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  1. #1
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    All,

    Although many know that Upromise is also driven by TopMoxie Software ... many still don't, hence the forum and unfortunately ... the following posts will show why the forum was created.

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
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  2. #2
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Download option on sign up

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
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  3. #3
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    ... the offer

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
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  4. #4
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Then after installing, I go to an affiliate site for a merchant who against parasites, clicked his banner which opened in a new window and ....

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
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  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador
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    A very clear case of how the COC does little to protect affiliates from BHO's interfering with their sales process.

  6. #6
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    It sure would be nice to List somewhere here all the known TopMoxie powered BHO's. Upromise is nothing more than a clone of WhenU/ShopNow and the eBates program. They just were smart by pushing off the reward payouts till your kids are of College Age. Anyone want to bet if the money will still be there in 10 years time. Watch for a bankrupsy, after huge management gouging fees, when some accounts start to mature. Then for the cost of a domain and 10 million spamms later the new improved MorePromises.com comes on the scene.

    Hey networks and merchants get smart. Those BHO incent bonuses should never be forwarded to the perps running these reward scams. They should be held in escrow till the actual member comes forward to claim their cash-points or prizes with a verifiable account balance. That way your not liable if they turn into a Ponzi scheme.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador buy_online's Avatar
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    Thank you Haiko. I am just wearing a frown here, sighing, and shaking my head.

    Fred

    "Yo momma's glasses are so thick she can see into the future."

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador Rick McGrath's Avatar
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    Wait-a-minute...

    My personal compensation package is not tied into affiliate sales so yanking a partnership that intercepts our own organic traffic is not as personally damaging. (I believe this is a factor for some AMs who you're asking to make these decisions). I can do what I think is best for the company even if it means subordinating affiliate sales. While I have fully coached my bosses and executive staff as to what is happening and why it's a good thing to purge these types of relationships they still, while they understand this, look at sales coming through the affiliate network. When they see slower apparent growth I have to justify this.

    As I keep yanking these partners it suppresses the apparent growth of our affiliate program. What frustrates me is I am not seeing new or existing affiliates filling the gap. And what particularly burns me is many have already stated that they will still work with merchants who partner with parasites as they continue business as usual under affiliate anonymity.

    I'll tell you I'm disappointing to have been used as a public example in this way when to my mind I'm one of the short list trying to combat this. The fact is I'm reluctant to go public with the impact on diverted sales volume through the affiliate channel because I don't want to feed ammunition to those that would say "see... diversionary sales generators, downloadable applications, loyalty sites will provide you more sales through your affiliate program".

    I'm doing my part because it's what is right for our business. I'm still waiting though to see the gap filled by remaining affiliates.

    Rick

    Rick McGrath
    Partner Development
    JC Whitney & Co.
    affiliatehelp@JCWhitney.com
    800-863-4227 ext. 5681

  9. #9
    ABW Ambassador phillyburbs's Avatar
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    Rick:
    Thoughtful, insightful post. You're in a tough position and it sounds like you're making a concerted effort to do the right thing. Unlike many affiliates who work for themselves, you have to answer to other people. Instead of taking the easy way out, you've made the effort to educate them and stake out the high ground, ethically speaking. I'm sure I speak for a majority of the ABW posters when I say I appreciate what you're doing.

    Karl Smith
    phillyBurbs - Your Internet Starts Here

  10. #10
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Rick,

    In now way was this example used or intend to slight your efforts or those of corporate, I was only trying to show that your a victim also!

    Shoot, we need more affiliate managers like you!!!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
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  11. #11
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    Rick,

    I'm sure you know this, and I'm sure you've probably told your bosses and executive staff that these applications take credit for sales that were never affiliate-related in the first place.

    When you send out catalogs, newsletters, or when someone types in JC Whitney in their browser address bar, the affiliates driven by software download applications claim credit for sales that JC Whitney wouldn't have paid a commission on in the first place.

    So while there may be a reduction in affiliate sales growth, you have also cut your customer acquisition costs as well. These loyalty sites don't really grow your business, they just take credit for EVERYTHING, whether it's an affiliate-generated sale or not. This makes it difficult to track the overall effect on a particular program, since it's not truly clear cut.

    I believe that once ABW goes to a 100% parasite free merchant status, you will pick up new affiliates that will spur growth in your program.

    Andy

    _______________
    "If you were born to be shot, you'll never be hung." -Unknown

  12. #12
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    I'm sure Rick has heard the B-a-HO pitch before. It goes like this. Hey merchant are you missing out on sales from my huge loyality/rewards shopping club members. Would you like to advertise your site right when a shopper is in the buying mood and process....on your competitors site!!! We have the highest conversion ratio and generate more sales than any of your domain bound affiliates. Just pay us a 3% higher commission rate we can pass onto our shopping club members and we can do business.

    No need to worry about paying our members as we handle that little detail by holding it in trust for them should they ever demand it. We have instituted secret alliances that will guarantee our incent/reward BHO gets installed on 100 million shoppers systems using the latest download technologies. (drive-by installs -e-mail spam scripts -P2P network backdoor bundling -browser shopping bars -downloads from our site) You can bet that we have taken all measures to make sure our members cannot easily un-install our application. None of your competitors can escape your alert incented message poping up during their shopping cart checkout process.

    If they go to any search engine and type in your industries keywords and click on a competitors link your message will popup on that site via our browser plug-in. Join us or well just blast your site with competitors incented Ads anyway!

    Rick has awaken to the holes and ethical/legal ramafications of the BHO pitchmen. If they don't pay their members the merchant is a party to the class action lawsuit by fueling a Ponzi scheme. Rick also knows JC Whitney is the only party responsible for building and managing an in-house loyality shopping service for repeat buyers -car clubs and their loyal catalog shoppers. WTF do they need some BHO incent operators using the porn industry tricks charging them 3% bonus commission on all ways to reach jcwhitney.com via a web browser. Holy crap Batman ...there are over 200 of these scumbags running adware programs all competing for popup alert space on their kidnapped members systems.

    Interesting ecommerce tid-bit for merchants to ponder. BY removing the shopping cart option selection to display a "place discount or coupon code here" line I was able to decrease cart abandonment where that field showed up by 80% for all my ecommerce enabled merchant clients. I just used the feature of return shopper registration log-in to display specials and also adjust the special items purchase prices they saw within the ecatalog. Add the seasonal speicials -free freight offers -manufacturer promos spiffs to your static pages our popups alerts within your own site.

    The cost of advertising associated with pushing coupons or incent deals added to the reduced profit of honoring those offerings ALWAYS reduced the merchants ROI and bottomline. Don't believe me then just ask why the 25 million and 34 million dollar 1st quarter Y2003 losses, just reported by Circuit City and BestBuys, was partial blamed on incent marketing practices pushed upon them by their Ad agencies.

    80% of the commission amount paid by a merchant to any BHO is the scam fee. A merchant like JC Whitney now has finally realized this and should be content to slowly grow their program based upon increasing the number of legit affiliates they cut checks to each and every month. When I receive a merchant check I get motivated to put up more links to them.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

    [This message was edited by EcomCity.com on June 22, 2003 at 12:12 PM.]

  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador Rick McGrath's Avatar
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    Greetings Andy!

    Yes. Am aware of the primary downside of the downloadables and loyalty sites.
    It’s this aspect that you've point out that gets the attention of our executive staff. That loyalty sites and/or downloadable applications intercept our own traffic. And... that we’re handing over to the loyalty sites our own existing customers.
    My position outlined here:
    http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...9&m=9506038143

    Rick



    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andy:
    Rick,

    I'm sure you know this,... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Rick McGrath
    Partner Development
    JC Whitney & Co.
    affiliatehelp@JCWhitney.com
    800-863-4227 ext. 5681

  14. #14
    Member mrmerchant's Avatar
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    I am a member of UPromise. I downloaded this tool to make sure I always save for my child's college fund - always.... even when I'm shopping my favorite catalog companies via the Web.

    Am I totally insane or does this forum/string completely deny the fact that this (above described) person exists??!! Perhaps some of us need to consider the fact that the world exists beyond our own "business interestes."

  15. #15
    Member mrmerchant's Avatar
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    Let me also add that - in my example - I may just choose to click on another (competing) merchant if JCW doesn't participate in uPromise - because I have more interest in my kid's college fund than I do brand loyalty to JCW. Now, then, this is another issue of loyalty transfer in working with such affiliates - at TOTALLY different subject.

  16. #16
    Affiliate Manager Allen Nance's Avatar
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    Mr. Merchant,

    Yes there are many people out there that have those exact feelings and want to get the rebates towards their Childs education. It's a great thing and I admire them for doing that.

    But if that person is really so interested in the Upromise refunds, why doesn’t that person have a really big note pasted on the wall with WWW.UPROMISE.COM in really big letters on it to remind them to go there first?

    Why can't they remember a simple name like Upromise.com?

    Why can't they remember Upromise.com with all the persistent emails that Upromise sends to them?

    The rewards program is fine for me if:

    They market to their own list of people with Email.

    Advertise like the rest of us on PPC instead of just grabbing someone else’s results.

    Stay off my cookies that were created because of my marketing not theirs.

    Until this happens and the networks really come up with a stop all to these BHO's, we will continue to look out for our interests as garnered by the network rules that we signed up with as far back as 1998.

    The world exists WITH our own business interests.

    Allen Nance

    Show me the Big Bucks!

  17. #17
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    mrmerchant,

    Of course you are not being forgotten. Not at all. If saving for your child's college education is so high on your priority list and you actually are thinking about that when you make your shopping decisions (and that commendable), then you can also remember to go directly to upromise to begin your shopping experience.

    It really is that simple. This really is beating the poor dead horse on this argurement. Basicly, doesn't what the end user want count. You could so a search and find the counterpoints to this arguement posted several times already, but I'll say it one more time. Yes what the end user wants is important. Yes they are entitled to their rebate. Yes, incentives can be a driving force in retail sales and beneficial to both merchant and consumer. All of these things are true. But NO, the consumer does not have any right to unwittingly divert my income to someone else. It's only at the point that revenue that should have come to me goes to someone else that there is a problem. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp. And bTW, my opinion is that the consumer is an unwitting victom also.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps some of us need to consider the fact that the world exists beyond our own "business interestes." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thank-you for the good laugh this morning MrM As a savvy business person yourself, I know you are quite aware of the fallacy of that statement. Any business person who wants to stay in business had better not ever let his "business interests" fall into the background. Although, it is very prudent to consider what kind of impact the world beyond our business is impacting upon our business.

    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?

  18. #18
    ABW Ambassador Rick McGrath's Avatar
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    Greetings mrmerchant!

    Let me start with that I’m expressing my opinion from the perspective of this merchant. I do believe the dynamics, considerations, cost/benefit would likely be different for other merchants. I do think JCW’s industry and position in the marketplace has some less-then-common aspects. Your mileage may vary. Additionally, there are considerations I’ve observed that I’m unwilling to post on a public board.

    To your points though… Absolutely! There are many of these customers. But at what cost? No argument, customers may participate in whatever program or downloadable application they choose. I will not ague against that. My point is what’s in it for me? Not a lot. And most of that is very expensive. We still have many more cost effective means available to us that don’t require that we hand over our existing customers.

    As far as the world beyond our own business interests… Again, no argument. There are larger markets out there but at the end of the day we need to make a buck. If the marketing opportunity is too expensive or the customers are too expensive I may have to take a pass.

    I think as CRM and some other technologies get us closer and closer to 1-to-1 marketing we have a clearer idea of what customers are worth. Good customers get the best offers and benefits.

    An no. You're not totally insane.
    Rick


    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mrmerchant:
    Am I totally insane or does this forum/string completely deny the fact that this (above described) person exists??!! Perhaps some of us need to consider the fact that the world exists beyond our own "business interestes."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Rick McGrath
    Partner Development
    JC Whitney & Co.
    affiliatehelp@JCWhitney.com
    800-863-4227 ext. 5681

  19. #19
    ABW Ambassador Rick McGrath's Avatar
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    Valid points,

    Granted, a customer will have more interest in their own purposes, kid’s college fund in this example. And if my competition is there and I’m not this is the only real motivator in my opinion. What’s the cost to the merchant for this kind of customer though. How does it impact life-time-value of this customer to me. What’s sustainable? These are –very- expensive customers. I can list a half dozen of our competitors off the top of my head who have spent themselves out of business before they figured out how to sustain themselves. At some point you need to make a buck. There is such a thing as a deal that is just plane too @#%$ expensive. Frankly I think that’s part of why JCW has continued to thrive.

    I would like to see one LOWER commission structure for loyalty sites and a second higher tier for acquisition where I’m not being asked to pay in perpetuity or turn over my existing customers. Again still other considerations I’m not going to post publicly.

    Thanks,
    Rick


    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mrmerchant:
    Let me also add that - in my example - I may just choose to click on another (competing) merchant if JCW doesn't participate in uPromise - because I have more interest in my kid's college fund than I do brand loyalty to JCW. Now, then, this is another issue of loyalty transfer in working with such affiliates - at TOTALLY different subject.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Rick McGrath
    Partner Development
    JC Whitney & Co.
    affiliatehelp@JCWhitney.com
    800-863-4227 ext. 5681

  20. #20
    ABW Ambassador ShoreMark's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mrmerchant:
    I downloaded this tool to make sure I always save for my child's college fund - always.... even when I'm shopping my favorite catalog companies via the Web.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Forgetting the parasite implications for a moment, suppose you spend $10,000 a year through UPromise, what's that get you? $2-300? That Uhope will be paid to you 18 years from now? For a 4 year college tuition that will be at a bare minimum of $60,000 and that at a state school with the child living at home. If one is truly serious about saving for college, spending lots of money at UPromise merchants doesn't appear to be one of the better avenues, wouldn't spening $1000 less per year put a lot more in that fund?

  21. #21
    ABW Ambassador
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    Forgetting the parasite implications and turning the discussion to how someone chooses to save for their child's college education is beyond the intention of ABW and off topic for this forum.

  22. #22
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    mrmerchant wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am a member of UPromise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Not a huge surprise...

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I downloaded this tool to make sure I always save for my child's college fund - always.... even when I'm shopping my favorite catalog companies via the Web. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If it's so important, why do you need the reminder? Doesn't the Upromise site alone offer enough value to you that you remember to go there in the first place? This isn't rocket science...

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Let me also add that - in my example - I may just choose to click on another (competing) merchant if JCW doesn't participate in uPromise - because I have more interest in my kid's college fund than I do brand loyalty to JCW. Now, then, this is another issue of loyalty transfer in working with such affiliates - at TOTALLY different subject. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Doesn't sound like there's very much loyalty there on your part. If there were, you'd be on the Upromise site to START with, and you wouldn't need to be "reminded."

    Quit wasting your time and my bandwidth and go to Upromise to start with if it's so important.

    Andy

    _______________
    "If you were born to be shot, you'll never be hung." -Unknown

  23. #23
    Member mrmerchant's Avatar
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    "People, people... we've got to get over before we go under!" - Rick, a tip of my hat to one of your favorites, James Brown

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But if that person is really so interested in the Upromise refunds, why doesn’t that person have a really big note pasted on the wall with WWW.UPROMISE.COM in really big letters on it to remind them to go there first? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Why can't other affiliates create their own downloadable app and do the same bloody thing that uPromise and all the other evil-doers do rather than just complain about it and moan, "when will the networks do something to help little old us?" when the fact is the networks LOVE these guys!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But NO, the consumer does not have any right to unwittingly divert my income to someone else. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The consumer has no right to do what they're doing? Surely you're joking. Last I checked, the consumer held all the chips and is a pretty difficult force to slap restrictions on. Myself, I tend to bow to the consumer/market and try to figure out how to make a buck off of consumers.

    I say again, "Perhaps some of us need to consider the fact that the world exists beyond our own 'business interestes.'" I say this again as I find little humor in it, although I'm glad people find it funny I suppose. I'll pair it with, "if you can't beat 'em join 'em." Truly, y'all, you can't argue with market force.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My point is what’s in it for me? Not a lot. And most of that is very expensive. We still have many more cost effective means available to us that don’t require that we hand over our existing customers.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What's in it for McDonalds? AT&T? Walmart? AOL? Coke? Exxon? GM? I doubt that working with, say uPromise, gives them relationships with customers that they might not otherwise have. That's just not true. What this DOES give them is a positive position in the marketplace - supporting schools. People love Coke and McDonalds... for their own reasons. These companies also love to have consumers love them for reasons beyond their products. Working with uPromise is an extension of their customer retention efforts. They kick back money to consumers as part of their brand experience. This has been going on for decades. Do you think that Wendy's would like to have the deal with uPromise? Probably - and that's why McDonalds is there!!! It's just another cost of doing business and is really not so different than buying signage on billboards.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If the marketing opportunity is too expensive or the customers are too expensive I may have to take a pass. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    To this I say, "perhaps you need a bigger budget" or even more insightful (as I pat myself on the back) "maybe we need to pull dollars from another budget" other than the customer acquisition fund. I'm sure JC Whitney spends a lot on retaining customers (e.g. it costs good money to print all those books!) so how is this that much different? Certainly, tho, I understand one thing that drives all of this - catalog companies are not built to spend on "brand experience development." Damn... I think I just shut myself down!

    Finally, Rick, I'm curious. Why doesn't JCW simply come up with a commission structure that supports a new customer bounty, as you point out? Pay everyone a lower commission for (assumed) existing customers and give them a kicker for a new customer? I don't mean to put you on the spot... but then again I suppose I am? Let me cushion it by asking, "what's holding you back? will your affiliate solution provider provide a solution that will support this?" I recently heard that this model is catching on. CJ has implemented such a model with (among others) Territory Ahead.

    Shoremark: Are you seriously trying to shoot holes in uPromises entire business model? Again, buddy, I suggest you may want to stay off of the train tracks. That or hitch a ride on the multi-million dollar machine. This is like telling people that hip-hop music or cel phones that accessorize is not really of long term value to our culture... so we'd be better off spending our money on other things.

    BTW, guys, I'm not a member of uPromise.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If it's so important, why do you need the reminder? Doesn't the Upromise site alone offer enough value to you that you remember to go there in the first place? This isn't rocket science... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No offense, Andy, but I forget. People forget. Why argue with facts? People forget and like to be reminded of what they want to do. How can you possibly argue with that and state that this isn't complicated. That's entirely my point! "Remind me please" isn't complicated at all!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Quit wasting your time and my bandwidth and go to Upromise to start with if it's so important. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm afraid this wasn't very thoughtful. uPromise is trying to save people time (not having to go to the site every time you make a purchase - that saves time, no?) and bandwidth (having an app on your machine seems to save bandwidth, no?).

  24. #24
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mrmerchant:
    [QUOTE]Why can't other affiliates create their own down-loadable app and do the same bloody thing that uPromise and all the other evil-doers do<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Umm ... it's called ethical marketing ... might want to look it up some time! and ... the "Battle of bots" isn't going to gain consumer confidence anytime soon ... DUH!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...rather than just complain about it and moan, "when will the networks do something to help little old us?" when the fact is the networks LOVE these guys!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Of course they do ... they make a percentage of their sales also ... that means a violation of their fiduciary responsibility and trust to Joe Blow affiliate ... they'll learn quick enough ... as will you!

    Consumer schmummer .. they have no bloody idea of what is going on (YET ) ... what was it 40Million uninstalls of WhenU last year? GTFR!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Perhaps some of us need to consider the fact that the world exists beyond our own 'business interests.'" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Maybe the fact is that people are pissed off with the parasites and the shoot it does to their computers ... and the fact that there are successful programs who do NOT participate in parasitic activities ... ever think that? I've seen it ...HERE

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I say this again as I find little humor in it, although I'm glad people find it funny I suppose. I'll pair it with, "if you can't beat 'em join 'em." Truly, y'all, you can't argue with market force.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No ... we can argue with ethics ... and guess what ... we'll win because it's right! ... In the process we'll make a lot of "smart people" look like idiots ... well ... they took the wrong side ... it's just that simple!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What's in it for McDonalds? AT&T? Wilmar? AOL? Coke? Exxon? GM?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Online ... egg on their face, you'll see that ... you have my word!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To this I say, "perhaps you need a bigger budget"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeah what's the going rate for cobunduled shit now? 7-10 cents? Nice marketing plan ... why not bundle with porn shit also ... some of them already have california bikini babes ... Geez!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Shoremark: Are you seriously trying to shoot holes in uPromises entire business model? Again, buddy, I suggest you may want to stay off of the train tracks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree ... it's gonna de-rail! Another failure by what's his name ...
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>People forget and like to be reminded of what they want to do. How can you possibly argue with that and state that this isn't complicated. That's entirely my point! "Remind me please" isn't complicated at all!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sure ... they are stealing affiliate traffic and potential and actual sales ... what point don't you understand?

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  25. #25
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
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    Mr. Merchant,

    Ok...I'm getting it now. I guess it's just Wayne who is "neutral" on the subject and just a faciliator. Of course, you just took the notes at the Nov 7th meeting. Your leanings are towards pro software apps. Makes that article you published much more understandable regardless of Wayne's explanations.

    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?

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