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  1. #1
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    Music 123 just reversed $6000 in sales, some of them dating back to July. This may be common practice with Music123, and returns may be common this time of year, but I have serious doubts about whether or not these are all legitimate reversals.

    No more free rides. Music123 links are gone.

  2. #2
    15 years and counting
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    Yes, they are doing that all the time, to everybody.
    Music123 is working overtime today. It's their reversal day. I'm not going to talk figures, but it's insane. Still a lot of Can't ship, Sold out...

    It's not the big that eat the small... it's the fast that eat the slow. Jennings & Haughton

  3. #3
    Action Jackson - King of the World
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    how can you get reversals from back in July??? I don't get it

    Jack Mitchell
    http://jacksretail.com

  4. #4
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    I don't get it either but this would explain the $15 dollars that dissapeared from my account, it seems they reversed a sale in July (nothing since).

  5. #5
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Easy! Unfortunately, they read the Terms where it says they get:

    60 days after the end of the month in which the transaction was made to reverse!

    That'd be the end of July for a July trans, as the month in which it was made.

    That leaves until the end of SEPTEMBER for the reversals to come through for July transactions. Until the actual Terms are changed, reversals like Schmusic123's are well within the REAL time limit.

    That's not to say that they're legitimate reversals...I think they're fishy as H! But they're within the *time* limit...

    There is no knowledge that is not power.~~Ralph Waldo Emerson

  6. #6
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    Anyone ever done a test purchase?

    I

  7. #7
    15 years and counting
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    I did, they track just fine. The problem is they sell before they buy and you end up with reversed transaction because they just don't have the inventory. Then they ship worldwide, it means a lot of invalid CC, then they always find duplicate orders. The problem is I never have duplicate orders, or the truth is, if the customer call them after ordering thru my sites, they just cancel my order. Easy money. Never had a decent answer to my complains.

    It's not the big that eat the small... it's the fast that eat the slow. Jennings & Haughton

  8. #8
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    You know, I really smell a rat here.

    W/in days of joining them and tossing people their way, we have some sales. So I thought, "good merchant"

    So we tossed alot more.... got a FEW more sales, then zilch. Then reversals. I know D! WELL that traffic is good, cause I tossed them to another merchant (Old Glory, which is a whole nother mess!) and got sales... (until Old Glory tosse their whole site....)

    So something is fishy in my book.

    Where is Cedric's singing potatoes when you need them?

    http://SearchToSale.com - Turns your search box into money.

  9. #9
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    Does anyone know if certain types of products by them are always "out of stock"? I have the high end products reversed a lot but not the cheapo ones. Do they seem to have dj gear and electric guitars that aren't reversed????

    Also, has zzsounds or musician's friends worked for people? I find musician's friends tracking questionable.It also seems weird that music123 doesn't write back.

  10. #10
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    Has anyone tried inviting them here to answer questions about why reversals are high?

    {

    "Laziness, Impatience, Hubris. Pick any three" ~ YAPC 19100

  11. #11
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    Skip em. There are others: Mars Music, Musicians Friend both convert for me. At CJ you got GuitarTrader and ProSound & Stage Lighting (DJ Gear & More) whose affiliate manager just signed up on this board. Thats too many reversals, luckily there are some alternatives.

    May all your ups and downs be in bed

  12. #12
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    After being and working w/ musicians for a number of years it is easy to tell why reversals are so high. Most of the musicians that I knew lived hand to mouth hoping for that big break. I once had someone of influence in the music industry come to hear my group and I play. This was for a possible contract. Every 2 bit picker and butt scratcher in town showed up once word slipped out what was happening.

    Every musician thinks that he is the next Elvis waiting to happen and as such when the money goes south, it is a common practice to see guitars, drums and keyboards adorning the walls of the local pawn shop. BTW, would you like fries w/ that order ma'am?

    Mike

    Don't Worry Mama, It Won't Get Freaky!

  13. #13
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Linda - 5starAffiliatePrograms's Avatar
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    Hi All - Keep the Faith!

    I'm new to this board but couldn't resist posting in support of Music123. I don't know the reasons for the reversals but I personally know their new affiliate manager very well.

    I have known very few people with the integrity that she has. We have talked at length about how much she values her affiliates and I know she would not reverse sales unless it was justified.

    One of the toughest jobs that ethical affiliate managers do is to reverse sales. I just had to reverse two $2,000 sales from my top affiliate because they were both fraud. I HATED having to reverse those sales knowing he may question it, but yet how can merchants pay for a sale that we could not make?

    I am also an affiliate for several companies so I know how it feels to be in your shoes and I question reversals sometimes too. I believe strongly that M123 is a reputable company.
    Don't react to a negative post by yanking links for a company you have already invested marketing time into. Do your own due diligence, give the company a chance and keep the faith!

    Hope everything works out for the best!

    Linda
    ProSound and Stage Lighting
    www.pssl.com
    www.catalystEmarketing.com

  14. #14
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Dr. Evil--you're right about the standard state of the musician--BROOOOOOOOKKKEEE!! It's one of the reasons I decided NOT to become a musician!

    But as for Music123, I do think there's more to it than that. I've even had itsy-bitsy items reversed. Like things that were $2.99 (sale price, not commission)! And of course the expensive stuff isn't to be counted either since IT won't stay sold for long...

    There are a few things that seem to stay sold. Those items aren't aimed at the "real musicians", rather they're aimed at music newbies and those who want to play "at" an instrument occasionally as opposed to being serious about it.

    Linda, As for yanking the links, I haven't done that yet but that's only because I haven't found another place that converts yet. But when I do there's absolutely no reason to keep Reversals123 instead just because I've put "marketing time" into it! That marketing can just as easily be swung around to promote a place where the stuff that's sold STAYS sold, and for the entire 60 days past the end of the month in which the transaction is made.

    As for due diligence, if their atrocious Chargeback Rate had been public at the time I signed up for them--I WOULDN'T HAVE signed up for them in the first place and that would have been that.

    There is no knowledge that is not power.~~Ralph Waldo Emerso

  15. #15
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    I have to agree to some extent here with Linda; at least insofar as Music123 being a highly reputable company. I'm very familiar with them, having done business with them for almost 35 years as Zapf's in Philadelphia.

    One thing I can tell you, is that this is not the type of business where everything in their online catalog is just sitting on a shelf waiting to be shipped out on demand. A general music shop can't afford to keep a running inventory of everything that may be available - say, a full set of John Pearse Strings or a replacement head for a doumbek.

    I've just started promoting them in the past month and haven't gotten bitten yet - I know it's too soon - but I'd really like to see them get their act together. That's what I think the problem is; that they've got to get their act together - not doing things like restructuring the entire site without cluing in affiliates beforehand (instead of afterwards like they did), working out a better way of dealing with OOS items, etc. That's why I think it would be beneficial to get them here to work with us, address the issues, and maybe make this into a first rate program. I wouldn't say that if I didn't think they had the potential and the desire (no I am not a shill [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] )

    {

    "Laziness, Impatience, Hubris. Pick any three" ~ YAPC 19100

  16. #16
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    I read what was written above, and I want to point out that Music123's reversal rate is listed at 35%. However, they reversed 97% of the sales I've had with them since July, most of them for "sold Out, out of stock."

    Did it take two months to figure out they were out of stock?

    I have never heard from the affiliate manager, as I have from other managers. No newsletters, no responses to emails, no replies to numerous complaints on this board. I do not feel "valued." What would you think if $6000 in sales were reversed, an donly $200 worth remained?

  17. #17
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    Tzu,

    That's pretty awful. What category of instruments or gear was rejected, or was it in many categories? I did talk to someone at CJ a few months ago about them and he said that a few people were having a very high reversal rate for music123 but he thought that it was the type of
    item ordered. Still, it does seem that this out of stock thing is silly. If they use dropshipping for a larger company than they should find out
    what is available and what isn't. I too have never gotten an email from them.

  18. #18
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    Despite the unusual number of reversals, Music123 has still been one of the top converting music store for my sites, and still has one of the highest EPCs over all of the other music merchants I work with. Although I might not like seeing reversed sales due to inventory issues, etc, I do not find that they reverse orders that are legit. In fact, unlike some other merchants that seem to reverse every order over $X (making me wonder if they just don't want to pay a lot to affiliates), Music123 locks many expensive orders from my sites, giving me some indiciation that the ones they do reverse are very possibly legit.

    I have also inquired to CJ regarding this practice many months ago. Apparently at one time they did investigate, and found that the reversals were legit - they simply sell a lot of merchandise, and their website isn't updated quick enough based on current inventory.

    Is it frustating? Yes. Should they maybe improve their procedures to avoid this problem? Possibly. Does this necessarily mean they are doing something wrong or trying to "screw affiliates"? Absolutely not.

  19. #19
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    Hi Linda,

    Welcome to ABW. I have a quick question, I joined your program but was automatically rejected. I guess the reason is my location. Is there still any chance of getting accepted into your program? Thanks in advance.

  20. #20
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Linda - 5starAffiliatePrograms's Avatar
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    Wly,

    No Problem! The company had made a decision early on to only accept US based sites which does not always make sense to me.

    Just shoot me an email through CJ and let me know we met through this board and I'll get you approved this AM as soon as I get into the office.

    Welcome to the ProSound Team!
    Your Partner in Success,

    Linda
    ProSound and Stage Lighting
    www.pssl.com
    www.catalystEmarketing.com

  21. #21
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    Linda,

    Can you say something about your stocking situation ? I may want to switch from music123 and musician's friends and was wondering if you can say something about your inventory situation.
    Thanks.

  22. #22
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Linda - 5starAffiliatePrograms's Avatar
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    Hi Reflections,

    (I am a little worried about answering ProSound questions on the M123 thread. Maybe we should start a new one. I don't want to get in trouble for promoting our benefits but you asked so here it is...)


    Since we've been in biz for over 26 years and one of our biggest USP's is fast shipping - we stock around 95% of what we sell. Most (not all but most) orders ship the same day.

    I also have people processing web orders that are not on commission. SO when web orders come through that don't verify or the CC is over limit
    or any other challenge - someone calls and emails the customer several times to try to get the order through. Still a web order & you still get the commiss. (Don't know if other merchants do that - I assume so??)

    The only thing is .... even though we have one of the largest pro audio, DJ, karaoke, and lighting inventories - we do not at this point carry musical instruments other than some keyboards and digital gear. So if selling guitars and stuff is important you still may want to keep M123. Maybe offer both and let your customers decide what they want to buy??

    Happy selling whatever you decide!
    (If you join us shoot me an email through CJ and remind me about our conversation here so I'll know who you are when I approve you, OK?)

    Linda
    ProSound and Stage Lighting
    www.pssl.com
    www.catalystEmarketing.com

  23. #23
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    Regarding Music123 and "out of stock" reversals.

    I just can't buy the out of stock excuse. I've been in business all my adult life, and only about 15% of inventory is of the "unstable" type. Now either my customers are only buying that 15% or something is wrong.

    For August, I had $600+ reversed, $700+ extended and $30 accepted

    For July, I had $1500 revered and $300 accepted

    For June, I had $500 revered. (1st month I promoted, them)


    If any business had $3200 out of $3600 in sales returned, they'd be out of business by the weekend. That's 91% return ratio over 3 months. Oh, and all this for 5%? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

    The people at 123 might be nice people, but their return ratio is off the charts.

    And off my sites.



    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img]



    If these are legit returns, it's a wake up call. Either they are too high on price (buyer shops around later) or take to long to ship, or are over charging on shipping & handling fees, don't care about returns, cause they already made their money on the S&H.

    http://SearchToSale.com - Turns your search box into money.

    [This message was edited by AffJus on September 10, 2002 at 01:14 AM.]

    [This message was edited by AffJus on September 10, 2002 at 01:40 AM.]

  24. #24
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    If Music123 has as high of a return rate and fraud rate...then it sounds like they need some major rework of their business process.

    It makes sense that higher end products would have a higher return rate...and a higher fraud rate for that matter. I can see the musician staring at a maxed cc, no cash in the bank, and realizing--60 days after the purchase--that a charge back on the new keyboard might be in order...dude.

    Missoula - Short Stories

  25. #25
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    Hi!
    Music123 has migrated our Affiliate Program from CJ to LinkShare.com. We hope that all of you will join us there.
    In a market where our no hassle returns, 45 day price guaranty and satisfaction guaranty are neccessary in order to be competitive, and manufacturer's back-orders are common, there will always be some post-sale cancellations and returns (reversals).
    The differences in the structure of the programs will create fewer reversals as well as generating greater revenues for our affiliates.
    As the General Manager of our company, I am now personally overseeing our Affiliate Program. I welcome your questions at affiliates@music123.com.
    Thanks for reading this response.
    Jeff Cravetz

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