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Thread: Caught in the Act, another affiliate stealing from their Peers

  1. #1
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Thank you nyfalcon and Mrs B for tracking down another leach sucking the life blood from honest partners, Special thanks to nyfalcon for finding this one and Mrs B for doing to the Camcorder shoot

    Cease and desist sent, if they persist, terminated with loss of ALL revenue, which I'm going to give to nyfalcon and Mrs B

    If they do not follow up on the cease and desist I will publish their domain info. They have til Friday.

    Cheers

    Chris


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  2. #2
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    No you got that all wrong Thank You for your swift action in this matter. I am just a pawn that saw something wrong you can use my url here if you want at this point my site has to be redone

    Mrs B did all the work and deserves the credit!!!

  3. #3
    Affiliate Miester my2cents's Avatar
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    FINALLY!!

    An AM with "Huevos"

    It's about time...cyber thieves lose their commision to the slueth who discovered their theivery... and exposed them for what they are!

    YES, I DO THINK A BOUNTY SHOULD BE PAID IF THEY DONT STRAITGHEN UP AND ABIDE BY THE RULES....

    please excuse my shouting... this is a very sore spot with me...


    Joe

    And, that's the bottom line because it's my2cents!

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador
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    Parasites are thieves. What are you going to do about it?

  5. #5
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Good news, or maybe bad news for NY and Mrs B, the partner has agreed to remove 180 targeting. He replied very swiftly and I am pleased that he reacted in a positive manner.

    Education is always the key.

    Naturally we'll keep an eye on him

    Cheers

    Chris


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  6. #6
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    IMO it's definately bad news.

    Do you really expect knowledagable persons to continue investing their time and energies in exposing foul play when they are clearly exposed and you don't even give offenders what can be considered a slap on the hand?

    These kinds of "penalties" are not the kind that will restrict other affiliates from doing the same thing and sets a terrible precident IMO - update your terms and stop the BS.

    Affiliates - "Sign up now" because people knowledgable enough and spending time to expose you are dropping like flies.

    ** Have you asked for change? **

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    So many 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances. When people see that they get chance after chance, it won't stop others from being crooked.
    Time to start setting examples and dropping them off the bat.

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador mousejockey's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Poon and Connie.
    A slap on the wrist is a weak deterrent to others contemplating similar actions.

    It's not our call, but when does the 'Do Not Pass Go - Go Straight To Jail' card come into play.
    IMHO, the right message would be, you don't play the game straight, you forfeit commissions - end of story.

  9. #9
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    I'd also like to know what the threshold is for a bad affiliate to truly pay the price for what they've done. I can understand an honest mistake, or confusion about a particular merchant's policies, but when an affiliate is quite obviously taking advantage of other affiliates by targeting their sites, they should know better.

    If you're old enough to know the difference between right and wrong, you should know that this is wrong. Personally, I think merchants need to raise the bar, and the penalty for being caught needs to be termination from their program. Permanently. And they forfeit their commissions.

    The fact is, this affiliate has taken (stolen) money from other affiliates. Are they going to give it back and pay a penalty for their evil deeds?

    Andy

    _______________
    <font color="red">Call the Exterminators! We've Got PARASITES!</font>

  10. #10
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andy:
    The fact is, this affiliate has taken (stolen) money from other affiliates. Are they going to give it back and pay a penalty for their evil deeds?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree.

    Ebudae

    If you understand, things are just as they are...
    if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  11. #11
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    I am so sick of this! Sure why not give them another chance? Let them know they can get away with it without suffering any penalites! Pure BS! Just yesterday 180 popped on my site again and overwrote the cookie, sorry but it wasn't captured by a screen shot! Networks with their phoney COC, and AM's who allow this stuff to happen are to blame as far as I am concerned.
    Cazzie

    Fight Back! Parasite Free In 2004!

  12. #12
    Merchant Linda's Avatar
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    Chris, I'm just a little confused. On January 8, you posted this thread right here in your forum - How to get Terminated without Payment.
    http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...4&m=3206060835

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you are caught making use of a third party pop up/under/exit/contextual ad software to target the domain of ANY WSO managed site OR the domains/sites of any partners working with WSO managed merchants then you will be terminated on the spot without payment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is effective as of January 9th 2004<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What makes this particular affiliate special and given 4 days to get clean without so much as a slap on the wrist?

  13. #13
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    This is what makes ABW such a fun place and makes being visible in taking action really worth the effort.

    Lets see, how many of you drop a merchant who is Parastic...none of you, I already ran that thread and and only one person could honestly say this is so.

    EDUCATION, if a merchant who is parasitic drops the parasites do you turn round and say "HA Tough, we're not signing up anyway!" , no you don't, so what I see here is set of double standards that you would like me to conform to...correct?

    Second, EDUCATION, now whether the affiliate was truthful or not in their ignorance of parasitic marketing, You and I will never ever know. BUT the as I, Believed we all know, you don't educate and convert people by hacking off their heads? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

    Third, if I cut him off, will that stop him from using 180...no it won't, he will continue to use, continue to target your sites and simply promote a different merchant, correct me if I am wrong.

    So we have two choices, educate or cut, educate leaves us with one more person who understands and can tell other people, cut just leaves all of our sites as exposed as befoe to the affiliate, who will probably target us twice as much, just to be spiteful.

    And of course wouldn't it be fun if WhenU and Ebates saw that they could get people removed from Mondera by simply running a Pop Up Add for your site over someone elses, which they have the ability to do, should I simply cut you off, or would you like the chance to find out what is going on?

    IF a person fails to listen, decides that they don't want to be educated then I'll apply the terms of the agreement.

    Your replies as posted above make me wonder about the wisdom in making posts to thank people for tracking down people.

    Feedback is good but I think we should look at the big picture before jumping to conclusions about how fast the axe should fall.

    The affiliate has been given to Friday 6pm my time to get things cleared up, if at that time it's not then he's history.

    Thanks

    Chris


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  14. #14
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    It is a catch 22 Chris. The determining factor is this affiliate actually contracted and paid for the service to hijack his fellow affiliates commissions. Bad enough that 600 major brand or recognized merchant's managed by 3rd party AM firms automatically approves every BHO that comes down the pike, we now have rogue BHO operations contacting and catering to sleezeball (already successful) affiliates seeking to slide under the radar and specifically whack ABWer sites.

    180Solutions allows them to pick specific URLs to pop on. This is one for the network's legal teams to team up with honest merchants ,like you, to class action sue this outfit. I informed some cybercrime units today to monitor and identify the BHO's IP#s to see if they are stuffing their crapolla into the open backdoors left in the wake of the new e-mail virus like common looters that they are...

    Impact on 2500 systems scanning for a freebie opening 24/7 is horrendious. http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/...Ndoomed_1.html

    You have a lot more faith then me that any affiliate, who sought out 180Solutions, isn't also a spammer and will change their spots on a 2nd chance. You can risk a bet that OptinRealBig has affiliate accounts and contracts with 18Solutions to run parasitewarez to compliment their porn and e-mail spam offerings.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

    [This message was edited by EcomCity.com on January 28, 2004 at 09:46 PM.]

    [This message was edited by EcomCity.com on January 28, 2004 at 09:49 PM.]

  15. #15
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Yup, I've always been looking for a good catch 22 and I think we've found it here, damned if you don't damned if you do, should have kept my mouth shut till Friday and then no one would have been any wiser , but I guess that's not me

    He might indeed clean up by Friday, might even think he'll get paid this month and roll back into 180 on Feb 1...but I'll be holding over his payment through Valentines

    Cheers

    Chris


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  16. #16
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    Chris
    I understand where you are coming from and wanting to be fair. Evidently this problem grows larger by the day, and I can understand people commenting to drop this person. I have to say I feel the same way. I know for a fact
    that my sites are being targeted daily by 180 solutions and affiliates using their program as well ( When the time is right and I have the proper proof I will name them) and unless the networks and merchants (more so the networks) do something about it, it's going to get worse. We can't police the internet every day looking for this type of behavior so where does it end? How do we stop it? Do we hire someone to download all these corrupt programs and have them sit and check everyones links? Complaints forwarded with screen shots to CJ go nowhere. How can these types of programs be compliant with the COC knowing that they are overwriting
    cookies? 180 solutions is NOT compliant therfore anyone using ncase is noncompliant also! This is not just a case of popping ads on your site it is overwritng!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Third, if I cut him off, will that stop him from using 180...no it won't, he will continue to use, continue to target your sites and simply promote a different merchant, correct me if I am wrong." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    You are correct in that statement, however, how would you ever know that he just changed his targeting keywords to stay in your program but continues doing it with other merchants and not have stopped using ncase? Catch 22?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "And of course wouldn't it be fun if WhenU and Ebates saw that they could get people removed from Mondera by simply running a Pop Up Add for your site over someone elses, which they have the ability to do, should I simply cut
    you off, or would you like the chance to find out what is going on? " <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A truly frightening thing and yes I would like the chance to find out, but that type of thing would not surprise me at all and I am surprised that they are not targeting people already.

    Yes I do appreciate the AM's who drop arasites, I am in the process of dropping merchants constantly as soon as I find replacements for them. My stats tell me who the honest merchants are and they perform well in most cases and allow me to make an honest living. I applaud those AM's that take a stance on this issue. I think the real problem is no one really knows how to handle this.

    So whats the answer? It keeps going back to the networks and their COC and until they take a stand it will continue but apparently CJ and the others are not going to do this. Money Talks!
    So I ask again what's the answer? Suffer with the stealing and if we don't like it then quit affiliate marketing or start cheating like these people are doing?

    Cazzie

    Fight Back! Parasite Free In 2004!

  17. #17
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yup, I've always been looking for a good catch 22 and I think we've found it here, damned if you don't damned if you do, should have kept my mouth shut till Friday and then no one would have been any wiser , but I guess that's not me <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    NO you did the right thing! The more awareness the more action.
    Cazzie

    Fight Back! Parasite Free In 2004!

  18. #18
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Thanks Cazzie, I'm glad that we can all site back and see things from all angles, on the bright side, 180 is being reviewed by LS, I'm expecting an update next week. Though that would still not resolve the case of "Peer Parasites". (there's a cool name for them )

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You are correct in that statement, however, how would you ever know that he just changed his targeting keywords to stay in your program but continues doing it with other merchants and not have stopped using ncase? Catch 22? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    yes he could, which in one respect is why I'm lucky to have multiple merchants so I can enforce this across all merchants we work with, "hit Mondera and be cut from 10 other programs" . Maybe what is needed is a "Merchants against Parasites" Association. That supports each other across these kind of issues, if they targeted Szul for example, Mondera would drop them. Of course this means you end up with two very distinct camps "merchants for" and "merchants against".... is that a bad thing I wonder?

    Ultimately this still leaves me believing education is the only solution.

    Cheers

    Chris


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  19. #19
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Chris your a goodman and in no way does this impact your programs. You might contact Ms.B (love that La. gal) and hire her to monitor BHO's showing any Modera or Web Studio-1 Solutions programs for BHO popups, or assign a staff member to the task.

    I make this commitment and hope others here follow suit. Any merchant who appears on the 3 known rogue BHO networks operating outside the network's scrutney Gator/WhenU/180Solutions will be yanked from my sites and all those of my clients with or without notice. No exceptions as they all perform drive-by installs and trash our shoppers systems while openly stealing commissions.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  20. #20
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Basically corp policy here bans the installation of all file sharing and spyware as they damage the integrity of the network, I'll have to look at setting up a stand alone machine outside the network which we can load with the scum.

    Mrs B has been a great help already with 180 and others and I hope the hard work she has done will pay off with LS. I shall certainly be sharing out confiscated revenue to those partners that help us when education fails.

    Cheers

    Chris


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  21. #21
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Chris stated: "Maybe what is needed is a "Merchants against Parasites" Association. That supports each other across these kind of issues, if they targeted Szul for example, Mondera would drop them. Of course this means you end up with two very distinct camps "merchants for" and "merchants against".... is that a bad thing I wonder?"

    No Chris this is the perfect senerio if put out in the open. Right now the black-White & Gray flag is being flown atop the networks headquarters. The damn gray part is what is killing all honest ethical affiliates. The Good guy "White" merchants are givin that position because of their AM's sales attitudes and ethics. None begrudge their competition getting their fair share.

    The Black merchants practice all the diversion tactics, have cart on/off switches, run cookie setting e-mail spam campaigns, always pay late, and seek out BHO parasites. The majority of these are run by the professional AM firms operating as fronts for the IAB/DMA members.

    The Gray merchants are the Dupers (affiliates posing as merchants), who like the sleezebag affiliates, will do anything for a buck. They play all affiliates as dupes and the only thing they respect is the outer limits of greed driven ebiz plans.

    Forming a collective of merchant AM's boycotting or dropping known sleezeball affiliates or Dupers is the perfect message. The real merchant's management hearing their AM's are lazy shortcut sleezeballs will fire them. So be it as the wholesale firing of the 3rd party affiliate management firms running Black & Gray programs won't hurt their real business one IOTA.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  22. #22
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Chris:

    Maybe what is needed is a "Merchants against Parasites" Association. That supports each other across these kind of issues, if they targeted Szul for example, Mondera would drop them. Of course this means you end up with two very distinct camps "merchants for" and "merchants against".... is that a bad thing I wonder?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That is exactally what is needed.

    As I posted in the thread about hijacked banners - it is time for the merchants to step up to the plate and start making some NOISE!!!!!!



    Ebudae

    If you understand, things are just as they are...
    if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  23. #23
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Where did that thread go by the way, I lost it in the rush this week?

  24. #24
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
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    Here ya go!

    http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...9&m=7796053355



    Ebudae

    If you understand, things are just as they are...
    if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  25. #25
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    I've asked all our partners to take a look and offer their thoughts

    Cheers

    Chris


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