Aluria's program vets Web sites to ensure that they do not engage in spyware tactics, including the tracking of Internet behavior without authorization. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    First, illustrates very clearly why it is important to use the appropriate terminology when discussing these applications and why we have issues with them.

    Second, illustrates very clearly the point much of what is happening regarding any type of regulation of the applications is focused on the true spyware concerns and not the adware/commerce aspects which is what is kicking our butt.

    Third, WhenU isn't the only application that is doing a pretty damn good job of having their software come off as legitimate which is going to kick aff's butts in a big bad way.

    Fourth, does anyone see the connection of the importance of this article and a 9 page thread from yesterday???

    And fifth...we need to seriously wake up and smell the coffee!

  2. #2
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    This is exactly what i have been harping on, this distinction of nothing. And good to see our old friends aluria being scummier than ever.

    Doesn't aluria have to phone home to get what it should pop on the site?

    Chet

  3. #3
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    Affiliate Marketing for many of the domain bound affiliates is and has been doomed.

    I opened a thread a while back about AOL promoting UPromise to all of their members which only drew a couple of comments.

    Face it, you're going to have a hard time competing against cash back incentives not only with online purchases but at the grocery store and gas statiions too. How many AOL members exist and how far does their conversation reach?

    180 solutions gets venture capital and you can be sure that gator/claria and others will be getting more funds as well. CJ states they are in compliance "even though they facilitate affiliates being able to be out of compliance" and linkshare while they did get exclusions to "some of their merchants" (only the ones that participate with them.... caugh caugh) - continue to do business with them as well. Wait a minute.... does that mean the only way to protect my linkshare merchant domain against interference is "TO PARTNER WITH THEM"? Caugh Caugh - Makes perfect sense to me.

    Now lets fast forward to AFP - where the likes of all TopMoxie apps will be validated as being in compliance "so to speak" which will open the marketing door to many merchants that currently don't do business with them. Woo-hoooooooooooo!

    Affiliates can still build specialy sites and other great sites that gets traffic and provide great marketing for merchants but the fact is that - more and more of our sales are being snapped up by domainless applications that reside on the consumers computer or sits insides a merchants own site once they hit the merchants domain.

    A domain bound affiliate can not effectively compete with an application that resides on a users computer and constantly reminds them to click ok or whatever the case may be. Likewise, it's pretty hard to compete with live help on a merchants site that overwrites cookies too.

    Geeez - we used to just worry about leaks from 1-800 numbers and a few parasites - now..... that list of concerns has grown substantially.
    We can force change? "Change is never forced" and that doesn't matter if you speak your case matter of factly or raise holy hell and throw a tandrum!

    Looking back at the history of ABW, I recall and participated in many "very cival conversations" regarding issue negatively effecting this industry and features we'd like to see networks address - those issues still exist, have only grown in scope and many of the requests from affiliates have fallen on deaf ears. ** edited to add ** The longer the requests have been ingnored and spinned by networks looking to line their pockets with cash at our and consumers expense, the less civil discusions have become!

    Apps getting legitimacy? You can expect much more of it in the future and that my friends will certainly not improve your conversion rates or your ability to draw traffic.

    Add in search engines more and more filtering affiliate sites and that "if desktop apps" are really legitimized, what SE in their right mind would take the time to scan and provide ranking for affiliate based sites?

    Worried? IMO most here should be. With that said, an inner circle (thoughts of a dart board or archery target come to mind) my be nice but the bullseye will still only amount to bullshoot - no matter how you say it.

    BTW: My name is Andy .

  4. #4
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now lets fast forward to AFP - where the likes of all TopMoxie apps will be validated as being in compliance "so to speak" which will open the marketing door to many merchants that currently don't do business with them. Woo-hoooooooooooo! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Completely false representation.

  5. #5
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    "Completely false representation. "

    A couple of posts that certainly indicate as much come to mind but curiously, search doesn't return a single instance of you mentioning top moxie, topmoxie or even ebates.

  6. #6
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    "Affiliate Marketing for many of the domain bound affiliates is and has been doomed."

    And there it is. Welcome back. Affiliate marketing is dying.

    Keep forgetting about the enduser. They don't like pop advertising. Once they find out how to remove it, they do. We should teach them how, then no parasite problem. So in the future i see things changing for the better.

  7. #7
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    I'll explain the AFP thing again:

    a) AFP WILL NOT be certifying/accrediting/etc any software application and/or affiliate.
    b) AFP WILL be testing for specific behaviors and reporting whether or not those behaviors are present.
    c) For software apps in particular, there are 20 some odd specific behaviors being tested for. Those behaviors are tested for each and every application. If the behavior is present on testing, it's a yes. If the behvior is not present on testing it's a no.
    d) AFP WILL NOT be attaching any subjective criteria to the test results.
    e) AFP will be testing for specific behavior and reporting if they are present or not. There will be no accreditation or cerftification attached to those test results.

    I have said publicly in the past (probably what you were looking for and I'm not sure why it wouldn't come up in a search for you), that all of all the gobs (ok..I probably didn't actually say gobs) of applications now out there and most certainly out of the ones that are talked about here on ABW, the TopMoxie apps in general are most behaved. That's a comparative thing..looking at them along side apps such as 180, BargainBuddy, etc. I've also said they are closest (looking at the same apps most commonly talked about here on ABW) to being 'compliant' by the Networks standards. Saying "close to" and "is" are not the same thing. That is the truth for what I am seeing in testing.

    Those comments have nothing to do with the testing of AFP, since I'm not endorsing/certifying/etc applications. Nor are the behaviors I am testing for necessarily what the various Networks label as compliant. If I test a topmoxie app (pick an app any app) for AFP and on testing they are not redirecting on affiliate clickthroughs they will get a "No" for that behavior. Because...well...the behavior didn't happen. If I get an auto redirect with auto cookie setting on testing with them when I do a direct type in to the Merchants site they will get a "Yes" for that behavior. Again because that is what happened with testing. Etc, etc for all 20 something behaviors I'm testing for.

    If I test your software application, I'll report all those Yes and No's for what happened in testing (because of the wording of the behavior test a yes is what you hope to see or a no is).

    Merchants will have a comprehensive snapshot of exactly how an application is really behaving to make on informed decision. Hopefully they would see they value add of your software over others. That's a thought process they need to reach on their own however from having objective data.

    Oh and did I mention that AFP isn't certifying any applications?

    BTW: My name is Kellie (and I really do want to see things improve in this Industry)

  8. #8
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    I say tomatoe - you say potatoe?

    Most affiliates here are pretty knowledgable and can see the difference between:

    "Affiliate Marketing for many of the domain bound affiliates is and has been doomed."

    vs what you infer I said: "Affiliate marketing is dying."

    They are hardly the same the thing and so far apart it aint even funny. I think most will recognize that.

  9. #9
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    Actually you're wrong, buy a dictionary. Doomed can be many things, can be dying.

    noun
    1 doomed, lost
    people who are destined to die soon; "the agony of the doomed was in his voice"
    adjective
    1 doomed
    marked for certain death; "the black spot told the old sailor he was doomed"

    Nevertheless, if my site visitors computers are clean, i don't have a parasite problem do i?

  10. #10
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    Kellie,

    You are still my favorite ABW'er. I think as I have said before that there is both good and bad from the service you will be providing.

    OK, I stand corrected as far as "you saying" an app "is" or "is not" in compliance but the end result is still basically the same - whatever you call it.

    The data can and will be used as a basis to determine if a merchant wants to do business with a parasite based on certain criteria and there is a strong likeilyhood IMO that based on some like "TopMoxie apps in general are most behaved" will likely yield good results on your criteria that may legitimize them much more than lets say.... some made by some of our devoted parasite haters.

    The potential for the apps listed in the parasite section to "effively be legitimized" from the data you will provide is a real threat to affiliates in general IMO. I certainly know you wouldn't limit your results to listing apps that "were just using questionable services" so there is the distinct possibility that TopMoxie will fair well in the results which could lead to more merchants doing business with them which has a potential to further drain conversion rates for domain only affiliates.

    My statement :
    where the likes of all TopMoxie apps will be validated as being in compliance "so to speak"
    should probably have been clearer and for that - I'll apologize and hope this will clear things up.

    The end result will be that apps are and will continue to find more and more ways to be legitimized and that IMO will not increase an ** edited to add domain bound ** affilaites conversion rates at all - quite contrary and the stakes at risk - "aint no small tomatoes"... or should I let Trust say Potatoes?

    ** Edited to add - BTW - My name is Andy **

  11. #11
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    This business is getting more like the olympics
    more and more cheats trying to beat the system

    Also, how or who do we believe when they tell us programs are legit?

  12. #12
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    What Trust said; "Doomed" = "is going to die!"

    And "is going to die" = "is dying."

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> noun
    1 doomed, lost
    people who are destined to die soon; "the agony of the doomed was in his voice"
    adjective
    1 doomed
    marked for certain death; "the black spot told the old sailor he was doomed"
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeppers...

    So if that's not what you meant, ANDY ( ) then just what DO you mean?
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  13. #13
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Ok..now that I've got you saying what you mean....

    I'm going to limit this to TopMoxie since it's the one you originally brought up by name and there's just so many dang apps now (unfortunately).

    I get your point. But I want you to think about a couple of things here. Again, this is specific to TopMoxie (ie there are a whole lot of possibilities here because of the number of apps and the range of behaviors).

    First is the apps that are gaining more of a legit status how is this happening? Is this legit status based off of factual information? Or is it based primarily off of how good the company is with their PR and from the Merchant's point of view and decision making, what they are being told by their respective Network when they ask?

    For TopMoxie products, to a large degree (not completely and of course lets not forget those timely glitches) they are not redirecting on affiliate links. And yes, that is a good thing for affs. Completely satisfactory to affs? No. Because not 100% do they not redirect (ie another aff doesn't use afsrc=1...and for the record I've always felt that one blowed for compliance), because of the past history of glitches and just past history in general. The fact that they aren't redirecting off aff links to a large extent is due in a large part to the Nov 7th stuff and COC/Addendum. And that IS a good thing for affs (such as it is) over what those apps did in the past. However, when questioned by a Merchant, what is a Network going to say? "No [insert TopMoxie aff name here] is NOT diverting one affiliate's traffic to theirs." And that statement IS true for the most part. And the Merchant says..oh ok..just a whinny aff upset they aren't making as much. These guys are compliant.

    But you and I both know that the way these apps function at present, they have to redirect off of something. So what's left when aff traffic is removed? You and I both know that answer also.

    So now flash forward to AFP results. So the Merchant sees aff traffic not redirected (gels with what they've been being told by the app company and their Network) but then sees THEIR traffic is.

    So my question is...with the Merchant knowing the truth, did the application just become more legit or less legit in the eyes of the Merchant?

    I'll say this..aside from those (again unfortuantely) far and few AM's/Merchants who care about ethics, from a financial perspective it's the same bottom line no matter what aff they are paying, but it suddenly turns into a horse of a different color when it's their traffic/money. Just reality. And I've had more than one Merchant flat out tell me that.

    IMO I'm a strong believer in the Truth wins out.

    Of course there are the situations where whoever is in direct control of the affiliate program has their own financial gains in this nonsense happening and welcomes and even encourages such going ons. But seriously, if that is the case is what I'm reporting mattering on that one? I bet they are pretty much signed up with all these guys already.

    And for affs I will be providing links to these apps merchant's lists when available like I already do on AFP. If affs want to know that info in making Merchant partnership decisions, they can.

    Food for thought.........

  14. #14
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yeppers...

    So if that's not what you meant, ANDY ( ) then just what DO you mean? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    LOL - you guys crack me up. In case you didnt notice - there is one key component missing between my statement and good old trustys" The key word is "domain bound".

    Affiliate marketing will thrive and surely will not die. Thats not to say that many domian bound affiliates getting raped and pillaged from their own marketing wont continue to lose income and income oportunities from the likes of UPromise, Ebates and a host of other application based parasites sitting on a consumers machine.

    My "clearly defined statements" LOL hardley ever said "Affiliate marketing is dying".

    There is a huge difference and I'm amazed that folks like you or trusty couldnt see past that that difference unless you just wanted to throw in some senseless jabs. Hey - I've been wrong before and known to throw a few jabs myself.

    Rock on and

    BTW: My name is Andy

  15. #15
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    You forgot PPC, bunch of pillagers.

    "UPromise, Ebates and a host of other application based parasites sitting on a consumers machine."

    "Nevertheless, if my site visitors computers are clean, i don't have a parasite problem do i?"

    It'll be ok Poon, keep building. And start educating your site visitors whenver possible.

    Clean computers = no parasite problem.

  16. #16
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    Naw Trust..Poon is taking a whole different approach to it. But hey, diversification is a good thing. More than one way to skin a cat.

  17. #17
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    Granted Trusty - Consumer education is a key component (just as is affiliate education). I haven't skipped here nor...... will I skip over there either.

    Waiting on parasites to educate consumers how they steal money from other websites isn't a good idea just as waiting on networks to educate affiliates or consumers about parasites while they line their p0ockets with the profits isn;t probably a good idea either. I think we finally came to something we completely agree on - but wait. Maybe you'll find something to disagree on our agreement of this topic?

    BTW: My name is Andy

  18. #18
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    I disagree that'll we disagree on this topic. We agree on it.

  19. #19
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    OMG - I'm in shock LOL.

  20. #20
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    Who is paying for the testing?

    And are they in compliance if they do not redirect any aff links, or only if they don't redirect aff links when afsrc=1 is used?

  21. #21
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    No one yet since it hasn't gone live. Who do you think should pay for it?

    Whether or not that is compliant can vary between Network and Merchant.

  22. #22
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    Truth be told a few incent DUPERs, who stunk up this industry since inception, sat down with network management and devise a way to monitize/cookie every route to a merchants site on the back of a cocktail napkin.

    The only change, since they shook hands and pledged secrecy to whack the Merchants Ad budgets and hijack sales from domain bound affiliates, was some who recognize "afsrc=1" and delay popping up on that one referral session only. No BHO's, not openly OUTED here, have to pass that one smell test till they're caught. There are hundreds of those. Add in the BHO's like 180Solutions and the rogues like Gator, who hire out their theftwarez train via keywords and target lists to any sleezeballs affiliate not content with just SE spamming and cookie stuffing and you'll find new Titanium award winners.

    God Ms.B, you do have a great e-business model to keep you busy. I even suggested directly to TigerDirect and Overstock management they hire you ASAP.

    Poon is right, years ago the networks had a choice after the .com bombs burst network trust. Either require value in a click from a consumers viewpoint of every affiliate ...or marginalize reliance on domain referral traffic and turn to the domainless darkside to whack all traffic sources. Cookie stuffers are just the dregs of this industry employing the "poormans BHO" tactic and yelling it's a defensive move.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

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