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  1. #1
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    Hello everyone...

    I may catch hell from Stephen again for putting this out before he does, but I feel that it is in the best interest of the affiliate community - and LinkShare for that matter, that it be done. So here it is...

    Word has reached me that LinkShare has sent a 30 day termination letter to WhenU. Evidently, they have been hesitant about signing the LinkShare addendum, and LS is serious about that particular item for the technology companies (parasites).

    There are a number of issues associated with this bit of news.

    One, LinkShare can't do it alone; they need the regular affiliates' help. We all know that the COC is BS, and a recent conversation I had with a merchant approached by BeFree confirms this very easily. The good folks at BeFree told this merchant that LS restricts merchants from working with certain affiliates, but that BeFree would let them work with anyone they pleased. Of course, the BeFree representative never once declared that the restricted affiliates at LinkShare are parasitic in nature, and just possibly have business practices that are simply illegal; thus possibly putting the merchant at risk as well.

    The LS addendum is still the only thing out there that actually has teeth. Unfortunately for LinkShare, when they terminate someone like WhenU, they also have to go to their merchants who have WhenU as an affiliate and explain to them why that part of their revenue through the network will now cease.

    My suggestion would be for those of you who know the names and addresses of the CEO's of any of these merchants to write them a letter congratulating them on getting WhenU out of their program. You should send these letters to the CEO rather than the AM at these companies simply because, in many cases, the poor AM will have his/her income affected negatively by this action, and will not be as receptive as you might think.

    Anyway, this is a long post, and for that I apologize.

    My best to all of you...

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

    [This message was edited by Obstinatedon on February 03, 2003 at 12:59 PM.]

  2. #2
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Don,

    It is absolutely fantastic news!!! Now, more then ever, the other networks need to step up to the plate and drop WhenU also!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
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  3. #3
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    Mad Doctor Gfufy

  4. #4
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    I restrained from a long line of dancing banana's. LOL. Very good news indeed and points well made Don. Thank-you for going out on the limb and making the announcement. Stephen, please don't beat up Don.

    As always when it comes to the issue of parasites, actions speak far louder than words.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  5. #5
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    Nice................

    ----
    -J
    Merchants: Do you realize that some of your affiliates are being paid commission on sales which you have paid for via PPC, offline advertising, and your targeted mailings?

  6. #6
    Member mrmerchant's Avatar
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    Don:
    While some would suggest that you change your name to MrRhetoric, I have yet to go that far

    So... it seems to me that the interesting fallout here will be answers to questions such as:

    * Will the others (COC networks) respond (react) to LS's throwing the bums out with a similar move (risking looking like reactionists)?

    * Will LS's merchants react positively or negatively to this move ("hey?! who are YOU to tell me who I can or cannot work with" vs. "Gee, guys, thanks for telling us").

    Frankly, I think that the other networks have no choice and that some merchants will react poorly while others will react positively. It all depends on the merchant-network relationship... on a one-by-one basis.

    Does LS have anything to lose? I would suggest yes, they do. Is this gutsy? Again, I think the answer is yes... and I know that everyone over at LS is very keen, lately, on my opinions. So take yourselves out for a beer, guys, on me! Or maybe even a fancy dinner over at that Italian joint... what's it called again? I can't remember it very well.

  7. #7
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Or maybe even a fancy dinner over at that Italian joint... what's it called again? I can't remember it very well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You've got to stop drinking during the day Jeff. lol!

    Best,

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  8. #8
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    This time I disagree with MrMerchant- I am not ready to buy beers for anyone just yet.

    Perhaps I am being a cynic but is this cleverly wrapped in the fact that revenue models are rapidly moving toward CPC deal structures and this move cuts off networks anyway...in that case risk is clearly minimized on LS's end.

    I guess we will soon see by how many merchants continue their relationships on a CPC basis. (Watch this closely folks.)

    This will finally and clearly point to the popular opinion of the people with the most power- the people who sign the checks.

    Don I would have been more impressed by this action if it took place in April 2001, not eleven months later. For example a pitpull has a lot of dangerous teeth, yet we often see them being lead around on a leash...

    Like everyone else I am interested in seeing what happens. Thanks for keeping people looped.

    regards,
    Wayne

    Wayne Porter
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  9. #9
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    Don,

    Unlike you he can tell the difference between a bottle of scotch and a bottle of Scope. :P

    -wayne

  10. #10
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Thanks OBdon for the quick headsup on a proactive move to protect both the normal affiliates and merchants from a real BHO preditor. A nice stat for the affiliate managers who endorsed WhenU/Shopnow thievery will be for them to now see those same sales revert back to their rightful owners.

    Good suggestion to alert and congratulate the actual merchant's staff for no longer accepting getting double dipped on non-commissionable traffic. Sounds of some actual relief finally come from a Nov. 7th meeting participant. It's good to hear it was from Linkshare to take a stand to no longer supporting normal affiliate traffic hijacking at the point of sale by WhenU. Hopefully the others will swallow their egos and do likewise to shut down this "incent" popup theftware player.

    Don don't drink that bottle of Blue Scotch Wayne sent you just share a Colt 45 with me and pretend all is well in affiliate land.

    Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! Where's the love and show me the money?

  11. #11
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Don I would have been more impressed by this action if it took place in April 2001, not eleven months later. For example a pitpull has a lot of dangerous teeth, yet we often see them being lead around on a leash...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    A pitbull is still a pitbull Wayno (I don't know what the hell a pitpull is, but I await with baited breath your description), regardless of how old it gets. As you are well aware, the addendum in April was still being revised and consultation with many parties, including merchants and the tech companies was just starting to get going.

    Now, I would have been more impressed by the action had it happened in December, but from my understanding, there was indeed a timetable - WhenU passed it and was sent the termination letter.

    Kudos to LinkShare, and best of health to you and your little ones Wayne.

    As to MrMerchant's synopsis at the end of his post. He is right on every count I think. (Damn, I hate saying that)

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  12. #12
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    I don't believe a word of it. Linkshare has been using this board to leak positive information for over a year.

    If they did something, let THEM say it.

    They supposedly were protecting us (that is what they leaked onto this board last year), but the truth was that TopMoxie / eBates / et al. were diverting our traffic and stealing our money.

    No offense Don, but I need to hear things from the horse's mouth after all the BS of the past year.

    Let Mr. Messer say where they stand, not hide behind someone else.

  13. #13
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No offense Don, but I need to hear things from the horse's mouth after all the BS of the past year.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    None taken Jimbo. I can imagine that someone from LinkShare will definitely post this information. I do know however that they were supposed to be contacting their merchants about this today, so that is probably why you haven't seen them.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  14. #14
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    I don't know Don...can they post that information on a public message board? To me it would fall under sensitive account information...

    What's your take on that?

    -Wayne

    Wayne Porter
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  15. #15
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A pitbull is still a pitbull Wayno (I don't know what the hell a pitpull is, but I await with baited breath your description), regardless of how old it gets. As you are well aware, the addendum in April was still being revised and consultation with many parties, including merchants and the tech companies was just starting to get going.


    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    I realize that Don. No one has really had a lot of time to study the issue. However LinkShare has had the most. I am the hardest on LS because they CHOSE to be the innovating party and tackle the issue first. Right idea, hesitant and discordant implementation.

    Of course we understand why, but the majority of people do not.

    A pitpull is a pitbull where someone has pushed the "b" into a "p" shape oh ad hominem one. You can take a breath now...


    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now, I would have been more impressed by the action had it happened in December, but from my understanding, there was indeed a timetable - WhenU passed it and was sent the termination letter.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am not holding my breath in this case... I too would have been impressed if it were in December but it wasn't. For that matter, publicly throwing "JambaFind" to the wolves and feeding the remains to the media doesn't impress me either.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and best of health to you and your little ones Wayne. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thanks- and i mean that.


    best,
    Wayne

    Wayne Porter
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  16. #16
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Andy Rodriguez's Avatar
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    Having had numerous conversations with Steve Messer on this and other industry issues, I can vouch for this action by LinkShare.

    I congratulate Steve and LinkShare on this bold and affirmative action at a time when everyone needs to stand together and work to resolve these issues once and for all.

    Decisions being made today are what will determine the future of our industry tomorrow.

    I am also expecting similar news from another service provider.

    Thank you Steve(s) !!

    Andy Rodriguez,
    Online Advertising / Affiliate Marketing Manager

    TigerDirect.com
    P: (305) 415-2313
    E: andy.rodriguez@tigerdirect.com
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  17. #17
    Member mrmerchant's Avatar
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    Whooptie-do, people. You're missing Wayne's point entirely! This is another Jambafind! They're throwing out someone who's model is shifting anyway - away from CPA and to CPC. Big whoop! Who's next, Looksmart? (sorry for the shiver down the spine, y'all)

    Also - let me be perfectly clear on the fact that Looksmart is NOT AT ALL like Jambafind, a so-called "parasite" or WhenU. I use them as an example since they're clearly shifting toward CPC in many cases.

  18. #18
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also - let me be perfectly clear on the fact that Looksmart is NOT AT ALL like Jambafind, a so-called "parasite" or WhenU. I use them as an example since they're clearly shifting toward CPC in many cases.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    True, as far as it goes. They still control the browser MrMerchant, regardless of payment methodology. But then, I suppose that is a minimalist sort of thing in your opinion as well.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  19. #19
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Having had numerous conversations with Steve Messer on this and other industry issues, I can vouch for this action by LinkShare.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    As can I, this is a fact!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
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  20. #20
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    My limited memory recalls the demise of CPC due to flagrant cheating by all parties involved. Introducing CPC back into the mix by some trusted 3rd party like Looksmart -AH-HA -Knoodle or even fineclicks or a biggie like Valueclick seems so 90's.

    Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  21. #21
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Andy Rodriguez's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Obstinatedon:
    They still control the browser <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is exactly why Tiger removed LookSmart from our affiliate program. IMO, they didn't add any value whatsover to our relationship. Why would i as a merchant want to pay a search engine for a direct search on "TigerDirect"?

    After extensive communications with LookSmart, several violation notices of our trademark policies, they left me no choice but to remove them from our program.

    Not one instance did they send me a customer other than by the customer typing in our trademark name.

    Andy Rodriguez,
    Online Advertising / Affiliate Marketing Manager

    TigerDirect.com
    P: (305) 415-2313
    E: andy.rodriguez@tigerdirect.com
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    AIM: miamitigercub

  22. #22
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Way to call them as you see them Andy...worthless commission sharks hijacking free domain traffic

    Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  23. #23
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They still control the browser MrMerchant, regardless of payment methodology. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Don you are correct. Let's map this out...

    A software company shifts away from CPS/CPA and heavily into tiered CPC. Note this map won't work for incentive sites of course.

    1) The network now gets nothing, and no longer has any jurisdiction.

    2) Affiliate's sites will still be popped up on as before unless they start filing some law suits. (i.e. a class in action which I don't see getting much support)

    3) Merchants now pay on a CPC basis or they work around the network as a media buy (and you and I know many will)

    Do you agree Jeff? Don?

    As I have said from the beginning: The only people that really have control over the situation are the merchants and the affiliates because they select their partners. The affiliate networks are like mother-in-laws...

    regards,
    Wayne

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  24. #24
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    My experience with Mother-in-laws was very positive in that they fed me as long as the marriage certificate was active. Now moving out of the jurisdiction of the networks to push the "advertise on your competitors sites" sales pitch leaves me with the sweet almond taste of pure play gorrilla advertising. Shove all the pure play advertisers out of the pay-per-performance industry and the network compliance teams can retire.

    The further the advertising mindset gets from the networks the more successful the model becomes.

    Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  25. #25
    Member mrmerchant's Avatar
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    Andy:
    Dude, there are so many more ways to work with Looksmart - productively (and I'll throw in eBates and all the other ligit players too). It's this type of shallow, thoughtless, knee-jerk reaction (kicking them out) that some merchants (who primarily congrigate within the overly whiney community off ABW) share which disappoints me. You will need to rely on Mr. Porter to further educate you as this is not on my adgenda. Or perhaps call Jeremy Templer (or other members of the looksmart team - who manage areas outside of the affiliate realm).

    Mike: You are high. Don't be such a geek today. Add up the revenue out there being generated by marketing services companies and media properties. CPC is the #1 thriving model, silly man. It's not dead or an out of date dot bomb strategy.

    Wayne: if you start making any more sense on this board, you will cause it to fry. All the crying onto keyboards will leak through - all the way to the core.

    Yes, Wayne, and Steve Messer thinks that he'd make the best Mother-in-Law in the world. All you need is the Linkshare family and you're set. Hell, they'll even hold a universal set of terms for you. A select few of us know how this has pissed off every Fortune 200-held affiliate property (dare I mention our friends up north?). All LS has to do is look at how happy such major affiliates have - so far - been made by LS's demanding that their terms are "The Terms." LS is "the defender of ALL affiliates" and knows what's good for them. Let me be clear for those who are not as in the know: they think LS is arrogant and will not work ONLY under the LS affiliate terms. They will have their own as well - as any ligit business would. Newsflash Linkshare: major corporations may, for now, outsource partnership development with their most strategic of retail/business partners (e.g. The Gap, 1800Flowers, Dell, etc.) but they will never outsource the governing of those relationships. Cutting checks? Sure... you can do that but governing? "Who died and made you Elvis?"

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