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  1. #1
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    I have a couple of pages that do very well in Google for several search terms, although they don't rank as high as I'd like for the top search terms.

    So, I've been looking at the highly ranked pages to determine what they have that I don't. And I found a site that is in the top 10 for quite a few search terms, including some of the big ones for that topic, yet the site itself and the pages don't seem to be optimized at all.

    According to the Google toolbar, the site's home page has 243 backward links. So, I looked to see who was linking to them. Well, out of the 243 backward links, only ONE was from another site! All the others are internal pages. And, all of the pages on the site show a PR 5, no matter how deep they are from the main page.

    Any idea what's going on?

    Andy

    AFFILIATE MARKETING STANDARD: The site upon which the initial action to buy occurs is the site the commission is paid to. Period.

  2. #2
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    What you are descring here is fairly normal. Pages that are relevant to each other are linked to each other, and help each other on the PR front.

    All around the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel

  3. #3
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    I agree, its' perfectly normal - nothing wrong.
    Page rank isn't just about the number or even the quality of inbound links, it's also about what happens to that page rank once it hits your site's index page. If the page rank flows straight out again then you won't get much benefit from the links. Try to design your pages, navigation and site layout to hold page rank within your own pages and give the minimum away on your own outbound links. Any outbound link will leak page rank from your site so be ruthless and cut any unnecessary outbounds. Design your site so that outbound reciprocal links are on a page with lower page rank than the rest of the site. Just my 2c, wouldn't call myself a google expert.

  4. #4
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    His site has good PR.. as long as the internal pages are PR4 or higher they should show as backwards links... nothing out of the ordinary.

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  5. #5
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Page rank is also not only about backward links. It's also about page visits from folks who have a google bar with the page rank function turned on.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  6. #6
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLFH:
    Page rank is also not only about backward links. It's also about page visits from folks who have a google bar with the page rank function turned on.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Can you Explain pls....I dont think pagerank will be influenced by the visits of people with toolbar installed...

    The only toolbar effect i observed is google sometimes index pages (which are not linked from anywhere nor submitted to google) it find thro toolbar visits ....

    "The Future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their Dreams."

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador Joey's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Page rank is also not only about backward links. It's also about page visits from folks who have a google bar with the page rank function turned on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I think that's just the Alexa toolbar that ranks based on page visits. My understanding is that Google's ranking is mostly just based on backward links.

    Let me know if I'm wrong and I'll start visiting my own pages a whole lot more.

    -Joey

  8. #8
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The only toolbar effect i observed is google sometimes index pages (which are not linked from anywhere nor submitted to google) it find thro toolbar visits <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What page rank would these pages have if they are not linked to from anywhere?

  9. #9
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spacewar:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The only toolbar effect i observed is google sometimes index pages (which are not linked from anywhere nor submitted to google) it find thro toolbar visits <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What page rank would these pages have if they are not linked to from anywhere?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    These pages have 0 Pagerank so it will not show for competitive searches...

    "The Future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their Dreams."

  10. #10
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    Well, things still seem a bit off to me. All of the pages on the site have the same PR. I've never seen a 200-300+ page site with ALL pages getting the exact SAME PR?

    And only one other site linking to them? What about the link popularity theory? It certainly doesn't apply here.

    Very confusing

    Andy

    AFFILIATE MARKETING STANDARD: The site upon which the initial action to buy occurs is the site the commission is paid to. Period.

  11. #11
    ABW Ambassador Sam Bay's Avatar
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    My observation is Google use so many functions to determine page rank and search ranking, that it would be big underestimate to based them mostly on backward links.

  12. #12
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SamBay:
    My observation is Google use so many functions to determine page rank and search ranking, that it would be big underestimate to based them mostly on backward links.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    SamBay , Google in their press releases often Says that they are using 100 different Variables including PageRank in their Search Algorithum...

    But PageRank is based solely on 3 Factors ...the number of Backlinks ,the PR of the pages linking and the number of links in the linking pages.....no other factors involved



    "The Future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their Dreams."

    [This message was edited by rsgopi on January 07, 2003 at 08:23 AM.]

  13. #13
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Page Rank being different from SERP rank, of course.

    It's the most wonderful time of the year! ~From a "Golden Era" Christmas Song

  14. #14
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andy:
    Well, things still seem a bit off to me. All of the pages on the site have the same PR. I've never seen a 200-300+ page site with ALL pages getting the exact SAME PR?

    And only one other site linking to them? What about the link popularity theory? It certainly doesn't apply here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Toolbar PR is a rounded integer. The homepage may have PR 5,99, a deep page 5.01 (just examples)

    "Link popularity" is a buzzword. Every page on the net starts off with a default PR. A link on the page transfers that PR, the dampening factor subtracted, to the page linked at. Or (PR-dampening factor)/number of outgoing links. It's as simple as that.

    A page is a page whether it's located in Australia or on the same domain, there is no difference (not as I have seen evidence of) between links between pages located on the same domain and links between pages on different domains - when it comes to pagerank.

    Where links come from has nothing to do with PR, neither has the number of incoming links, except maybe for new sites which seems to get a small boost for birth. Again, this is when it comes to pagerank.

    -- Less is more --

    [This message was edited by Cellophane on January 07, 2003 at 09:20 PM.]

  15. #15
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rsgopi:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spacewar:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The only toolbar effect i observed is google sometimes index pages (which are not linked from anywhere nor submitted to google) it find thro toolbar visits <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What page rank would these pages have if they are not linked to from anywhere?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    These pages have 0 Pagerank so it will not show for competitive searches...

    "The Future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their Dreams."
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Page Rank for Google is 0, but Google starts guessing the Rank for the Google Toolbar if it does not have sufficient or no information about the page.

    The Google toolbar also has just a ranking from 1-10. That's not the internal Google ranking system. Google has to "round" or "estimate" the rank for the toolbar. I also suspect, that the rank for the toolbar is not calculated in realtime and does not consider 100% the ranking system of the google.com site itself. I can't proof it though.

    Remember: The Toolbar is a helpful tool, but not good for 100% precise measurements.

    Carsten

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  16. #16
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    OK, I understand that the pages might actually be ranked from 5.1-5.9, but show only as a "5" on the Google toolbar.

    But what I don't understand is why their "contact" page would have the same rank as their index page. It's buried, and it certainly doesn't have any keyword-rich text on it.

    It also seems that external high ranking pages must have something to do with overall PR, and internal pages should be given less consideration. If not, a site would only have to create tons of internal pages linking back to its index page for good PR.

    My index page and every page it links to have the same PR. Then, some of the pages that are linked from those pages also share the same PR, but many drop by 1.

    I've noticed a few pages on my site that are buried several layers from the index page, but they rank high because of so many incoming links from other sites.

    I know if I ever figure out why this has happened to this particular site, Google will just change again and everything will be different.

    Thanks for the info, I'm going to keep watching it to see if anything changes month to month.

    Andy

    AFFILIATE MARKETING STANDARD: The site upon which the initial action to buy occurs is the site the commission is paid to. Period.

  17. #17
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andy:
    ... why their "contact" page would have the same rank as their index page. It's buried, and it certainly doesn't have any keyword-rich text on it.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    PR can be distributed that way, both due to incoming links to deep pages, and planned distribution. See:
    http://www.iprcom.com/papers/pagerank/

    Keywords on a page does not affect pagerank. But it's not uncommon for contact pages to have great PR, as they often are linked to from all other pages.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It also seems that external high ranking pages must have something to do with overall PR, and internal pages should be given less consideration.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Never seen any evidence of this, and it goes against the idea of Google's Pagerank. But I would suspect markymark is the right person to elaborate on this.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If not, a site would only have to create tons of internal pages linking back to its index page for good PR.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, that works to some extent, see the link above

    -- Less is more --

  18. #18
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    Pay less attention to page rank (PR) and more attention to optimizing your pages for SERP, you will be further ahead in the game. The PR is only a very small factor in getting targetted traffic to your site. Prime taffic from SE's come to sites that have the right keywords in their title, description, and throughout the page. Of course this should not be over done. But what is over done. I receive search results shoppers to pages that may have one of the keywords displayed as many as 20 times.
    I try to keep that figure low but sometimes that just is not possible.

    Also, google and the other SE's do not just look for keywords in the title and description.
    I have received many 1 to 10 placements where the keywords were only in lower text of the page.

    The main issue is to be concerned mostly with your SERP.

    Gene
    TCS

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