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  1. #1
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    Shooting prompts call to curb online ammo sales
    The shooting hit close to home as I have family in that area. This article talks about gun and ammo sales but I haven't seen or heard that James Holmes bought either online. I did hear that he was denied membership to a local gun club and he bought many accessories through their web site.

    The Internet’s 24-hour shopping mall is now under scrutiny for the role it played in providing the suspect in the Colorado theater shooting access to bulk ammunition with little state, federal or human oversight.

    While the national debate over gun control seems permanently stalled, the discussion over online sales of guns, bullets and other equipment could be revived by the Colorado shooting that left 12 dead and 58 injured.

    Private gun sales, which often take place on the Internet, account for more than 40 percent of U.S. gun sales, according to a 2011 report by the office of the New York City mayor. The report found that in the past 15 years a significant share of gun sales has moved online.

    At various stores online, and apparently without raising an eyebrow or a red flag, the suspect, James Holmes, was able to buy 3,000 rounds for an assault rifle, 3,000 rounds for Glock handguns and another 300 shotgun shells, according to The Wall Street Journal.

    He also bought special equipment — a high capacity “drum magazine” — allowing him to hold 100 rounds. He had the ability to fire 50 or 60 rounds per minute, according to The New York Times.

    That drum purchase would have been restricted by the Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device Act, federal legislation that has been stalled in the House. The bill, proposed by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), whose husband was killed in a mass shooting on a commuter train in 1993, would put a ban on sales of magazines holding over 10 rounds.

    “This needs to be a wakeup call,” she told constituents in Long Island over the weekend.

    The National Rifle Association said in a statement that the group “believes that now is the time for families to grieve and for the community to heal. There will be an appropriate time down the road to engage in political and policy discussions.”

    But the Internet may represent a new opening for gun control advocates, particularly when it comes to ammunition. There’s a patchwork of state weapons laws, with online retailers having to abide by the legislation where the buyer is physically located. Many online platforms, such as eBay and Craigslist, have prohibited weapons sales. Recently, Google announced it was banning gun and ammo sales on its shopping site.

    Still, there are a vast number of private sellers who have moved on to the Internet.

    “There are so few laws regulating ammunition that it may as well be the Wild West on the Internet,” said Laura Cutilletta, senior staff attorney at Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. “The fact that it is removed and anonymous makes it easier for someone to amass large amounts of ammunition or someone who is not who he says he is.”

    The online marketplace makes the job of enforcement tougher, particularly when it comes to private sellers of arms, gun control advocates say.

    An investigation by New York City uncovered thousands of firearms for sale on Craigslist and compared the site to eBay where none were for sale. The report called for tougher self-policing protocols for websites where arms are sold.

    But there is a hole in current law affecting online sales of ammunition created during the era of mail order sales, say gun control advocates. Before 1986, “the Colorado suspect could not have gone on the Internet and bought massive volumes of ammunition and had it been delivered to his apartment,” said Kristen Rand, legislative director at The Violence Policy Center.

    The gun that shot President John Kennedy in 1963 was bought through the mail. That event led to the 1968 Gun Control Act outlawing interstate sales of guns and ammunition to unlicensed people, effectively shutting down the weapons and ammunition mail order business. That law was repealed in 1986 by the Fire Arms, Fire Owners’ Protection Act, also known as McClure-Volkmer, which among other things, deregulated ammunition sales and effectively opened up ammunition sales again.

    Skip ahead more than 20 years to the online retail market. “No one could have foreseen this huge Internet market,” said Rand. “We need to reinstate some pre-existing law that clearly created a cascade of unforeseen consequences because of the rise of the Internet.”

    Some states such as California and Massachusetts have regulated ammunition sales. A 2009 California law requires online handgun ammunitions sales to be competed through a face-to-face transaction with a licensed ammunition vendor.

    Rand recommends that lawmakers consider instituting regulations requiring record keeping of ammunition sales and some kind of reporting to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives if a large amount ammunition is purchased. “It seems like a no brainer,” she said.

    This article first appeared on POLITICO Pro at 3:18 p.m. on July 23, 2012.

  2. #2
    ...and a Pirate's heart. Convergence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick View Post
    This article talks about gun and ammo sales but I haven't seen or heard that James Holmes bought either online.
    It has been reported that he purchased the ammo online...
    Salty kisses, Sandy toes, and a Pirate's heart...

  3. #3
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    That he purchased via a shopping cart? I thought ammo was restricted as gun are from being able to purchase online. I am excluding Craig's List or local classified where guns/ammo can be advertised but you would purchase in person as a personal sale. I am sure this is abused and haven't made a gun purchase for 20 years which was a personal sale not through a gun store.

  4. #4
    Super Dawg Member Phil Kaufman aka AffiliateHound's Avatar
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    NRA Reaps Profits From the Internet Ammo Sales It Made Possible:
    Aurora mass shooter James Holmes' ability to reportedly purchase more than six thousand rounds of ammunition online without any recordkeeping is the direct result of Congressional passage of the National Rifle Association's flagship bill of the 1980s: the Firearms Owners' Protection Act.

    Commonly known as "McClure-Volkmer" for its Senate and House sponsors--Senator James McClure and Representative (and long-time NRA board member) Harold Volkmer (both now deceased)--the bill was signed into law by President Ronald Reagan in 1986.

    Prior to passage of McClure-Volkmer, interstate ammunition sales by common carrier to private individuals were banned and records were maintained of ammunition sales. McClure-Volkmer ended these limited controls--and opened up a new financial funding stream for the NRA.

    Today the NRA receives millions of dollars from online sales of ammunition, high-capacity ammunition magazines, and other accessories through the Round-Up Program, created by top NRA benefactor Larry Potterfield. Potterfield is founder and head of MidwayUSA, which claims to stock "[j]ust about everything for shooting, reloading, gunsmithing and hunting," including ammunition and high-capacity ammunition magazines. The Round-Up Program encourages buyers to "round-up" their purchase to the nearest dollar with the difference going to the NRA.
    No lawmaker will risk incurring the wrath of the NRA to even attempt to change this.
    Since June 10, 2012 a vegan aarf but still writing the Hound Dawg Sports Blog
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  5. #5
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    No lawmaker will risk incurring the wrath of the NRA to even attempt to change this.
    That remains to be seen. I expect to see heated discussion especially with the November elections.

  6. #6
    ...and a Pirate's heart. Convergence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick View Post
    That remains to be seen. I expect to see heated discussion especially with the November elections.
    That won't be touched with a ten-foot pole anywhere NEAR the elections. Our current President spoke of gun control before the last election - has not even come close to talking about it since.

    AH is correct:
    No lawmaker will risk incurring the wrath of the NRA to even attempt to change this.
    Salty kisses, Sandy toes, and a Pirate's heart...

  7. #7
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    I'll sit on this for now and appreciate the feedback.

  8. #8
    Super Dawg Member Phil Kaufman aka AffiliateHound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convergence View Post
    That won't be touched with a ten-foot pole anywhere NEAR the elections.
    Not just near elections, but anytime. When no reform of any kind - even restricting sales of 33-round clips - could even be discussed following the Jan, 2011 Tucson shooting, I knew then that no regulations, record-keeping or restrictions could ever be possible.
    Since June 10, 2012 a vegan aarf but still writing the Hound Dawg Sports Blog
    "If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?" -John Wooden;
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  9. #9
    ...and a Pirate's heart. Convergence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffiliateHound View Post
    Not just near elections, but anytime. When no reform of any kind - even restricting sales of 33-round clips - could even be discussed following the Jan, 2011 Tucson shooting, I knew then that no regulations, record-keeping or restrictions could ever be possible.
    My response was in reply to Chuck's statement:

    That remains to be seen. I expect to see heated discussion especially with the November elections.
    My second part I think quantified your statement above:

    Our current President spoke of gun control before the last election - has not even come close to talking about it since.
    Salty kisses, Sandy toes, and a Pirate's heart...

  10. #10
    ABW Ambassador Georgie Peri's Avatar
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    OpA! Giasou Ti kanies!

  11. #11
    ...and a Pirate's heart. Convergence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Georgie Peri View Post
    Hyperbole, IMhO...
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  12. #12
    What's the word? Rhia7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick View Post
    The shooting hit close to home as I have family in that area. This article talks about gun and ammo sales but I haven't seen or heard that James Holmes bought either online. I did hear that he was denied membership to a local gun club and he bought many accessories through their web site.
    I hope that your family are okay, Chuck. Even being close in terms of geography can take a psychological toll.
    I found an interesting article about how James Holmes built a stockpile slowly over time from online sources:

    James Holmes built up Aurora arsenal of bullets, ballistic gear through unregulated online market - CBS News
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  13. #13
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    My oldest step daughter and her husband live a few miles away. They are fine and thanks for the concern.

    My biggest fear is more copycat murders like this. I really feel that we have gotten to a point in our society where individuals develop with no sense of remorse.

  14. #14
    ...and a Pirate's heart. Convergence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick View Post
    My biggest fear is more copycat murders like this.
    While I'm not trying to diminish your concern, it's valid, but these types of nutballs like to be unique, not be someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick View Post
    I really feel that we have gotten to a point in our society where individuals develop with no sense of remorse.
    This could be based on information overload. Bad seeds have always been around. It's a numbers thing. Personally, I think genetics plays a key roll then perhaps triggered by an event or events in that person's life. Justifying it? Not at all. Every once in a while you just get a bad egg.

    Just search for such events - they go back nearly 200 years in our Country alone...
    Salty kisses, Sandy toes, and a Pirate's heart...

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  16. #15
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    I know this is a hot button topic, but I think the people are the problem. If they're determined enough, they'll find/ make a weapon out of anything. What I don't understand is why they don't just take themselves out instead of others.

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convergence View Post
    This could be based on information overload. Bad seeds have always been around. It's a numbers thing. Personally, I think genetics plays a key roll then perhaps triggered by an event or events in that person's life. Justifying it? Not at all. Every once in a while you just get a bad egg.

    Just search for such events - they go back nearly 200 years in our Country alone...
    I agree with you here Convergence.

    And good to hear that your family is okay Chuck.

    It is sad that a bad egg has to go and do something like this, but the problem with gun regulations is that they typically only affect the law abiding citizen. If someone wants a gun, they will get it one way or another. With gun regulations, people are left defenseless against the criminals who don't care what regulations are in place. I did a report a couple of years back and in my research i discovered that in every state, any time a gun law has been past the crime rate shot up. Because the criminals knew that people didn't have a way to protect themselves. But when these laws were repealed, crime dropped again because criminals don't want to attack someone who could have a gun on them. Now I'm not saying just let people have free run of weapons, there does need to be some regulation and record keeping of gunowners and gun related transactions, but there does need to be a balance between full regulation and freedom.

    Imagine if people (good, law-abiding citizens) visiting the theater were allowed to have a concealed weapon on them. As soon as they realized that there was a shooter, they would have responded and stopped him from killing more people.

    This actually happened at a University years back (I don't remember what university though). But there was a shooter and several students heard about it, went to their cars grabbed their guns, and stopped the shooter.

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  19. #17
    ...and a Pirate's heart. Convergence's Avatar
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    Governor of Colorado summed it up pretty well:

    ...but even if you didn't have access to guns, this guy was diabolical. Right? He would have found explosives, he would have found something else, some sort of poisonous gas, he would have done something to create this horror.
    Bad egg...
    Salty kisses, Sandy toes, and a Pirate's heart...

  20. #18
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    Yep that seems like the short and simple of it.

    btw, this is off topic, but I like you signature convergence. haha

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  22. #19
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRevo View Post
    IImagine if people (good, law-abiding citizens) visiting the theater were allowed to have a concealed weapon on them. As soon as they realized that there was a shooter, they would have responded and stopped him from killing more people.
    I agree with your post but, the way that wacko was dressed in all that SWAT gear, and how fast he did what he did, I don't think that someone else with a gun would have had the time to stop him in time...

  23. #20
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    Now the SWAT gear thing is an issue. I argue for limited gun regulation, but allowing someone to purchase full body kevlar online with no regulation or record keeping is a little much. There really is no reason for someone to need all that gear if they are not law enforcement or military. Its with instances like this that regulation needs to come into place.

    And yeah I totally forgot that he had the SWAT gear.

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  25. #21
    Moderator BurgerBoy's Avatar
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    I have a Kentucky Concealed Carry License and I carry every where I go when I'm not at home. There's too many nuts out there and the police cannot protect you and your family, when you only have seconds to defend yourself and your family, and the police are 15 minutes away.

    KY is also an open carry state and the police don't bother you when they see you carrying a gun on your hip.

    I would carry a policeman on my hip but they are to heavy to carry with you so I carry a handgun instead.

    I go to the range and shoot all the time so I can hit what I shoot at, should the need arise, and not hit bystanders.
    Last edited by BurgerBoy; July 26th, 2012 at 08:00 AM.

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  27. #22
    Moderator BurgerBoy's Avatar
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    You can buy all the guns and ammo you want online:

    https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclien...w=1600&bih=782

    https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=...w=1600&bih=782

    When you buy guns online - they cannot be shipped directly to you.

    They are sent to a federal licensed gun store near where you live and they run a background check on you before you can pick it up at your local gun store.

    They make it sound like you can just walk into a gun shop - buy one - and walk out on TV.

    They lie!

    When you buy a gun in a store in KY you fill out an application. While you are in the store the store calls the KY State Police. The KSP run you through the KSP database and the FBI database.

    If you pass both of those - then you can buy the gun and take it out of the store. If you don't pass - you cannot buy a gun.

    For a Concealed Carry license you have to take a course from the KY Department of Criminal Justice. There are trained instructors in just about every town in KY.

    At the end of the course they take you to a shooting range and you have to qualify shooting at the range.

    If you pass the course you will receive a certificate in the mail. You take the certificate to your local sheriff's office. You fill out an application for a CC License.

    They mail it to the KSP. This time you are run through the Kentucky State Police database, the FBI database and the ATF database.

    If you pass all 3 background checks then you will be given a Kentucky Concealed Deadly Weapons License. You have to renew it every 5 years.

    This is the way it works in just about every state that is not an anti-gun state. The anti-gun people lie on TV and most people believe them and don't look up the laws themselves and see how much they lie on TV.

    The reason that nut was able to buy the guns online was because he had no prior criminal history and did not show up in any of the databases.

    Gun are already regulated and controlled. Sometimes the laws are just not enforced by the people that are suppose to be enforcing them.

    My KY License is good in every state in the US except for five of the anti-gun states.

    Go to this forum. They have thousands of members and get several thousand new post every day. I'm a member of it. DefensiveCarry Concealed Carry Forum
    Last edited by BurgerBoy; July 26th, 2012 at 12:57 PM.

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  28. #23
    What's the word? Rhia7's Avatar
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    BurgerBoy, I liked the part where you said you'd carry a policeman on your hip but he'd be too heavy

    Thank you for explaining the rigmarole of actually getting a gun.
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  30. #24
    Super Dawg Member Phil Kaufman aka AffiliateHound's Avatar
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    When I was in the fourth grade, a classmate and good friend of mine, and his mother, were both shot and killed by his mother's boyfriend.

    When I was a kid, my father and much of his family were in the retail liquor business. My father was held up at gunpoint twice, but he was lucky and never shot. One cousin of his who owned a liquor store was shot during a robbery and suffered the effects of his shooting the rest of his life. Another cousin of my father's was shot and killed during a robbery in his liquor store.

    In my early days practicing law I handled a lot of family law cases. I appeared in Court for a hearing on one case and my client told me when she saw her husband walk in carrying a case, that she thought he might have a gun in the case. I told the bailiff, who examined the case and found no gun. At the conclusion of the hearing, after the judge announced his decision against the husband and in my client's favor, as the judge was leaving the bench, the husband jumped over the table and ran towards the judge. He was tacked by two bailiffs. I always wonder what he would have done if he had had a gun.

    When I told my then partner about this, he told me about when he had been practicing law earlier in his career in Portland, OR., and then had a partner who handled divorce cases. The husband of a client came to his home one evening and shot and killed him.

    I was in the LA Superior Court Civl Courthouse in downtown LA, two blocks from my office, the morning when a husband shot and killed his wife outside a courtroom, which event led to putting metal detectors in all LA County courthouses. They never put them in Workers' Compensation Appeals Board offices, and following a settlement, the client of a good friend of mine went outside the building with his wife, told her she forced him to agree to settle for less than he wanted, and shot and killed her.

    When my daughter was eight years old, a friend of hers of about the same age and her mother were shot and killed by her father, who then killed himself.

    These are stories that quickly come to mind. There are more.

    -----

    Unfortunately, not all states have the type of rules found in Kentucky. From AZCentral.com:
    "Due to loopholes in Arizona law and in federal law, Arizona buyers are free to purchase guns online from so-called private sellers in their state. No background check and no record of sale are required. Sellers will often ship the guns by mail or meet the buyer in person."
    Also from this news site, in an article posted yesterday:
    "Last year, the City of New York conducted an undercover investigation of online firearms sales. Though private sellers are not required to run background checks, they still must comply with federal law by refusing to sell to people who could not pass a background check.

    "Investigators examined 125 private sellers on 10 websites. Seventy-seven of the 125 online sellers - or 62 percent - agreed to sell a gun to someone who said he could not pass a background check. In fact, 8 of the 10 sellers contacted in Arizona failed this test, according to the group Mayors Against Illegal Guns."
    Since June 10, 2012 a vegan aarf but still writing the Hound Dawg Sports Blog
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  31. #25
    Moderator BurgerBoy's Avatar
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    If criminals don't obey the laws we have now - why do you think they would obey any new laws that were made?

    Criminals can always find a way to get what they want illegally.

    Drugs are not legal, and there are all kind of laws banning them, but you can probably buy them on any street corner in a city.

    It's not a lack of laws. It's a lack of enforcing the laws, that are already on the books, by the people that are suppose to be enforcing them.

    Mexican drug cartels get their guns from the US Government - illegally.
    Last edited by BurgerBoy; July 26th, 2012 at 06:30 PM.

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