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  1. #1
    Full Member AAnnAArchy's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm new on this board, but not new to affiliate programs. What I don't understand is why Linkshare can't require all merchants to pay on a certain date. Why can't merchants be required to pay on, say, the 5th of every month? This is a business for most of us and we should know when the payments will arrive. Adult programs have no problem paying thousands of webmasters weekly, so why can't non-adult businesses manage to at least be able to get checks out on time once a *month*?

    Forgive me if this is a rehash of a subject already posted in the past. I went through old posts, but didn't find any definitive answers.

    AAnn

  2. #2
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    Hello AAnn....

    Have you ever run a business where accounts receivable were involved? Of course there is a specific time when merchants are supposed to pay their bills. While we all appreciate merchants who pay on time, the ones who do not are generally the ones who pay ALL their creditors late.

    This is known in the business world as managing the float, and it is a shoddy business practice, but not unknown. I hate it. You hate it. We all hate it.

    But, since you are obviously an "adult", you might explain to me what you would have LinkShare do with their late-paying merchants?

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  3. #3
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    The network fees and ala-cart services to their merchants have to be paid on time before a set date. The affiliate commissions (less the cut) were never that important to the network cash flow except at CJ. Most those skipping out on the bills had ther shopping cart interfaces turned off so it was no big deal to the networks bottom line. That's why over 600 merchants at LS and BeFree escaped without paying since 1998 without crumbling their fee foundation. The dead pool and some live ones are under no pressure to convert traffic to sales so they let em' ride on just the network fees.

    WebMaster Mike

    "Vision without Action is a daydream .. Action without vision can be a nightmare"
    Combine the two and you have the makings of a profitable reality!

  4. #4
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    Mike...

    I have never said this to you before, as often as we have fought over various issues. But, your post is an outright lie. Not an opinion, simply a lie.

    When one of the LS merchants is late paying, you can bet your ass they are late paying everything - not just affiliate commisssions.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  5. #5
    Full Member AAnnAArchy's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But, since you are obviously an "adult", you might explain to me what you would have LinkShare do with their late-paying merchants?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't know what the adult in quotes thing is supposed to mean, but I'll answer your question as if it's a serious one.

    If LinkShare merchants can't pay on time, then they shouldn't be in the program. It's really that simple. The company's personal business practices mean nothing to me. I sell their products to earn a commission. I expect that commission to be paid monthly on a certain date.
    I'm guessing their employees get paid in a timely manner, so I expect to paid in a timely manner also.

    AAnn

  6. #6
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    Sorry about the "adult" comment. I re-read your post and realized you were talking about adult sites.

    As to your premise that affiliates are merchant salespersonnel, that is just probably the biggest misnomer in this industry. You have very few rights as it pertains to the merchant/affiliate relationship, and none whatsoever as it pertains to an employee relationship.

    We are not the merchants' salesforce, although that is essentially what we do - period.

    Then again, we are not indentured servants either. We can leave at any point and time - even when we are not paid promptly.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  7. #7
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    Hi! I will add my perspective as a merchant..a Linkshare one at that. We pay our own affiliates for now. If and when LS ever offers consolidated payments, we will then work with them doing it that way.We actually pay our affiliates faster than Linkshare turns them around.

    This is how it works for us:

    1. Linkshare releases the commission report around the 5th of each month (except October's report which was late and came ot us around the 15th of November)

    2. We review the report on the same day they release it and I then shoot it off to accounting to get entered in the system.

    3.Once it is entered..it gets queued to print on the very next print run. I specify that these checks must get paid asap and not held for 30 days or even two weeks. So depending on when I hit the check run is when our checks get cut...it may be within a few days or a week at the most.

    Generally our affiliate checks are mailed by the 15th to 20th of each month. I believe LS does not turn around the payment until the beginning of the next month(ie. November commission gets paid out in early January whereas we cut November by mid December)

    We in fact pay off affiliates quicker than we pay off our Linkshare bill because we usually get that one first..and to me it is more important to keep the affiliates happy!

    I know with some companies their accounting cycles are more strict where they only have check runs 1-2x per month..so if you just missed one..you may be delayed a few weeks..

    What I would suggest it working with merchants who are consitent payers month after month and drop the ones that are not so you are not stressing about payments. Or call the merchants and ask about their accounting cycle to get a feel of how they pay and when..Like Don said..if a merchant is late paying you..they are late paying everyone and everything and they do not value their affiliates enough to make sure they are at the top of the heap to get paid!

    Just my thoughts.

    Patty Altaffer
    Affiliate Manager
    AKA Gourmet(www.akagourmet.com)
    patty@akagourmet.com

  8. #8
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    Thank you Patty for that concise commentary.

    As an ol' affiliate of AKA Gourmet, I must say that their payment schedule sometimes defied logic. In other words, I would get a check way before I expected it.

    I do know that LS is working diligently on colsolidated payments. As one can easily imagine, it is just hard to get a few of their larger merchants on-board, as the millions upon millions of dollars they run through the network monthly adds up to a substantial sum as a percentage float in their bank.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #9
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    Plus, they have a Spanish cheese coated with Rosemary that will knock you out! It is some of the most wonderful cheese I have ever eaten.

    Yeah, yeah.... I know that has nothing to do with payments. Just go to http://www.akagourmet.com and find the cheese. You won't be disappointed.

    Disclaimer: I am a big fan of the site, the AM, and the products....

    Obstinate (cheese-breath) Don

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  10. #10
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    Don
    YOu had my mouth watering for the Spanish cheese coated with Rosemary. Took a look around the site and couldn't find it [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]
    Cazzie

  11. #11
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    Let me see if I can help Cazzie...

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  12. #12
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    Cazzie, Patty, et al....

    I am going to treat this one like the honest ol' bastard that I am. I use AKA Gourmet primarily for their chocolate. The cheese is from another merchant Cazzie, and I would feel awful by putting it out here right now after Patty's post.

    Forgive me Patty, please...

    I'll PM you with the details.

    Obstiatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  13. #13
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    Cazzie, you have a PM.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  14. #14
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Don your feeble coverup with cheese & chocolates niceties, after a blatent insult thrown at me, is shocking and a evasive coverup for the abuses reaped on me and thousands of others LS and BeFree affiliates since 1997.

    Obstinatedon: "I have never said this to you before, as often as we have fought over various issues. But, your post is an outright lie. Not an opinion, simply a lie. When one of the LS merchants is late paying, you can bet your ass they are late paying everything - not just affiliate commisssions."

    I have 178 Linkshare merchants in my own deadpool and more than that at BeFree and CJ. Of that LS total only 2 have ever paid me the back commissions owed. Your accusing me of lying to the crew here would mean that every single Linkshare deadpool merchant left the network stiffing BOTH LS and their affiliates for all commissions due and network fees. Are we to believe LS or BF never collect on back bills? The majority of the stiffing of affiliates for millions in back commissions was done on your watch as a executive Board member of Linkshare.

    I said: "The network fees and ala-cart services to their merchants have to be paid on time before a set date."

    As the above LS merchant and the others I've talked to over the years have told me Linkshare mails out invoices for merchant monthly network admin access, banner impressions , bandwidth , autoloads and other Ala-cart fees seperate from the affiliate commissions due. These do carry a firm enforcable due date or LS can pull the plug on slow payers. Is this the damn lie I told?

    I said: "The affiliate commissions (less the cut) were never that important to the network cash flow except at CJ."

    Go back and review my challenges to Stephen Messer and the other network CEO's at the CashPile forum called to try and heal network trust and payment issues in early 2001. Then read all their replies and promises to cure the late payment, and no payment issues, due to lax collection proceedures and troubled merchant floats and grace periods. CJ took my recommendations to heart and one upped both Linkshare and beFree and stole all yuor thunder with EPC -booting out PPC merchants and installing consolidated payments. So getting stiffed by all networks who let their merchants get 2-6 months deliquent on affiliate commissions was a real risk in 2001 ..except for CJ.

    Obviously my observation that networks who would allow merchants to commonly be deliquent for 4-6 months could not feel it was that important an issue to their own cash flow when this was common. The monthly network fees had to be paid or they'd have had to shut down or cut off merchants. True some notorious amounts were published by the bankrupsy courts showing LS got stiffed by the likes of CyberRebates for huge sums. Honest Merchants like AKAgourmet actually preferred to cut their own timely checks, since the LS and BeFree affiliate forces obviously in mass were demanding timely payments and .com bomb protections. 18 months later plans for consolidated payments to cure this trust killing evil that heeps 100% of the collection risks on the affiliates shoulders is still an unannounced fantasy. So I stand by my statement as a fact ...not a lie.

    I personnally help seed the top 2 merchants at Linkshare and beFree as a test to the networks and a statement to the affiliates that a honest hard working affiliate manager could make them money at both networks. With the proper helpful attitude -good creatives and high conversion landing pages and constantly checking the sales reporting tags my test cases could overcome the normals ills of the networks. These guys put the trust and timely payments back into the dying Linkshare and BeFree programs and challenged, like no network wank could ever do, all other affiliate managers to emulate them. Without my doing this both Linkshare and beFree would have seen a mass exodise of real affiliates to the point their only income would come from merchant fees and commission cuts off the Dupers. Newbee recruits would have been unimportant to network cash flow.

    I reiterate:"The affiliate commissions (less the cut) were never that important to the network cash flow except at CJ."

    Was this the Blatent lie.

    I said: "Most those skipping out on the bills had their shopping cart interfaces turned off so it was no big deal to the networks bottom line."

    You forget Don that I have always had 300+ merchants stats on 3 networks to warn the networks who was going to go belly up well in advance of the official network announcement. I even clued in Pud at F**kedcompany.com on these very same companies and batted over 90% on the predictions. Even got credit for being his top source for ecommerce .com bombs for his silly book. If my stats and my sleuthing the media sources show the likes of a Martha Steward or The Outpost aren't reporting sales and I alert the network to start collecting back commissions and fees, before they exit, means I've gone well beyond my duty as an affiliate. The fact my suspecisions come true doesn't make me a lier. A whistle blower extordinaire maybe ..but not a lyer. Who the hell at Linkshare ignored all these warnings causing me and all other affiliates of these exposed deadbeats to be stiffed. This was before ABW so the dirty laundry hung out at Revenews where you trolled as a hidden network insider trying to negate the truth coming from my observations if they effected Linkshare.

    So did 600 merchants skip out on the bills after burning through the madrid of excuses and excessive grace periods for non-payment of commissions. How much of those deadbeat bills did Linkshare and the other networks collect even if it meant law suits. How much was paid to settle affiliate commissions due and how much was just settled for the past due network fees? Regardless.. my statement was they delayed any way they could the pulling of the Free traffic plug knowing full well their program was on life support and those commissions weren't going to get paid.

    I ask you all was this statement a blatent lie?

    I said: "That's why over 600 merchants at LS and BeFree escaped without paying since 1998 without crumbling their fee foundation. The dead pool and some live ones are under no pressure to convert traffic to sales so they let em' ride on just the network fees."

    You sir are trying to make the fine folks here believe the above isn't the truth. Are 600 merchants littering the LS and BF merchant deadpool? Has BF or LS crumbled under the debt load of carrying or writing off millions in unpaid affiliate commissions or un-paid network fees? Do the network salesmen still tell the new merchant prospects they won't have to worry about commissions payouts if they structure quarterly payments and 50.00+ minimums as they try and close the network setup fees and deposits? They can't pitch the network minimums will normally not be exceeded for at least 8-9 months upon startup of the program if they are joining CJ?

    Is this also the source of the blatent lie you tag me with?

    Well Obstinatedon in the 2 years we have spired on what I considered important issues for the well being of normal affiliates who has actually helped the community. I might rant -rave and plead with the powers to be and in the end I slowly turn this industry around from a path leading them into oblivion. I charge nothing for the effort and therefore demand the just results unencumbered by the strings of network corporate influences.

    I recall the subject of this thread was ...
    Okay, I'm new on this board, but not new to affiliate programs. What I don't understand is why Linkshare can't require all merchants to pay on a certain date. Why can't merchants be required to pay on, say, the 5th of every month? This is a business for most of us and we should know when the payments will arrive. Adult programs have no problem paying thousands of webmasters weekly, so why can't non-adult businesses manage to at least be able to get checks out on time once a *month*?

    Forgive me if this is a rehash of a subject already posted in the past. I went through old posts, but didn't find any definitive answers."

    I think I took about 2 minutes of thought and typing to respond to this newbee's question. Were the hell does your venim towards me come from? Please find a way in your heart to give back to this group something they can bank on or just go back to lurking here for your own amusement.

    WebMaster Mike

    "Vision without Action is a daydream .. Action without vision can be a nightmare"
    Combine the two and you have the makings of a profitable reality!

    [This message was edited by EcomCity.com on December 09, 2002 at 12:40 AM.]

  15. #15
    Full Member AAnnAArchy's Avatar
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    Whoa, didn't know I'd opened up Pandora's Box.

    Patty, thanks for the info about your program. Even though your products aren't pricey enough for my greedy tastes, I appreciate a good, prompt paying program. I'll check it out.

    ObstinateDon, while I appreciate the contractual info that says we're not employees of these companies, I think good common sense should apply to their payment plans. Clearly, some merchants care and some don't. I'll have to keep looking for better ones and/or hope the others change. Down the road, I hope I can find the perfect combination of products that sell, prompt payments, lots of return days and good affiliate relations...all in a couple of merchants. A girl can dream.

    AAnn

    P.S. It is so incredibly strange to hear someone call me a newbie. I know it fits here, but still it's weird.

  16. #16
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    Hey Don..Hmm..that cheese does sound good..wish we did carry it..who does? when you say "ol affiliate"..do you mean no longer one? :-/

    I wanted to add..at least in regards to LS payment policy for network fees is pretty tight these days. Like I said..we always have paid our affiliates first and fast..we get that report first..and then wait for the network bill to come in by mai..well..I just had an incident with LS a few months ago where I subtracted a small amount from the bill due to a large fraud order that did not get caught on time to be deducted..I figured it would eventually catch up at LS and they would see the underpayment. Well..the next month, they deducted it again and we paid it short so that means we underpaid this amount twice...and I was working with them to let them know it would be paid back on the next months bill(we are talking a few hundred bucks, not thousands, btw)..the delay was our check cutting cycles...anyway..I get a call saying they are cutting me off if a check was not Fedexed in a day..I was furious about it because we have always paid on time and it was one "banana peel slip to another" kinda problem that was being communicated clearly with their A/R..anyway..I understand why they have to be tough for the merchants who are habitually late month after month..so they are taking a pretty tough stance on that..I HOPE they are doing that with affiliate payments as well..since we pay our own..I have no idea how big of a problem it is..


    and to the comment about not being "big ticket items"..well..we are "small ticket" BUT we have hefty commissions 12-15% regularly and 15-18% through December..and some affiliates are bringing in multiple recipient corporate orders as well..so this is the best time to try us out!

    Patty Altaffer
    Affiliate Manager
    AKA Gourmet(www.akagourmet.com)
    patty@akagourmet.com

  17. #17
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    Nice Rant Mike...

    The lie:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The affiliate commissions (less the cut) were never that important to the network cash flow except at CJ. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If you knew anything at all about the innerworkings and internal banking proceedures at LS, you would choke on your tongue here.

    And BTW, don't you ever call me a lurker again you pompous ass. With all the bragging you do, and have done for years, about how you single-handedly managed to get the networks to do this or that, factually, most of them looked at you as one on the lunatic fringe - not as someone who actually managed to get anything done.

    Recently, you have been of great help here with the parasite issue, and that is commendable. That said, you have no idea what I am doing - or have done for you - period. There are some here who do, but you are not one of them. Unlike you Mike, I do not feel the need to broadcast my work or accomplishments as it pertains to the affiliate community.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  18. #18
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    Don vs. Mike
    Celebrity affiliate boxing

    Sales are everywhere, Sales are mine.

  19. #19
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    Damn! I hope I don't look as bad as Refrigerator Perry did in his last match, [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  20. #20
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Yep ..that's me. A small PITA with a bullhorn consistantly shouting for network action on issues that impact normal affiliate's income.

    If left on their own todays network would operate 100% like it did at the beginning 2001. The thousands of man hours they expended since then would have gone strickly to ASP changes automating the "incent" Dupers and giving birth to the BHO parasites. No detailed and transparency report additions would have appeared at LS or BF, as the merchants didn't demand these, and the Dupers all had Afftrack to data mine the clickstream. The plan would be to keep the normal affiliate in the dark as to non-converting merchants and Adware/Theftware schemes to release the Dupers from the boundry limitations of their own domains.

    Haiko had the foresight to know affiliates and pro-active merchants needed an open forum to discuss real issues rather then rely upon CJU, Revnews or CashPile to pierce the veil of silence at the networks. The networks and non-converting Free traffic merchants playing the affiliates for fools still hate ABW for existing. Get over it ..we aren't going away. Since not one voluntary word ever came from a network to shine a spotlight on obvious abuses heeped upon members here (merchant & affiliate) voices like mine are necessary or it's just business as usual.

    Point to one post you ever made that focused the FIRST spotlight on something that would cause irreparable damage to network trust or damage the income potential of normal affiliates. Everything you have insider knowledge on that was swept under the carpet, and then exposed by me, rankled you and other network powers.

    You can bet if the ABW Nov. 7th policy statement was implemented word for word BOTH the parasites and the networks would have to gut their infrastructures. One doesn't exist without the help of the other.

    WebMaster Mike

    "Vision without Action is a daydream .. Action without vision can be a nightmare"
    Combine the two and you have the makings of a profitable reality!

  21. #21
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    Mike, you said:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Point to one post you ever made that focused the FIRST spotlight on something that would cause irreparable damage to network trust... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Okay, I'm simply going to assume you haven't taken your medication today, and therefore are in "manic" mode.

    I worked for LinkShare. Why in the world would I ever make a statement of any sort that would cause "irreparable" harm to LS, or to any of the networks in general. The industry as a whole is at risk right now, and it is not because of the networks. It is because of affiliates who have stolen from other affiliates.

    Yes, the networks are culpable due to the fact that they did not nip it in the bud early on - that I agree with you 100%.

    But, to cause "irreparable" damage to the networks would put the entire industry out of business. Not just in disarray, but DONE!

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  22. #22
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    **cough, cough**

    Ok guys, debate and make your points, but let's leave the name calling and personal insults out of it. I know the masters of the written word don't have to resort to that.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  23. #23
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    Hi BLFH....

    Have you ever worked on a person with a chronic shoulder injury that despite a couple surguries, simply couldn't get better regardless of the amount of therapy he went through?

    As it pertains to me and Mike; he is my bad shoulder. Sometimes it moves just wrong, and I curse at it. Unfortunately, it hurts me back just the same.

    Point made. Point taken. Sorry about the overt abuse Mike.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  24. #24
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    I never was one to not heed the advice of a southern lady. Never meant for our tug of war to have the networks dangling in the middle over a lava pit. We can't let go of the rope or they perish. So I guess we are on the same side, but at different ends. I can see the networks are a fragile house of cards with the winds of change blowing.

    How about I concede the battle, as your more encumbered than me when it comes to openly expressing yourself, and neither of us are the targets...

    WebMaster Mike

    "Vision without Action is a daydream .. Action without vision can be a nightmare"
    Combine the two and you have the makings of a profitable reality!

  25. #25
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    No need for a concession Mike. As a matter of fact, both of us are the targets - the problem being that we are lined up in the sights of our own.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

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