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  1. #1
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    I am doing some research into a new site and think I have a reasonable keyword. Lets call it "pink widget".

    Anyway, Google has 34,000 competing sites for this term. Number 5 at Google is a web page that is obviously spamming Google.

    The stats:
    759 words
    keyword "pink" occurs 14 times - OK a density of 1.84%. That's OK.
    keyword "widget" occurs 217 times - density 28.59%

    the top of the page has huge lettering saying:


    "Buy Widget Here" (24pt font)

    Scroll to the bottom of the page and it is line after line of "this widget that widget pink widget blue widget..........On and on for 700+ words.

    I thought Google had stopped this from happening.

    Anyway, though I would share [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    Andy Williams

    Keyword DARTs - New search engine optimization software
    http://www.affiliate-masters.co.uk/k...timization.htm

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador affiliatemakeover's Avatar
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    I have not seen Google stop anything yet. Every day I come across sites like this, and every month goes by the sites are still there, doing very well.

    Today I found a niche site that had about 50 other niche sites all cross linked to each other, and all doing very very well. The site also had keyword stuffing going on too.

    I will believe Google will penalize, when I see it. Can anyone give me a specific example that you know of a site being penalized for excessive cross linking or keyword stuffing?

    "I want to make you more money with a professional and low cost web design. Let's chat."

  3. #3
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    I'm sorry, but in Google's eyes all SEOs are spammers, - including us. It doesn't fit into their view of the perfect web world that people spend their time trying to influence the index.

    However, currently what Google penalizes is cloaking, hidden text, duplicating and excessive crosslinking, as well as some sites they have taken out manually based on various reasons (like the googlewatch site).

    Sites are allowed to have a high keyword density. Sites are allowed to use the domain widget1-widget2-widget3.com, or to create the subdomain widget1-widget2-widget3.mydomain.com.

    The only thing Google will do is to try to downgrade the results of such sites so that users all in all gets an accuarate and relevant index.

    I'm sorry if I sound hash, but just because someone is high up in the index using methods we wont use ourselves, doesn't mean it's cheating.

    Make another great page instead. The key to high ranking is using proper document structure with keywords in the right places, and content original enough to be listed in the directories. Sites using methods as described above will go up and down in the index like a roller coaster, content sites will stay high up all the time.

    -- Less is more --

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador affiliatemakeover's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sites are allowed to have a high keyword density. Sites are allowed to use the domain widget1-widget2-widget3.com, or to create the subdomain widget1-widget2-widget3.mydomain.com.

    The only thing Google will do is to try to downgrade the results of such sites so that users all in all gets an accuarate and relevant index.

    I'm sorry if I sound hash, but just because someone is high up in the index using methods we wont use ourselves, doesn't mean it's cheating.

    Make another great page instead. The key to high ranking is using proper document structure with keywords in the right places, and content original enough to be listed in the directories. Sites using methods as described above will go up and down in the index like a roller coaster, content sites will stay high up all the time.

    -- _Less is more_ --<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree with you on all points. I don't call it cheating necessarily, only because Google is so vague. The paranoia is, as I sit and work my butt of to build good content pages, that someone else will continue to keep reaping the rewards forever. I just don't see the hammer coming down.

    So...either I play by their rules, or I lose. The problem is, the rules are too undefined and not enforcable. Oh well...

    "I want to make you more money with a professional and low cost web design. Let's chat."

  5. #5
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AffiliateMakeover.com:
    The paranoia is, as I sit and work my butt of to build good content pages, that someone else will continue to keep reaping the rewards forever. I just don't see the hammer coming down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Actually the hammer is coming down all the time. Google is changing the algo/criteria a bit every update, usually hitting these kind of sites. Do a search for "sex" on google, and you'll be amazed of how few p*rn sites are listed in the first 30, and how many "safe sex" sites which are. If spammers owned Google it should be the other way around.

    Think about how many dubious sites there are out there. Those which show up high in the index are the exceptions, the rest of them are buried far down. You will see more of them for 3/4 word keyphrases (using quotes) than for highly competitive phrases. I wont elaborate on why some sites make it, but I see them and I see them quickly disappear again.


    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So...either I play by their rules, or I lose. The problem is, the rules are too undefined and not enforcable. Oh well...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well, you're right, but Google has to be vague in order not to strike "good" sites too. One example, some good content sites has an index on the frontpage listing the content of the site, resulting in a very high keyword density. Striking the easy-riders based on one criteria would also take out many good sites. This is the reason why Google is looking for the right cocktail for which sites should rank high, not emphasizing to much on which sites should rank low.

    -- Less is more --

  6. #6
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    All of us (affiliate marketers) are SE spammers.

    Are you promoting Amazon? They already have their stuff up on their site. KB Toys? Any merchant who has their own site? You are spamming the SE's with redundant results.

    You are an SE spammer. I am an SE spammer. Each and every affiliate site is spamming the engines.

    Just some food for thought.

    All around the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador affiliatemakeover's Avatar
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    The philisophical question is...

    If it's useful, targeted, and relevant, is it still spam?

    "I want to make you more money with a professional and low cost web design. Let's chat."

  8. #8
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    AM, I'm with you on that one. Just food for thought here. A "purist" may see things differently. Imagine a senior ODP editor evaluating sites for MSN or Google. Scary thought.

    All around the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel

  9. #9
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    Keyword spamming on a page does nothing. Doesn't help PR, doesn't help you in the results. I was reading on webmasterworld who has GoogleGuy and it seems what Google looks for in order of importance
    Inbound link text
    Title
    Domain name
    Large h1-h2 headings
    First sentence of first paragraph
    Path or filename
    Beginning of a sentence
    Boldor italic text
    Usage in text
    Title attribute
    Alt tag
    Meta descrip
    Meta keywords

    If you have a domain or site you're not doing anything with, use it to experiment. Try some of those spamming techniques. Text the same color as background and see if it helps you in the results. Also i have read that when reporting spam to Google, out of 20 reports only 1 will they do something about, and it has to be a very serious case of spam.

    Sales are everywhere, Sales are mine.

  10. #10
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You are an SE spammer. I am an SE spammer. Each and every affiliate site is spamming the engines<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So true. All the products and ads I have displayed are already out there. The exception to this would be the real content sites who actually have fewer ads per page than content or services. The rest of us flunked door to door salesmanship, and are doing it on the web - lol!

    Big Chuck

  11. #11
    ABW Ambassador affiliatemakeover's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So true. All the products and ads I have displayed are already out there. The exception to this would be the real content sites who actually have fewer ads per page than content or services. The rest of us flunked door to door salesmanship, and are doing it on the web - lol!

    Big Chuck<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If a merchant does not advertise or market their site/products online, but instead chooses to use affiliates to do it for them, is an affiliate still a spammer? The ads are not out there in that case. Many merchants do this as an effective way to drive traffic and sales.

    "I want to make you more money with a professional and low cost web design. Let's chat."

  12. #12
    ABW Ambassador Doc Sawyer's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You are an SE spammer. I am an SE spammer. Each and every affiliate site is spamming the engines
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I see your point. But isn't access to different vendors a key to free enterprise?

    As an analogy, I am in the market for a GMC Silverado. I know they all come from the same manufacturing plant but one dealer or another can offer me a better deal. As a consumer, I need all the information (print media=advertisments | Google=spam) I can get my mitts on to make an informed choice.

    In my mind, Google's stand is akin to price fixing.

    Doc



    "There comes a time in the affairs of a man when he has to take the bull by the tail and face the situation."
    - W C Fields (Tille and Gus)

  13. #13
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doc Sawyer:

    I see your point. But isn't access to different vendors a key to free enterprise?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Need I point out that an affiliate is not a vendor. An affiliate is a person with a link to a vendor.

    If a hundred affiliates get the top spots for pink widgets. All the affiliates point to the same store with the highest commission on widgets. Well, what you have is a state where one web site has accomplished an effective blackout of the pink widget market.

  14. #14
    ABW Ambassador Doc Sawyer's Avatar
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    That is my point. Price will be the same because the source is the same. It is up to the marketing agent to provide a compelling reason to purchase from that site.

    salesmanship

    Doc



    "There comes a time in the affairs of a man when he has to take the bull by the tail and face the situation."
    - W C Fields (Tille and Gus)

  15. #15
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    I would suggest the correct terms are:

    Optimizing: Making the pages google-friendly by including titles, etc. Done by every good webmaster,

    Spamming: Trying to inflate pages by increasing keyword density and link popularity, etc. Done by every good businessman/woman.

    The difference from optimizing is that:
    a) boosting keyword density etc, doesn't add any value to the reader/consumer
    b) Google's ideology is that the web should sort itself out, ie pagerank. Inflating pages is clashing with that ideology.

    Hence, spamming is not about promoting a product, spamming is about inflating rankings without adding any more value. The affiliate view of spamming and the google view of spamming are not the same.

    Cheating: Deceiving Google, and by that also deceiving the surfer, by cloaking, hidden text, etc.


    I guess my point is, spamming is not bad, but don't complain when others do it too [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    In the long run pages that are content-rich and optimized - including spamming as defined above (but not cheating) - based on a *variety* of ranking criteria, will outperform pages optimized for a few criteria.

    A site mentioned recently, http://www.consolidate-your-debt.com/ , have boosted the keywords with some repeated text below of where the users would normally see when they loaded the page. That site could easily have swapped that text with a keyword-rich article. As it stands now it will drop out soon, but with an article they could have stayed at the top a long time.


    A sidenote: Since Google currently don't read javascript, it's very easy to do hidden text and not getting caught, that is until someone reports the site or Google decides to parse js.

    -- Less is more --

    [This message was edited by Cellophane on November 24, 2002 at 02:04 PM.]

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