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  1. #1
    The affiliate formerly known as ojmoo
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    Angry Do they really think I am a fool?
    ---rant---
    You know, if you want to lower your commission payout that is fine. I don't like it but its business and if that is what you want to do ok. But when you give me this cock and bull story about focusing on new customers when what you are going is cutting the commissions in half come on.

    The commission changed from 10 for new customers and 4 to old customers to 5 for new customers and 2 for old customers. What does this have to do with new customer acquisitions?
    ---/rant---


    We wanted to let you know of an important change to the Cache affiliate program. Cache’s focus moving forward is on new customer acquisition and as such we have updated our program terms to offer a new payout structure that reflects this push. We have replaced your current program term with a new program term that includes the following:

    5% commission rate for new customers
    2% commission rate for existing customers
    Expert who says Moo

    a.k.a. OJMOO

    Cow Dance



  2. #2
    ...and a Pirate's heart. Convergence's Avatar
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    Beat me to it...
    Salty kisses, Sandy toes, and a Pirate's heart...

  3. #3
    The affiliate formerly known as ojmoo
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    Cool
    Convergence: They requested email comments did you email them? I did.
    Expert who says Moo

    a.k.a. OJMOO

    Cow Dance


  4. #4
    ...and a Pirate's heart. Convergence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oranges View Post
    Convergence: They requested email comments did you email them? I did.
    Yes. Two words: "Bad Move"...
    Salty kisses, Sandy toes, and a Pirate's heart...

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador daiarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convergence View Post
    Yes. Two words: "Bad Move"...
    I could think of two stronger words!!!!!!!!!
    0 to $1m before I am 70, Ok maybe 71 !!! (April 2013)
    You Can Eat Our Noodles Without Gaining A Pound
    What is this life if full of care we have no time to stand and stare.

  6. #6
    Member Prosperent's Avatar
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    Same e-mail here as well. Told them largely the same

  7. #7
    OPM/Moderator Hectic GHC's Avatar
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    I like the model of paying more for new customers and less for old customers. You will see that in some of my programs soon.

    But, oranges is right. Lowering both and blaming it on new customer acquisition is
    Greg Hoffman
    Affiliate Marketing Advocate of the Year 2016; Best OPM/Agency - 2014; Best OPM/Agency, Five Years in a Row - ABestWeb.
    Visit Greg Hoffman Consulting


  8. #8
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akagorilla View Post
    I like the model of paying more for new customers and less for old customers. You will see that in some of my programs soon.

    But, oranges is right. Lowering both and blaming it on new customer acquisition is
    From a merchant perspective I can easily understand the logic of paying more for new customers, and less for old customers, but from the affiliate side, I may have a couple of questions behind that logic...

    First: As an affiliate, why should we need to research if a customer we send to a merchant is a new customer, or an old customer?

    Let's say that the affiliate have 1000's of products pages from merchant X on their site, because the affiliate is using the merchant datafeed...

    For example:
    Today, customer "John Doe" is looking for "personalized sunglasses" on the net, and visits an affiliate site that promotes merchants that sell personalized products, and click a link on the affiliate site that goes to merchant X that sells the "personalized sunglasses", and buy the product today...

    A few days, or weeks from now, that same "John Doe" customer is now looking on the net for "personalized Underwear", because "John Doe" thinks that now that he have his "personalized sunglasses", that if can find some "personalized Underwear" too, he may look cool relaxing on his backyard...

    But, if for whatever reason instead of going directly back to the merchant where he purchased the "personalized sunglasses" before, he lands on the same affiliate website from where he found the link to the "personalized sunglasses" before, and now find a link to a "personalized Underwear" product from that same merchant X, and clicks and buys his pink "personalized Underwear" at that new time, why should the affiliate be paid less commission this time?

    Second: As an affiliate, how can we verify that customer "John Doe" is an old customer of merchant X?

    How can we as affiliates trust merchant X word 100% that customer "John Doe", is an old customer of their merchant site?

    Third: If that customer "John Doe" is an old customer of merchant X, what is that same old customer "John Doe" doing on the affiliate site?

    -----------------

    Yes, I know all that may sound confusing but, the way I see it, is this:

    When it comes to the issue of new customers vs. old customers, I think that it should be the merchant responsibility to keep and maintain their new customers in a way that such customers would not have a need to be searching the net for products related to what they allready have on their merchant website, by seaching somewhere else on the net.

    On my hypothetical examples above, it may not be a way for an affiliate to know in advance if customer "John Doe" is an old customer of merchant X, or a new customer of merchant X, but if we knew that fact, and we also new the fact that by sending the poor old "John Doe" customer to that same greedy merchant X, that now we would get less commissions for our job well done, how would merchant X feel if by this second customer visit to our affiliate site, we now redirect that same old customer "John Doe" to a competitor that is willing to pay the full original commission on any product sold?

    I hate to have to mention the word parasites on this post, but this is a related example for merchants that don't get it right.

    Merchants that have parasites on their programs may pay full commissions for customers that they may not have to, because what almost everybody here allready knows about parasites.

    But, it really sucks when hard working affiliates get the shaft while doing the right things, just because some of the excuses some merchants make in order to save a buck from the wrong source of affiliates.

    Over and out!


  9. #9
    Member Prosperent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sal View Post
    When it comes to the issue of new customers vs. old customers, I think that it should be the merchant responsibility to keep and maintain their new customers in a way that such customers would not have a need to be searching the net for products related to what they allready have on their merchant website, by seaching somewhere else on the net.
    I think that would be my main point as well. If I sent a merchant a return customer, it is because they were out researching something they didn't know the merchant had to begin with, or were unsure about reusing the merchant for some reason. The information they gathered on my site was enough to change their mind, or solidify the decision to shop with the merchant again.


  10. #10
    OPM/Moderator Hectic GHC's Avatar
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    Reality: customers are stupid and not loyal. They Google the word Google and they want the best deal.
    Greg Hoffman
    Affiliate Marketing Advocate of the Year 2016; Best OPM/Agency - 2014; Best OPM/Agency, Five Years in a Row - ABestWeb.
    Visit Greg Hoffman Consulting

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  12. #11
    Member Prosperent's Avatar
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    True story. I remember the AOL search data that was released back in 2005 or so. The majority of searches were people typing a site name in the search bar.

  13. #12
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akagorilla View Post
    Reality: customers are stupid and not loyal. They Google the word Google and they want the best deal.
    Be careful of what you say abut customers in public!

    Go watch some "Under Cover Boss" episodes and you'll see what I meant.


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  15. #13
    ABW Ambassador
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    Quote Originally Posted by akagorilla View Post
    I like the model of paying more for new customers and less for old customers. You will see that in some of my programs soon.
    I think this "new customers" vs "old customers" idea is the smart excuse for merchants to pay less commission to affiliates.

    A sale is a sale, whether it is from a new customer or an old customer.

    It doesn't cost more or less for the merchant to sell the same product to a new customer or an old customer.

    Plus, if an affiliate re-sent the "old customer" back to your site, the affiliate deserve to get the full commission because he/she did the job and convinced the "old customer" to shop on your site.


  16. #14
    Member Prosperent's Avatar
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    I have a great example I can share that shows the impact of this exact change.

    Zappos was our number 1 merchant since the day we launched back in 2009. They were ahead of every other merchant by a significant amount....Until a few months back when they decided to lower commission rates for new versus existing customers. In 90 days they went from number 1 to number 3. They went from 3X the earnings of the second place merchant to 1/2 of first place. At the same time their terms got worse, Nordstrom's improved, and the impact was huge. We're talking 500K in sales to 50K in sales in just a few months.

    Luckily, we were able to show them this, and needless to say, we now have a flat commission rate for both new and existing customers. They have now moved back to second place, and have seen a 264% increase in revenue from us in just 2 weeks.


  17. #15
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prosperent View Post
    True story. I remember the AOL search data that was released back in 2005 or so. The majority of searches were people typing a site name in the search bar.
    Now I think you're insulting me, and many more people like me, that may type a site name in the search bar, in case we got the spelling wrong.

    Entering a website URL name directly on the address bar can lead to a naked people site, if we make any misspelling on the name.

    When I am not sure how to spell some website name, I usually type it on goofle first, just to make sure I don't end up on some distracting wrong site by mistake.


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  19. #16
    ...and a Pirate's heart. Convergence's Avatar
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    New vs Existing wouldn't be bad at all - if the merchants presented it correctly.

    OLD Terms: 8% commission

    NEW Terms: 8% commission existing customers / 10% NEW customers.

    Instead they slash the hell out of the original 8%.

    If they were to make it look like a BONUS for new customers - there would be far less backlash...
    Salty kisses, Sandy toes, and a Pirate's heart...


  20. #17
    Member Prosperent's Avatar
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    That would certainly be a better way to go about it. The issue they have currently is one of competition. The merchant runs numbers and notices that they can cut affiliate payouts 30 percent by lowering the commission rate for existing customers. What they don't consider is the fact that there are multiple merchants in each niche. Lowering the base rate has the unintended consequence of potentially causing them to be completely replaced by a competitor on their affiliates sites. This in turn lowers their revenue across the board. They then contact us (the affiliate) wondering why their conversion rate and traffic sucks YOY.


  21. #18
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convergence View Post
    New vs Existing wouldn't be bad at all - if the merchants presented it correctly.

    OLD Terms: 8% commission

    NEW Terms: 8% commission existing customers / 10% NEW customers.

    Instead they slash the hell out of the original 8%.

    If they were to make it look like a BONUS for new customers - there would be far less backlash...
    That may sound like a dream solution, but there are some merchants that are actually doing that same "make it look like a BONUS for new customers", idea.

    And I like it!

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  23. #19
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    I think this "new customers" vs "old customers" idea is the smart excuse for merchants to pay less commission to affiliates.

    A sale is a sale, whether it is from a new customer or an old customer.

    It doesn't cost more or less for the merchant to sell the same product to a new customer or an old customer.

    Plus, if an affiliate re-sent the "old customer" back to your site, the affiliate deserve to get the full commission because he/she did the job and convinced the "old customer" to shop on your site.
    Merchants who think like that are looking for an excuse to claim the affiliate isn't bringing the sales. When they cross that line they need to shutdown their affiliate program and pay for their traffic, then they know all sale came from their efforts alone. Otherwise you need to partner with your affiliates and treat them with respect.


  24. #20
    Super Dawg Member Phil Kaufman aka AffiliateHound's Avatar
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    Lowering commission rates for "old" customers is just a disguise and part of the overall, continual, pervasive lowering of commission rates running rampant through the industry. As was said above several times but worth repeating over and over, if the customer "belonged" to the merchant, they would not have been searching for the product on the affiliate's site.
    Since June 10, 2012 a vegan aarf but still writing the Hound Dawg Sports Blog
    "If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?" -John Wooden;
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  25. #21
    The affiliate formerly known as ojmoo
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    Firstly which isn't really important to evolution of the discussion, Cache started out with a 8% flat rate. Then they changed it to 10% for new and 6 % for old and then the new change which was the cause of my rant.

    But secondly, thinking about this it would be perfectly ok for a merchant to say that on the same cookie a commission of X and then if the user visits again on the same cookie as before the second sale would be at a lower commission. (This wouldn't be the case since the amount of occurances with cache was only 1.)

    As everyone said, very very very few affiliates are savvy enough to determine which visitors are return customers and which are new customers. You might be able to tell if the visitor is a new visitor to your site but not if they bought anything from the merchant. So the point is that any such rational is counter productive to the merchant since all the affiliate sees is the lowering of commissions and will replace the merchant with a higher paying merchant.

    We all know that a merchant will never give an affiliate a list of their old customers so that the affiliate can make sure they never go to that merchant which is the only rational reaction by an affiliate. If a merchant wants more new customers than old than the solution is very old, X-percent off for new customers coupons. This is the most practical way of doing it through marketing channels (affiliate or otherwise).

    I dare the merchants to try that trick (paying lower per click) with google adwords. At least google adwords knows who has visited your site before and who hasn't.
    Expert who says Moo

    a.k.a. OJMOO

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