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  1. #1
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    Okay Folks, we all know, or I hope you all know, CJ had that hidden setting that (CJ says) as of the interface changeover last month, now is defeating merchants paying additional sales on a cookie if it was set to 1 time. That CJ "came clean" as they explain putting it above board because thery did not think it was right to have it that way (uhhmmm) and now we have to go merchant to merchant to convince them to change it to the Unlimited Until End of Cookie setting so we get paid.

    Well ok, I have over 440 merchants and although I started this over two weeks ago, I'm barely getting through them BUT, I have had a couple absolutely refuse to honor their previous posted contract terms and I think we should keep a running thread of those that are set to 1 time action occurrence so we all know who is doing this to us.

    I know I am making headway though, I got quite a few to send out general notices on CJ they were changing terms to pay every sale in recent days!!! I'm out there fighting for all of us but, I could use a lil help folks, we need to pressure these non-lead program one timers (or those setting 1 day cookie - same thing) that they gotta honor their posted terms we agreed to at the time we agreed to !!! A contract is a contract is a contract and there is no such thing as arbitrary change and, if we start comunicating who is not paying and we stop using their program we can force change. You have power, use it, post the black list.

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  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador ShoreMark's Avatar
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    I've gotten a number of change of terms messages since the change from merchants changing it from 1 to unlimited. I did get one doing just the opposite that struck me as strange in the middle of the others - I dropped them instead of accepting.

    I weeded out some others and will start weeding out more in the coming week if they don't send a notice of change from the 1 action. What I find disturbing was one merchant note of apology indicating that CJ took it upon themselves to set it at 1 day vs. unlimited as a default.

  3. #3
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    quote:
    CJ took it upon themselves to set it at 1 day vs. unlimited as a default.


    Wow! Is this the same company that is so interested in helping affiliates generate more earnings (and hence increase their earnings as well).

    This seems like ugghhhhhh a move that would only show further favortism to the parasites where an action occurance doesn't mean squat since they generate commisionable sales regradless of a cookie duration or the number of occurances.

    The squeeze is on folks!

  4. #4
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    Or could it be that CJ is making enough from the merchants' monthly fees, and screw the affiliates?

    BWR, thanks for informing us about this problem.
    It may be a contributing factor to the drastic drop in commissions since late last month.

    [This message was edited by DukeOfURL on May 09, 2003 at 05:16 AM.]

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    happypoon wrote:
    quote:
    Wow! Is this the same company that is so interested in helping affiliates generate more earnings (and hence increase their earnings as well).

    This seems like ugghhhhhh a move that would only show further favortism to the parasites where an action occurance doesn't mean squat since they generate commisionable sales regradless of a cookie duration or the number of occurances.

    The squeeze is on folks!

    And it's also the same company that no longer allows Publishers to track how individual products are doing.

    It's the same company that no longer provides chargeback/reversal stats so that the fraudulent merchants in the network can have a Roman Holiday at our expense.

    It's also the same company that knowingly allowed some of its top affiliates to overwrite other affiliate links.

    Still surprised that it's the same company?

    Andy

    "If you were born to be shot, you'll never be hung." -Unknown

  6. #6
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    One small word of caution, as this might have happened to other merchants, as it happened to us.

    We had no idea our cookie had been set to a 1 time occurrence. I can't say that it was already set to that or if it "turned" that way after CJ upgraded. At any rate, I quickly changed it, but it only affected signups going forward. I thought I had sucessfully overwritten all the previous signups as well, but it didn't work for me the first time. It took another ABW member (thank you EmDub) to let me know that it was still set at 1 time for previous signups. I then reset it again, and it apparently seems to have worked.

    However, the only way it would "take" for existing signups was when the PUBLISHERS accepted the "new" terms. There is some confusion as to what happens if the publisher doesn't accept the terms within the 2 week limit they have to do so (I think that the terms are then automatically accepted, but there is dispute there) but the fact is that there are at least 2 weeks when a pending offer could be sitting at CJ waiting for the publisher to accept.

    I just wanted to make clear that there are some circumstances where clarification might help - just blacklisting merchants might penalize some folks who are trying their best to live up to their terms.

    (And there are some merchants with terms that imply a one-time occurrence, too, so you may want to make sure that the really are violating their terms as stated.)

    Good luck!

    -patrice

    patrice.colancecco.milligan
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    eastwoodcompany.com
    e: patrice@eastwoodco.com
    v: 610.323.2200x2206
    f: 610.323.6268
    ::visit our private forum on abw::

  7. #7
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    quote:
    Originally posted by patrice - eastwoodcompany.com:
    And there are some merchants with terms that imply a one-time occurrence, too, so you may want to make sure that the really are violating their terms as stated.


    Look at what the merchant is selling too. Merchants who are selling one-time things like credit card applications and things like that might have it set to 1 to keep from paying on the same person submitting multiple applications.

    I think one of the PPC SE advertisers also pays only 1 time for an account open. That seems to make sense for what they are selling.

    Like Patrice, we didn't know our program was set to 1 either. We have also changed our program (pending acceptance of the new terms by the affiliates).

    Scott Marino
    WebUndies.com

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador ShoreMark's Avatar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Scott Marino:
    Look at what the merchant is selling too. Merchants who are selling one-time things like credit card applications and things like that might have it set to 1 to keep from paying on the same person submitting multiple applications.


    Yes, I can see that setting for that type of merchant, a dating service and other things with a likely 1 time use wouldn't matter either from a publishers point of view. I also suspected up front (that Patrice confirmed on day 1) that many merchants didn't know it had been set that way, so I didn't start housecleaning right away.

  9. #9
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    Patrice-

    Thanks for that clarification but do you know where affiliates go to see if any of their merchants changed the cookie so that we can accept the pending change?

    I called one mangager and we did it by phone but I'm not sure where to find the interface if others did it on their own...

  10. #10
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    quote:
    Originally posted by reflections:
    do you know where affiliates go to see if any of their merchants changed the cookie so that we can accept the pending change?



    On the botom of the CJ home page (after you log in), there is a section at the very bottom called "Quick Tasks". In there, there is one task titled "Review offers pending your approval."

    I see mine there...

    Scott Marino
    WebUndies.com

  11. #11
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    Reflections, when you log into your CJ account, on the home page, there is a "Quick Tasks" section at the bottom left. In that area, you see "offers pending your approval" as well as other information about terms and transactions. You should see any pending info there.

    There is probably another area to check this, but this one seems to be the easiest.

    Scott, good points!

    -patrice

    patrice.colancecco.milligan
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    eastwoodcompany.com
    e: patrice@eastwoodco.com
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    f: 610.323.6268
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  12. #12
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    One should not even be an option for any merchant. For this reason only (if not others)...If a customer orders a product that is back-ordered or no longer available (it happens) and the order gets cancelled...they next go to re-order a replacement product for which we will not receive the sale credit.

  13. #13
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    Is there something specific from CJ concering this and if so, where I can find it? I would like to send it to my merchants to question them about it.


    TIA.

  14. #14
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    I believe that even date is the date that the actual sale occurs is the event date and that the posting date is the time that it's trasferred from the trackign to the reporting server. From what I understand, the event appears on the reports as soon as it's transferred to the reporting server. Here is whaat CJ defines it as:

    Event Date: The date and time of the event will display.

    Posting Date: The date and time the event posted to the Commission Junction system will display.

    Thanks,

    Josh

  15. #15
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    I know that ours was also automatically changed. I am actually talked to our CJ rep to get more details and I will share these answers as they come.

    Josh

  16. #16
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    As follows is the support discussion with CJ about this, I ask you all please forgive my emotional responses I was, well not in the most pleasant mood upon discovering this action occurrences thing:

    MY SUPPORT CONTACT - 04/28/2003 06:55 AM -
    When you set up the interface were "Action Occurrences" in program terms set to 1 time(s)as a default? - all my programs-terms were unlimited prior to this and I just discovered this new setting you added so I am asking is if this was a default and my affiliates have failed to update this (like the 45 day cookie bit was default) or if suddenly I have about half of my affiliates trying to screw me on this new setting and planninmg to rip me off after the first occurrence.
    please advise,
    Thank You


    CJ RESPONSE 1 - 04/28/2003 10:56 AM -
    Actually before this interface, you were not shown wether or not they paid on Unlimited or just 1 time. This was set up by the original programmer on the advertiser side. It's a decision of what to pay, no default. Before the new interface, the person in charge of the advertiser account would have had to tell you how they pay, there was nothing on the interface to let you know. This is one of the benefits of 6.0, you can actually see this. Please remember terms can change at any time (always check your pending offers). Most advertisers are more than likely reviewing if they should be "Unlimited", stay at "1" or do like 2-?, it is their choice, not CJs.

    MY RESPONSE 1 - 04/28/2003 03:56 PM -
    Cookies had a default setting of 45 days (your own explanations say this in the help section) when the affiliate advertiser opened the interface on their end - most left it that way violating contracted terms with me, and now are you saying there was no default for "action occurrences" like that 45 day setting on cookies? I just assumed it had to be "1 times" because so many affiliates left it that way just like the cookies setting was left at its default, because if this is not the case then under the previous agreements not specifying any action occurrences their wording of the offers - ON THEIR OFFER PAGE - took precednce at the time we agreed creating the affiliate contract between merchant and I and NOT ONE of my affiliates specified anything like that in the wording of their offered contract, only one affiliate tried that slipping it past on me back in 2001 with this first-sale-only BS and upon discovering this I terminated them immediately. So what you are telling me is if there was no "1 time(s)" default setting is its no accident and half my affiliates it have just decided to screw me over or its becoming apparent they always were!

    CJ RESPONSE 2 - 04/28/2003 04:41 PM -
    Advertisers used to have the choice for the cookie to erase itself after the first sale, which was the default, or not to erase itself until the "cookie duration period" was up, which they generally did only if they had multiple actions such as a sale and a lead and wanted to make sure they could both be credited. While the latter set-up benefited publishers our product wasn't really positioned for advertisers to choose it as a benefit specifically to their publishers, it was more like a technical workaround if they had multiple actions.
    Now we are making it possible for advertisers to specify exactly how many "referral occurrences" they wish to pay for. One, two, three, etc., or "unlimited" up to the end of the "cookie duration" period. To our surprise, this flexibility which benefits publishers, and the increased information which we are giving publishers about it, has been responded to with some anger and frustration. It turns out that many publishers misunderstood all along how the cookies worked and thought they had unlimited "action referrals" for the length of the "cookie duration period". But the system has never worked that way and we have always been glad to explain it; there have never been any secrets about how our cookies work.
    Some advertisers clearly specified "unlimited referrals" in their program description; these were in the extreme minority and generally they batch-processed their transaction data (so that the cookie duration was not a factor). If you have a specific advertiser whom you feel had a misleading program description please let us know who they were and send a copy of their program description if you can. We have penalized advertisers for these things before. However, it looks like the main issue is a misunderstanding of the way our system has always worked. We are sorry that has happened.

    MY RESPONSE 2 - 04/28/2003 04:41 PM -
    First, this is how all advertisers have presented it that the sales were unlimited until the end of the coookie - all that ever made mention of a cookie implied this - even sometimes raising cookie duration while lowering commission using this as an excuse to cut commissions explaining we were getting more overall sales by increasing the cookie duration but that the cutting commission would be good because we would still be making more,,,which I always knew was bullshit anyway, irregardless of how you had it set up. You can tell who was doing this kind of crap by checking over the last two or three years who cut their commission and then raised their cookie durations.
    It just goes to show how these merchants have been screwing us.
    NOW, I've contacted "some few" (names starting in - n, o, and p, and I will get the others as I can) of these advertisers that have it now set at "1 times" and of those that have responded so far, they are stunned or so they claim because they say they did not understand it and they thought it was set at "Unlimted Sales" to the end of the cookie duration. Anyway, of those that have responded they said they would look into this and correct it to unlimited sales for the duration of the cookie -although, even though they said this only a third of those have actually sent new offers pending with the change to unlimited, the others seem confused about this SO:
    Please send the instruction on setting this from the merchant point of view to set it to "Unlimited Sales until the end of the Cookie" and how to send this new offer to me for approval, that I can provide these poor "confused" merchants...
    Thank You.


    CJ RESPONSE 3 - 04/29/2003 07:49 AM -
    Advertisers have their own "Ask A Question" area. If they want to know correct procedures they can use that or call us.


    NOW I WOULD LIKE TO ADD:

    First, we have little choice but, to believe CJ, put it this way, none of these merchants had it affected sales would want to suddenly have to pay back years of repeat sales commissions so, could CJ say otherwise?

    Second, Yes, it appears the merchant with that 1 timer setting has to submit you an individualized offer setting your Action Occurrences to "Unlimited Until The End Of Cookie".

    Third, are these merchants being honest? I can't answer that, I know several upon confrontation, if they change the Action Occurrences to Unlimited, have suddenly decided to lower the cookie, and or commissions, some even having the nerve to slap me with a 1 day cookie, grrr. So WHY?? the need to suddenly change that commission or cookie now if that setting did not matter previous to this changeover as CJ alledges before it "came clean" making this deception visible to us?

    As far as those merchats that change it without question, see the last line in this post- and I add, you guys should be thanked for showing honesty in upholding your contracted terms.

    Fourth, ARE THERE ANY OTHER HIDDEN TRICKS THAT HELP MERCHANTS NOT PAY US?


    FINALLY: I'm utterly disgusted by this, when these merchants make an offer and we accept it that IS a contract and as far as I knew from my experience in sales over 20 years - a commission sales contract CANNOT BE CHANGED, unless its mutually agreed - thats the definition of a contract- merchants should not ever be permitted to break a contract, EVER, the only way a merchant should be allowed to change a contract is by mutual negotiation and agreement, OR TERMINATION OF THEIR ENTIRE CJ PROGRAM, if they don't like the terms they offered, too bad. Sales bring new funds and add to a merchants financial position, thus, paying a commission, IS NOT hurting them, as many say...contracts should be kept.

    As it stands now if a merchant violates a contract and you refuse the "offer" then your cut from the program - or they go into effect anyway even if you do not accept, thats not an "offer" thats a threat with program-death to the affiliate that refuses, or just f-you if you don't take it your getting it anyway. Umm, I think they have a word for what you are getting there but, it sure aint Getting- "offers".

    Fellow Publishers: I'm glad if I have helped, Good luck to all in getting paid what you earned.

    To CJ: Maybe you folks should have thought twice and instead of making this hidden control public and as you claim giving merchants this "new control" to stop repeat sales commissions, instead just done away with it...what were you thinking giving merchants a way to intentionally not pay what we earn?
    You know I loved CJ 3 Years ago, it was an awesome thing, and itys still the best network by far but, that "by far" is shrinking with every "downgrade".

    TO THOSE MERCHANTS THAT CHANGED IT TO UNLIMITED WITHOUT CHANGING COOKIE OR COMMISSION, -- YOUR THE BEST, AND WHEN WE GET THROUGH THIS I INTEND TO POST A "TRUSTED MERCHANTS LIST" !!!!

    [This message was edited by Business Website Review on May 09, 2003 at 12:51 PM.]

  17. #17
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    Hi,
    I have had a variety of problems recently with regards to this whole program terms thing. I was contacted by Business Website Review to change our status from 1 to unlimited. I can honestly say it was the first time I had heard anything about this.

    I emailed CJ to ask them what the affiliate was referring to. They explained it to me. I went into the interface to change the program terms to unlimited but I was asked to change our cookie time from 30 to 7 days. This was not meant to harm the affiliates, we have always tried to be fair and just with our affiliates. We only do reversals on customer call ins saying they want to cancel (which I can't even mark bc the CJ reasoning doesn't allow that one), we pay a high commission (15%), and we try to give you good offers to help push the products.

    The decision to change the cookie duratin was in fact an upper management decision due to all of our offers we run. I did this with the understanding that we will reevaluate our sales in 6 months, if they do not appear to do as well, then I plan to lobby to push the cookie date out.

    That said... I went to change one of our accounts, Gardens Alive and instead of giving affiliates the new "offer." Somehow the publishers were all expired. CJ could give me no explanation as to why this happened. I have been trying desperately to contact my publishers to let them know they need to accept the "new" offer or they will be expired, but CJ says there is no way to email them (which I find near impossible to believe).

    Once we get all of this worked out, I plan to put out some new promotions that will be attractive to site visitors, thus driving sales and commissions.

    I'm sorry for any confusion this has caused. We at no time intended to fraud or cheat our publishers, these new terms and this expired thing are all new to us. Please hang in there with us until this matter gets straightened out. I appreciate Business Webstie Review bringing all of this to my attention.

  18. #18
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    OK, we need some kind of a letter to send.

    Here is one I just sent. Improvements requested.
    quote:
    Heading: CJ upgrade made changes that many advertisers did not want

    Are you aware that during the recent "upgrade", without consulting with the advertisers, CJ re-set all advertisers cookies to expire after the first sale thereby making their stated cookie duration invalid after the first sale?

    Many merchants are unaware that this has happened to their program and do not want it that way because it degrades the value of what they have to offer to both current and potential affiliates. Long term cookie duration is a big selling point for any merchant program and I see you had one that, in your original offering, was attractive but it has been decidedly undermined by the Action Referral Occurrence being set to 1 time. I realize that this may not have been done with your knowledge or consent.

    This is how the (Name of Merchant) program is currently reading on the page shown to affiliates. Is this your actual intention? If not, you will have to change it back so that the cookie is kept and affiliates will need to accept your new terms for it to take affect.

    1. Action: Sale

    Action Criteria Not Specified
    Action Referral Period 45 day(s)
    Action Referral Occurrences 1 time(s)
    Commission 15.00%



    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  19. #19
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    I recently got an email from a merchant saying that CJ's new "upgrade" CHANGED their Action Referral Occurrences to ONE time WITHOUT their knowledge.

    They indicated that they just found out about this and they were notifying affiliates that they were changing it back to unlimited.

    There have been several threads on this issue and CJ absolutely WILL NOT give a comprehensive, detailed explanation on why they even OFFER such a silly option as the Action Referral Occurrence. Who knows why they take the 5th on this issue?

    They should also explain why they have it set to "default to 1 time", (as indicated by the merchants recent email).

    There is no need for such BS.

    They could simply offer a cookie without this deceptive little trick.

    If a merchant wants to set it for a day, fine.
    If a merchant wants to set it for a year, fine.
    What you see is what you get.

  20. #20
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    Re: LoriSpencer; I'd like to add that she did not just change one or two programs to Unlimited, but, - She Changed ALL her programs - to "Unlimited" (and this at the height of their season had they done this in 6 months it would not much matter garden companies don't sell much in the dead of winter). We were very satisfied by the fact they changed all their programs. We did of course object to the cookie change as I explained previously but we sincerely appreciate Lori taking the fast action on this, as have most of our affiliates that still had the default setting of 1 time, and that group grows daily adding to a significant number of our affiliates that had already updated it to "Unlimited". Like I said those merchants of ours that did respond quickly to this and you know who you are, you have the Thanks of Business Website Review and all our fellow affiliate publishers of your various programs no doubt, for acting on this. We have "no beef" with you, and in fact, you've proven your value again and again to us and we look forward to a long mutually beneficial relationship. Thank You again Lori, and to those of you not mentioned that are acting to ensure good relations with your affiliates Thank You again as well..


    The rest, well, your on the short list.

    President & CEO
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    The oldest professional review's marketing directory listing hundreds of the finest merchant's reviews on the web since 2000 !

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  21. #21
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    quote:

    If a merchant wants to set it for a day, fine.
    If a merchant wants to set it for a year, fine.
    What you see is what you get.



    Clarification:

    I have no problem with a merchant POSTING it however they want before we agreed to provide our product - marketing them - under set terms.

    Telling us only after catching the merchant, that we were supposed to be paid on all sales - there are words for that, that I do not wish to raise... I do appreciate my affiliates, even under these circumstances because all this will pass and I believe eventually we will all be happily making money together in the future.

    Its just finding out which ones I can trust so I can tell my users they can trust them and cutting exposure on those unwilling to stand behind their word, promoting instead those that have or will.

  22. #22
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    CJ needs to come here and explaint to us lowly affiliates how we go about accepting the changes in cookie durations from one to unlimited. Does this occur if we take no action as I see no alerts when I log in to the stange new interface for CJ 6.0

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  23. #23
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    quote:
    Wow! Is this the same company that is so interested in helping affiliates generate more earnings (and hence increase their earnings as well).


    No, it isn't the same company. That company is long gone. All the people who originally started CJ seem to be gone, have changed or are powerless and it is under entirely different management. This is not that company by any stretch of the imagination. What is here now just had a long ride on CJ's good name which is no longer a very good name.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  24. #24
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    I just logged in and saw that there were 3 merchants in the pending category that were changing from 1 occurrence to unlimited... this was good (although one dropped commission rate...)

    But what I found disturbing was that the expiration date for one of them is 5/12 which I could easily have missed... given that we get so much spam from cj why not send some relevant email to publishers- IE You need to log in to approve the action referral day period....

    I think everyone should log in and check just in case there are merchants that have changed it for you and you don't know it.

  25. #25
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    For what it's worth.
    I have 48 CJ merchants. Just checked the terms on each. Out of 48 merchants, 31 have Action Referral Occurrences set to 1. Thats about 65%
    Don't know if they were reset by default during the "upgrade".

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