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  1. #1
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    Google's latest index STINKS!
    Not only did I loose my #1 rankings, google dropped my most profitable site from their listings for no apparent reason. This is the 2nd time google has dropped one of my sites for no apparent reason. The last time, which was Sept-October wasn't quite so painful because the site they dropped wasn't my CASH COW. This drop is going to be PAINFUL.
    Now I guess I wait till the next update and hope everything goes back to normal (yeah like that's happen - I'll have screwed up rankings for another month probably).

    Anyone ever buy Google Ad Words? Do They work or are they a waste of money?

  2. #2
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    Waste of money. The only one who makes money with them is Google.

  3. #3
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    Google AdWords, for me, had a much higher click-through rate than any other type of CPM advertising. However, because it is CPM, it is waaaay more expensive than PPC. I tested it out on a variety of keywords and when the test was finished, so was I.

  4. #4
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    Google adwords are the worst deal going... i tried them for a specific computer model name and cost me a dollar a click.
    Can't agree about the new Google index though, looks good to me.
    And who cares about page rank? It's bullsh*t to say you can't get traffic with a low page rank.. I got a new #1 out of 100,000+ on this update with a page rank 2.. and how many people really use the Google toolbar? It's horrible, I uninstalled it after 10 minutes.

  5. #5
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    www has my site listed again. From what I can tell, this is the old index???

    www2 and 3, my site is missing.

    Hope Google decides not to hose me. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

  6. #6
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    Every time I check the www index, it's the same as last month's. I haven't seen the new index since this morning. Maybe Google won't use it afterall??

  7. #7
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    Hershey,

    It's been back and forth all day. The one thing it hasnt done is include the data of inbound links to many of our sites. That means no page rank, which means horrible returns in search results. keywords that I was getting first page results with are no longer to be found. I imagine they are somewhere around 30 pages deep. The title of my web site has my sight listed on the 5th page or so. Thats bad. Sites with linked to my site, when I type in "the coupon guy", show up before mine does. It's sad, but I think Google has whammied many of us. I don't know what all this means. It might mean that some of us are out of business until we get another site going. I'll wait until next month to see if anythig changes.

  8. #8
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    This is what I get when I search for my inbound links...

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Your search - link:EjbWyw2tyJM:www.thecouponguy.com/ - did not match any documents.

    Suggestions:
    Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
    Try different keywords.
    Try more general keywords.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

  9. #9
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    I am telling you there was something in the algorithm designed to spot reciprocal or circular links. Somehow the formula penalizes you for each pattern that is uncovered. My sites that were dinged are ranked they are just assigned a ranking of zero. Someone on another forum suggested that the penalty factor might be as high as –20 for each cross-linking pattern. If you just cross-link three or four sites you’re on the hell bound express. My advice is if you’re cross-linking, and your sites and have been dinged remove the cross-links. If you don’t cross-link, but were still dinged look for cross-links via top sites and other like things you may participate in. The bottom line is something has dramatically changed with the way google ranks sites. I have site that didn’t get dinged and only has 4 links into it. It now has ranking of 4 under the new system. It looks to me that google in now looking for “honest links” that is other sites that linked to you and got nothing in return. Will it stay this way? My guess is until the next index it will, but I wouldn’t be surprised if google makes some more changes in the next index be they good or bad.

    When you look at it from google’s prospective it makes sense because it is difficult to manipulate. You can’t push your competitors site down by linking it to low quality sites because as long as there are no outgoing links there is no penalty. This system wouldn’t penalize people for running affiliate programs because there are no links back to the affiliates. Mathematically is should be easy to implement, and it is consistent with their dos and don’ts. That is don’t link to something just to increase your page rank.

    [ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: malibber ]

  10. #10
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    I want you all to analyze this site with me:

    http://www.jewelry-by-anixi.com/index.htm

    They were kind enough to put it on display over at jimbob world.

    Old index 5
    New index 0

    Look at their links page and then follow those links. Did you notice how many of them are reciprocal?

  11. #11
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    Seems like they could just not count certain links instead of assessing a "penalty". With page rank, they do, in a sorts, assess the value of each link. If it is coming from a low PR page, then the link has little value. Linking to other pages within my own domains is for navigational purposes and ofcourse I would prefer to link to content on one of my other domains, if I have it, before linking to a domain that isn't mine.

    If people are exploiting crosslinking, it seems like google could just not put much "weight" on those links much as google puts very little if any weight on links from message boards, guestbooks, etc.

  12. #12
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    I agree that what you are saying makes sense from a logical point of view, but mathematically how do you distinguish a guest book page, message board or a top Sites page from any other? To assign a low rank to a links exchange page would require hand examination of the page to make the determination that it is a links page. By simply looking for the reciprocals it can all be done mechanically. I think the purpose of the stiff penalty is to push link exchanges all the way down to the bottom without having to examine them by hand. If am a link exchange site owner and I am an not being penalized for the reciprocal links I can still get a high page ranking by simply having enough non-reciprocal links up.

    [ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: malibber ]

  13. #13
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    I think Google is up to something. I think they hurt a lot of innocent people this time. 2 & 3 are holding to the new index, but www.google.com is still got the old one. It's as if it were on standby - lol! Google is probably trying to "back pedal". I dont think any of this has to do with sites having a lot of links. I noticed some other "affiliate sites" with a bunch of links that are doing just fine with their inbound link data. Personally, I think Google staff tried to interfere in a human way by trying to ban some sites, and manipulate the algos in a human way, and it backfired. Thats my opinion. I think they tried to get some certain people, and in the process f'ed everything up. our buddy at bigbigsavings.com got the shaft with the new index, too. But on the other hand, fatwllet.com, where you will find a BUNCH of links, as well as affiliate links, is doing just fine. go figure. I know I got burned this time. Yahoo is now showing the updated index, but google has gone back to the old. I'll place bets they are trying to undo some damage. Unfortunately people like me, even if things get straightened out with Google, it's doubtful I will appear in Yahoo web page matches. I typed in "www.thecouponguy.com" and my site didnt show up in yahoo at all. Sites linked to mine did, but not mine. It's as if I have been banned or something. I know this, I only have two sites, with minimal cross linking between the two. I do cross link between pages and sections within my domain/site. I hope that doesnt have a negative effect(?)

  14. #14
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    SO is the theory you can't link to a page on another domain that links to you? Could you link to a different page (that doesn't link to you) on another domain?

    I wish they would just tell us the rules. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

  15. #15
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    The trouble with that approach would be that devaluing reciprocal links too much would undermine the ability to reward a site for links from sites from similar themes. A big reason many sites link to each other is because they deal with similar topics. The owners of sites A and B each think the other's material would be of interest to their respective audiences, and they exchange links. It would be quite natural to end up with quite a few circular link patterns, but if those are penalized or ignored, the cream is not going to rise to the top for a lot of topics.

    Elisabeth Archambault

  16. #16
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    Elisabeth,

    I agree! Plus if that was the case, then I guess yahoo should be penalized big time, because alot of sites link to them and I am sure there are alot of circular links between yahoo and other sites. Anyone check to see if yahoo has been dropped from www2?

  17. #17
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    Chuck, I think key distinction is inbound links. I think you can have 1000 of links in from low quality trash sites into your site and still be ok, but once you put up outgoing links back to those same sites the penalty is triggered. Big Big was out of the last index as well. In the past he has tended to push things as far as he can. I remember the time he registered all of those typos for his competitors and claimed he didn’t know anything about it. . Also, I don’t think it was intentional because of the sheer number of sites de-listed. Some of these are very big sites. It would take a massive human effort to do that. BTW I have to pat you on the back for having the balls to call google.

  18. #18
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    Links2you.com is still listed in www2

    Talk about a site that should be banned.

  19. #19
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    I don't think it's caused by cross linking. I have 4 sites with PR ranging from 5 to 6 and only 1 get wiped off by Google.

    I also cross link these sites heavily and trade links with other sites.

    Unfortunately, the one get dropped is my cash cow.

  20. #20
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    The site that got dropped of mine was my "Cash Cow" too. Maybe google doesn't like cash cows? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

  21. #21
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    Hey Chuck, something weird happened a bit ago...

    I uploaded some "improved" pages of a site thats been degoogled and dis-ranked and when I was looking at the pages to check 'em there was page rank.... :eek: :eek:

    I got so excited I left the site and checked Google to see if the index was different but it wasn't and then when I checked the site again page rank had went from 5 to 0 again [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]

    Who knows what the heck is going on??? Not me, but I still am trying to think as positive as possible [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

  22. #22
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    Commission King, I think you hit the nail on the head.

    buckworks.com, I agree the approach is troublesome on a number of levels, but I can’t think of another way to penalize low quality links in a mechanical fashion without conducting a hand examination of each case.

    And maybe it is the circular pattern they look for not just one case for example say I own these Domains: A, B, C, and D

    On Domain A I have links to B,C and D and links in from those same domains.

    On Domain B I have links to A,C and D, and links in from those same domains.

    And so on

    They get around the theme problem because you are linked only to a select number of domains in the same theme and those same select domains are linked backed to you. In other words the pattern is not random as it would occur naturally.

    For those of you that still have active sites that cross-link maybe you just weren’t caught yet. Last month I lost one site and this month I lost three sites. Looking at the sites that are gone vs. the sites that are still there the ones that were the most heavily cross linked where the ones that disappeared. The first site to go was the most heavily cross-linked it had bunch of top site type links in additon to cross-linking to my own sites.

    [ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: malibber ]

    [ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: malibber ]

  23. #23
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    Refining this theory a bit further:

    Google conducts a mechanical examination of your site and your inbound and outbound links. Once it has a snapshot of your site it plots your links pattern on a grid. The more links you have that are the result of cross-links to your own sites, link exchanges and just generally reciprocal links your site pattern will approach a perfect circle on the grid. The penalty is assessed based upon how circular your pattern is. If your pattern is closer to an oval then a smaller penalty is assessed, and if you don’t look like anything like a circle or an oval no penalty is assessed. The increase in the number of sites expelled this index vs. last index is a result of an adjustment to the criteria of how close your pattern can get to a perfect circle and not be penalized. Mathematically it makes sense, and it could all be done mechanically without human interference. This model would allow some cross-linking, but if the overall pattern of you site’s inbound and outbound links approach a perfect circle you are more likely to be penalized.

    [ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: malibber ]

  24. #24
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    I was thinkin along those lines, except I think that after last months 4 day shake up when my sites showed back up I assumed that my crosslinks were ok

    I do think that they are filtering for some kind of crosslinking/spamming like these sites:
    http://www3.google.com/search?hl=en&...omforters.com/
    http://www3.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cheap+phentermine
    (check the cache on the third listing-the geocities site)

    or spamming like these
    http://www3.google.com/search?hl=en&...ture-info.com/

    if you check the cached pages on all these you'll see the spam then some forward or remove the links & keywords entirely after the index updates.

    If google deep crawls after a reindex it will catch some and recheck others......

    those of us who get caught in the filtering are shaken out eventually by a mechanical process of elimination to magically appear in the index a few days later and the spammers who are caught in an immediate recrawl lose their rankings...

    I don't know how well i've verbalized my thoughts as it is darn late and I am blasted tired [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

  25. #25
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    malibber: excellent information there. I am sure you're correct on this. On other forums people are thinking it's to do with images or javascript. But I'm sure it's the cross linking problem - it's been a major whole in their algo for so long.

    What a great month this will be ($$$$) for OVERSURE!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    My sites got blasted too btw.... nightmare.

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