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  1. #1
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    I went from $300+ to $200ish today, first a Hobbytron $130 commission reversed and then a $36 CWD kids commission went. I still feel that any commission over $20 will definitely get reversed, as has been my experience.

    I wish all merchants were like allposters, the reversal rate is so low with them - CJ merchants for me reverse at least 50% of sales, it really makes me wonder how the same website produces so many successful poster sales, yet manages to produce so many "invalid credit card" sales for CJ merchants. Certainly makes me wonder

  2. #2
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    Sammy,

    One reason it seems the bigger sales get reversed is that crooks are greedy. The Romanians, Indonesians and Nigerians think nothing of ordering huge quantities in each order.

    Sometimes it amazes me what I see. We offer gift shipping and I'll see them try to order $400 worth of boxer shorts and try to make it look somebody in the U.S. is sending a very generous gift to their "friend" in another country.

    Unfortunately, most of those "BIG" sales are truly the fraud ones. Not all, but most.

    As you develop a relationship with a merchant, you will start to see a pattern emerge in the sales you generate for them. You will start to see what merchants refer to as an "average ticket". When an order is way out of line with the average ticket, it is one indication that it is potential fraud.

    I will say that 90% of our fraud orders are way larger than our average ticket. I have done things to dramatically reduce fraud orders and the subsequent reversals on our site. We average 3-4 reversals a month due to fraud. Not all merchants are that good at reducing fraud attempts before they happen. They let them come in and void the sale and reverse the commish.

    If a merchant pays well, converts well, accepts sales without long extensions and has a low reversal rate, try to give them the benefit of the doubt when one does get reversed.

    Scott Marino
    WebUndies.com
    It's not just underwear, it's fun to wear!

    CJ ~ 12% commission / 60 day cookies / unlimited actions / parasite free

  3. #3
    Pit Boss redsand's Avatar
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    That is very true ! The other day I had someone purchased $700 worth of perfumes - (who would buy that many perfumes ? unless he/she would resell them ) when I traced the ip, it came from the UN office in NYC. I knew the transaction would get reversed and yes it did.

    A couple days ago, someone bought $500+ worth of t-shirts, which absolutely didn't make any sense since the average t-shirt shoppers at my website only spent less than $50. And today, that transaction was reversed due to the invalid redit card.

    I wouldn't blame the merchants, it is not their fault.

    Another things that you should be aware: consumer electronic products - when someone buys more than $500 worth of goods. Electronic goods are like magnet to the online crooks.

  4. #4
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    "The Romanians, Indonesians and Nigerians think nothing of ordering huge quantities in each order."

    Credit card fraud accounts for probably less than 1% of online transactions, but there are certain CJ merchants who think they all happen to them.

    Out of 80 Performics merchants I've only found a couple where I've had any reversals at all.

    CJ merchants have outrageously high rates of reversals, especially reason invalid credit card. You can evenly distribute merchants from CJ and from other networks throughout a site, and we're suppose to believe that the Romanians, Indonesians and Nigerians just coincidently always pick the CJ merchants out as their targets.

    We produced several hundred sales last month for merchants from other networks last month, and only 2 of those sales were reversed. (no, most are not batch merchants, just as with CJ.)

    I've taken a CJ merchant down on account that the last 5 sales were reversed ...only to give them a second chance a couple months later ...and what happens? The very first new sale is promptly reversed. It's outrageous.

  5. #5
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    CJ also has tracking in real time for many merchants. Most fraud attempts are not caught at the time of the card being initially used, they don't come back stolen. So the purchase goes thru - then they are most likely reviewed after the fact, which results in reversals.

    At least this is how we do it since the processing time and power to do a complete check would take longer and inconvenience honest customers who might think their order timed out.

    If a merchant waited to notify cj or other affiliate programs at the end of the day, reversals would be less, and so would sales as the reversals would not show as sales.

    We sell an item that has no value to be stolen and I would say our fraud attempt rate is at 2%. Kelly, where do you get the 1% rate from?

    Chet

  6. #6
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    "Kelly, where do you get the 1% rate from?"

    Todd Crawford had once posted exactly that once here at ABW. I have come across simular statistics elsewhere on the net.

    There are some decent CJ merchants. I had a T-Shirt merchant once through CJ ...can't remember a single reversal for them. Once a visitor ordered $700 worth of novelty T-shirts from this merchant (average price - approx. $20 per shirt). It was good too.

    That CWD kids mentioned initially in this thread ...bad news. If you're lucky to get a sale reported, it'll probably get reversed. Same with Shepler's, Big Dogs, and good number of other clothing related merchants.

    I can't say anything bad about Hobbytron. Don't remember any reversals from them whatsoever. Commission amounts are never that grand, but at least they stick.

  7. #7
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Chez Noir:
    CJ also has tracking in real time for many merchants. Most fraud attempts are not caught at the time of the card being initially used, they don't come back stolen. So the purchase goes thru - then they are most likely reviewed after the fact, which results in reversals.



    Exactly! While the reversals are the sad after effect, real-time reporting does have advantages. One of them being the reduced ability to *manipulate* the data.

    When dealing with batch files, there is the ability to scrub bad credit cards, fraud and other bad sales from the data. This makes it appear that there are no reversals. You just don't see them, but they are happening.

    I think a lot of the crooks target the smaller and mid-tier sites as they probably already figured out that the Amazons and Overstocks have good fraud detection methods.

    If a merchant is experiencing that many fraud attempts (and reversals), they are in need of help. It's not that hard to reduce fraud, I did it and we only see a few attempts each month slip past.

    Scott Marino
    WebUndies.com
    It's not just underwear, it's fun to wear!

    CJ ~ 12% commission / 60 day cookies / unlimited actions / parasite free

  8. #8
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    quote:
    We sell an item that has no value to be stolen and I would say our fraud attempt rate is at 2%. Kelly, where do you get the 1% rate from?

    So I should assume it's normal for 50% of sales with most of the merchants to be reversed? This is my point, 50% or more of sales get reversed yet the fraud rate is 1 to 2%..... OKKK....

  9. #9
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    Alot of the smaller merchants don't keep a huge inventory of the products they sell. An order is received through their website, and if they don't have the quantity of a certain product in stock, they must order it in and hope the customer will wait.

    Many times a customer will not wait much longer than they are initially led to expect. When the credit purchase cancels for such a reason, the reason invalid credit card is likely to given to the refering publisher.

    Large companies with actual warehouses full of merchandise will in most cases have much lower reversal rates. I have a good number of such large merchants, and it is extremely rare to see reversals with them for any reason.

    Other than the apparent crooks and dupers at CJ, there is this big problem with these smaller company merchants trying to compete with company giants for a sale ...they often times intentionally mislead visitors with false expectations to do so. The end result is high reversal rates, which of course they see as the cost of doing business, but to you as a refering publisher find quite unacceptable.

  10. #10
    ABW Ambassador CDC's Avatar
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    I had a reversal on OCT 7th for "Returned Merchandise". The merchandise was bought on August 10th and the Advertiser has a 30 day return policy.
    BS BS BS


    Chris

  11. #11
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    quote:
    Originally posted by SamyT:
    So I should assume it's normal for 50% of sales with most of the merchants to be reversed? This is my point, 50% or more of sales get reversed yet the fraud rate is 1 to 2%..... OKKK....


    If you are seeing 50% reversal rates, is it for all your merchants?

    If it is, perhaps the crooks like shopping through your site. If you look in your server logs and see lots of traffic from ip's starting with 80., 81., 192., 194., 200., 202., 203. and 212. it's possible it's the visitors you are attracting. Those are some of the high fraud ip's.

    There are merchants out there who don't know how to run a business. Perhaps partnering up with some of the more established businesses would help. You can always look for BizRate ratings and do whois lookups to try to see how long they have been around. More established merchants should do better at reducing fraud and have lower reversals.

    Most of the merchants on ABW run solid programs, so you could always promote them. If they are active on ABW, you should have fewer problems as they are more pro-affiliate.

    Scott Marino
    WebUndies.com
    It's not just underwear, it's fun to wear!

    CJ ~ 12% commission / 60 day cookies / unlimited actions / parasite free

  12. #12
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    "I had a reversal on OCT 7th for "Returned Merchandise". The merchandise was bought on August 10th and the Advertiser has a 30 day return policy.
    BS BS BS."



    ADC,

    Which Store was this?

    Did you get an explanation on why they did this?

    If they didn't fix it, are you still with them?

    Thanks

    Perry
    ClickMagazine.NET

  13. #13
    Affiliate Addict Robert484848's Avatar
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    I once sent $350 worth of shoes to germany from my 1st site (where I wore all the hats) and it was fraud. because it was not in the US I ate the whole amount even though i had a approval number from Visa. They took Amazon.com for over a grand so I did'nt feel like that much of a sucker.
    I have sence turned the site into a affiliate site. Makes for a lot less headaches.
    Now Zappos has all the headaches. Sure they reverse alot but shoes are like that (I own a brick & morter shoe store) and trust me people return shoes alot!!
    For all kinds of reasons, dont like color,fit, feel,ect.....
    I still make good money with zappos so I live with the reversals.

    "I did'nt get where I'm at today by worrying about how I'm going to feel tomorrow."

  14. #14
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    I'm just getting so disheartened at CJ, everyday I log in and have reversals, sometimes on days with no sales. Look at today, two sales (one with CWD kids I'd put money on getting reversed) and one reversal. The reversal from from a sale early in August.

    quote:

    Event Date 11-Aug-2003, 16:46:13 PDT
    Original Transaction Posting Date 11-Aug-2003, 17:39:23 PDT
    Correction Transaction Posting Date 9-Oct-2003, 12:31:15 PDT
    Correction Reason Invalid Credit Card
    Original Amount $159.96
    Original Commission $12.80



    Why did it take two months to work out it was an invalid credit card? Should I query this?

  15. #15
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    quote:
    Originally posted by SamyT:
    Why did it take two months to work out it was an invalid credit card? Should I query this?


    Absolutely question it. 2 Months is a long time to determine that a credit card was invalid. They owe you an explantation.

    Scott Marino
    WebUndies.com
    It's not just underwear, it's fun to wear!

    CJ ~ 12% commission / 60 day cookies / unlimited actions / parasite free

  16. #16
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    ADC? ... Hello???

    ClickMagazine.NET

  17. #17
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    Left Blank

    [This message was edited by Perry on October 10, 2003 at 06:39 PM.]

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