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Thread: More Sites removed for Commission Cookie Stuffing

  1. #1
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Hi All

    The following will removed from the Mondera program today (probably done by the time most people read this) and will be removed from the other WSO managed merchants this week too

    dailyedeals
    edealinfo

    Both have been top 20 Mondera earners at various times over the past couple of years.

    Both reported to us, for checking up, by an ABW member who wishes to remain anonymous.

    Both sites opted not to reply to emails requesting their support in checking how they created cookies, I am therefore forced to remove them until such time as they can correct their system of creating commission cookies. I take no pleasure in doing this, education and co-operation across all partners is my number one aim.

    If other merchants you work with are taking similar action I would recommend you ask them to review these sites.

    Thank you

    Chris


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  2. #2
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    Chris - I don't follow you.
    You should be happy to remove these crooks from your program.
    Don't think about them, but about us, your affiliates. We have been robbed from legitimate earnings. What have you lost, nothing but your credibility. The sales are still yours.
    You sounds like, as soon as they answer you and remove the auto setting of cookies for Mondera, they'll be back in business. If you do that, don't forget to credit the proper affiliates for the stolen commissions.

    If it's too hard for you, you can ask for the help of Mr Messer. He was so proud to introduce them as Linkshare top affiliates.
    3) eDealinfo.com
    19) dailyedeals.com
    I'm sure Linkshare is working on a way to credit us back our commissions.
    I know I lost money and I want it back.

    It's not the big that eat the small... it's the fast that eat the slow. Jennings & Haughton

  3. #3
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Hi Zeus

    I always prefer that I can talk to people and resolve issues, or even talk to people and then take action, than have to take action where no reply has been received.

    I want to be sure that I have done my best to resolve an issue before we take action.

    Cheers

    Chris


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    <FONT COLOR=red size="1"> A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope </font></font>

  4. #4
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    Chris, I'm sure you want to be fair with all parties involved and do a good job. Sure it's frustrating to deactivate affiliates. I'm just afraid you're sending the wrong signal.

    It's not the big that eat the small... it's the fast that eat the slow. Jennings & Haughton

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    I will guarantee you that the affiliates doing that know it is sneaky, they aren't accidentially doing something they aren't supposed to be doing.

    The problem we still have is that no network has stood up yet and said that this is for sure wrong to them.

    When you have just a few merchants putting their foot down, but the majority of them ignoring it or saying it is ok to them this is gonna continue.

  6. #6
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I will guarantee you that the affiliates doing that know it is sneaky <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No doubt true, but unfortunatelty for most of our clients I can't work on that basis, I need to give the site owners the benefit of the doubt. Second time round of course is a different kettle of fish.

    As we have only now started updating our T&C for all Merchants, some of which we didn't write in the first place, it again is easy for some one to say , doesn't violate your T&C (or rather didn't violate)

    Following a thread up on the other forums it seems that everyone also dissagrees on whether the LS, BF, CJ etc terms make it a violation to do so or not.... as Connie says, no one Network has made a clear cust statement that leaves nothing to the imagination....yet.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm just afraid you're sending the wrong signal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    The wrong signal, I would have thought/hoped , would be to do nothing, but again I fall foul of the "do something, say something, get nailed for it" clause

    Or as was put to me in a PM "....under the magnifying glass on a hot summers day"

    Cheers

    Chris


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    <FONT COLOR=red size="1"> A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope </font></font>

  7. #7
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Here's the situation Chris finds himself facing. ABWers and outside affiliates have purposely devised ways to rape is merchant's pocketbooks without offering and real value beyond blindly stuffing cookies on shoppers systems.

    He's just touching on the tip of the iceberg revealing some so called good affiliates who have abandon value-added reselling and resorting to using SEM/PPCSE tricks to auto set cookies.

    I applaud his OUTING for the benefit of all AM's these wanks. Those 2 domains are just a few these guys control and they're the supposed legit fronts.... The hidden one's are 100% SE spam sites targeting trademarks/product keywords with blind cookie stuffing routines.

    I tried a technique over the last 3 days for 2 of my ecommerce clients using Overture and Adwords. I was able to not only spoof both these PPCSE's into showing Ads on their prime brand trademarks and copywrited search terms, but also show the Ad URL belonging to the merchant ....but actually place by an affiliate site to set a cookie. Some of the spoofed trademarked ads set multiple cookies for their competitors at the same time if linked to a site page with auto re-direct.

    The actual merchant was unable to tell from the Google- Yahoo -MSN PPCSE Ads if it was their click Ad campaign or one run by their AM or an affiliate.

    Basically I could set up a slew of cheap domains with different affiliate accounts as 5 page cloned directory sites with hundreds of merchants. I can trick the major and minor PPCSE's into displaying all the most popular keyword product lookups spoofing the shopper into thinking I was Walmart.com -Dell.com -TigerDirect.com -1-800 Flowers -Landsend.com -Surpluscomputers.com -Mondera.com -JCwhitney.com etc etc. All displayed Ads identified me as the actual merchant with the merchants URL ...with hidden affiliate cookie setting auto redirect....

    I'd never have to build another page in my life if I took the ABW AM's list of popular keywords they pass out like candy and spoof the PPCSE's into display my as as merchant ZYZ. Not even the actual merchant could tell the difference if I was using their URL and name.

    How many AM's actually are using the merchants SEO/SEM account to pad their own pockets without paying a single click fee?? ...

    Hell with my clean Ecomcity site I could work this plan on 10 lame domains and clear 50K per month and be a hero at ABW rather then a bashing target.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    "Payment is one option that isn't negotiable. Merchants require it for purchases ...SO DO WE."

  8. #8
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Here's the situation Chris finds himself facing. ABWers and outside affiliates have purposely devised ways to rape is merchant's pocketbooks without offering and real value beyond blindly stuffing cookies on shoppers systems.

    He's just touching on the tip of the iceberg revealing some so called good affiliates who have abandon value-added reselling and resorting to using SEM/PPCSE tricks to auto set cookies.

    I applaud his OUTING for the benefit of all AM's these wanks. Those 2 domains are just a few these guys control and they're the supposed legit fronts.... The hidden one's are 100% SE spam sites targeting trademarks/product keywords with blind cookie stuffing routines.

    I tried a technique over the last 3 days for 2 of my ecommerce clients using Overture and Adwords. I was able to not only spoof both these PPCSE's into showing Ads on their prime brand trademarks and copywrited search terms, but also show the Ad URL belonging to the merchant ....but actually place by an affiliate site to set a cookie. Some of the spoofed trademarked ads set multiple cookies for their competitors at the same time if linked to a site page with auto re-direct.

    The actual merchant was unable to tell from the Google- Yahoo -MSN PPCSE Ads if it was their click Ad campaign or one run by their AM or an affiliate.

    Basically I could set up a slew of cheap domains with different affiliate accounts as 5 page cloned directory sites with hundreds of merchants. I can trick the major and minor PPCSE's into displaying all the most popular keyword product lookups spoofing the shopper into thinking I was Walmart.com -Dell.com -TigerDirect.com -1-800 Flowers -Landsend.com -Surpluscomputers.com -Mondera.com -JCwhitney.com etc etc. All displayed Ads identified me as the actual merchant with the merchants URL ...with hidden affiliate cookie setting auto redirect....

    I'd never have to build another page in my life if I took the ABW AM's list of popular keywords they pass out like candy and spoof the PPCSE's into display my as as merchant ZYZ. Not even the actual merchant could tell the difference if I was using their URL and name.

    How many AM's actually are using the merchants SEO/SEM account to pad their own pockets without paying a single click fee?? ...

    Hell with my clean Ecomcity site I could work this plan on 10 lame domains and clear 50K per month and be a hero power player at ABW rather then a bashing target.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    "Payment is one option that isn't negotiable. Merchants require it for purchases ...SO DO WE."

  9. #9
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Here's the situation Chris finds himself facing. ABWers and outside affiliates have purposely devised ways to rape is merchant's pocketbooks without offering and real value beyond blindly stuffing cookies on shoppers systems.

    He's just touching on the tip of the iceberg revealing some so called good affiliates who have abandon value-added reselling and resorting to using SEM/PPCSE tricks to auto set cookies.

    I applaud his OUTING for the benefit of all AM's these wanks. Those 2 domains are just a few these guys control and they're the supposed legit fronts.... The hidden one's are 100% SE spam sites targeting trademarks/product keywords with blind cookie stuffing routines.

    I tried a technique over the last 3 days for 2 of my ecommerce clients using Overture and Adwords. I was able to not only spoof both these PPCSE's into showing Ads on their prime brand trademarks and copywrited search terms, but also show the Ad URL belonging to the merchant ....but actually place by an affiliate site to set a cookie. Some of the spoofed trademarked ads set multiple cookies for their competitors at the same time if linked to a site page with auto re-direct.

    The actual merchant was unable to tell from the Google- Yahoo -MSN PPCSE Ads if it was their click Ad campaign or one run by their AM or an affiliate.

    Basically I could set up a slew of cheap domains with different affiliate accounts as 5 page cloned directory sites with hundreds of merchants. I can trick the major and minor PPCSE's into displaying all the most popular keyword product lookups spoofing the shopper into thinking I was Walmart.com -Dell.com -TigerDirect.com -1-800 Flowers -Landsend.com -Surpluscomputers.com -Mondera.com -JCwhitney.com etc etc. All displayed Ads identified me as the actual merchant with the merchants URL ...with hidden affiliate cookie setting auto redirect....

    I'd never have to build another page in my life if I took the ABW AM's list of popular keywords they pass out like candy and spoof the PPCSE's into display my as as merchant ZYZ. Not even the actual merchant could tell the difference if I was using their URL and name.

    How many AM's actually are using the merchants SEO/SEM account to pad their own pockets without paying a single click fee?? ...

    Hell with my clean Ecomcity site I could work this plan on 10 lame domains and clear 50K per month and be a hero power player at ABW rather then a bashing target.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    "Payment is one option that isn't negotiable. Merchants require it for purchases ...SO DO WE."

  10. #10
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Chris - The wrong signal, I would have thought/hoped , would be to do nothing, but again I fall foul of the "do something, say something, get nailed for it" clause
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    We're all very pleased of your action, Chis. But, it's just a first step, just a little step. Immediate Deactivation with no second chance is the only answer to stop these crooks. They have been outed and found guilty. Now, it's time to act.

    It's not the big that eat the small... it's the fast that eat the slow. Jennings & Haughton

  11. #11
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Hey Chris is eDealinfo.com one of those sites owned by the Russian Mofia. They now pay a fee to domains by proxie to hide Whois info. Give away is the ciHost.com hosting service who run russian spam services and dedicated hosting for the tricks for clicks crew...

    sample... www.fedscope.com
    descr: Tatyana Ivanova
    Tatyana Ivanova
    Prospekt Pobedy 15-25
    Ulan-Ude, Buryatia, RU
    admin-c: IL260784
    tech-c: IL260784
    zone-c: IL260784
    nserver: ns.cihost.com
    nserver: ns2.cihost.com
    changed: server@domainthenet.com 20040113
    source: RADB

    person: Tatyana Ivanova
    address: Tatyana Ivanova
    address: Prospekt Pobedy 15-25
    address: Ulan-Ude
    address: Buryatia, 670017, RU
    phone: 73012216465
    e-mail: ti38119@hotmail.com
    nic-hdl: IL260784
    mnt-by: MAINT-DTN
    changed: server@domainthenet.com 20040113
    source: RADB

    Mike & Charlie ...

    "Payment is one option that isn't negotiable. Merchants require it for purchases ...SO DO WE."

  12. #12
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Hi Mike

    No idea to be honest Mike I Didn't check the domain info at all.

    Zeus...Tiny Steps before giant steps, and even then some of the Tiny steps taken by ABW Merchants are huge steps compared to what the majority are doing

    Cheers

    Chris


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  13. #13
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    I don't want to speak for Chris, but I think he's more disappointed that the education didn't work than he is over losing the affiliates. His goal in trying to educate the affiliates first is to get them to stop. I agree with Connie that they probably won't. They know exactly what they're doing and very few will change. I think Chris will eventually come to this realization, too, but time will tell.

    In any event, I applaud Chris' stand and efforts on this issue.

    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com

  14. #14
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    Chris once again im happy to see you take action! wish every am could figure out whats right and wrong keep up good work
    vinny

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  15. #15
    Full Member dak142's Avatar
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    I read this entire thread, and I sort of understand what happened but I am not sure if I am correct. Being a new to the scene and all, alot of the terminology used was greek to me. Does anyone have an alternate explanation that a newbie can understand?

    www.Secret-Deals.Com

  16. #16
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Hi Dak

    My pleasure, in laymans terms, some sites are creating commission cookies on a consumers computer without first getting a consumer to click on a real link.

    This can do one of several things
    a - Create a cookie when none was requested, therefore costing the merchant money in commissions a later date when none should have been paid.

    b - Overwrite someone elses commission cookie that had been created bt a REAL click.

    c - Use software to the do the same

    Ultimately it means a person is getting commission for sales they didn't create.

    Hope that helps, I'm sure someone else can put it better than me

    Cheers

    Chris


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  17. #17
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    OUT the bastards ...and off with their heads... Queen Lizy XVXIII

    Mike & Charlie ...

    "Payment is one option that isn't negotiable. Merchants require it for purchases ...SO DO WE."

  18. #18
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    Education is not what is needed here.

    Anybody doing this knows EXACTLY what he or she is doing, you don't innocently stumble into auto-setting cookies.

    I guess Chris' problem is that outing people is kind of tricky if your TOS in the past didn't clearly prohibit certain types of activity.

    So he has to handle this his own way. Which he is doing.


  19. #19
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    IFRAMES, Hidden links, software I 100% agree.

    Pop Ups...no, MANY people put pop ups on their site, they just want to send people to Mondera and hope they buy, Some from totally unrelated pages, others from targeted pages. Such pop ups have long been considered 'okay' for mainstream/CPM advertising, so no one can tell me that Joe Smith of Smithyfamily.com who has a pop up opening Mondera in a full browser window knows that he is doing something wrong until he is told he is.

    IFRAMES/Software...certainly...off with their heads!

    Cheers

    Chris


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  20. #20
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    I agree 100%, Chris. There's a huge distinction there.

    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com

  21. #21
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    That's interesting.

    I've only been involved in aff marketing for a year, but it NEVER occured to me to pop up a page that did not belong to me.

    It seems pretty clear-cut to me, but I have no experience of CPM...

  22. #22
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    During the peak CPM years I believe just about anything was okay

    So just so everyone is clear here is the WSO approach, I'm sure I have missed something and no doubt some one will be kind enough to remind me so I can edit and add :

    <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
    <LI>IFRAMES - will be removed on the spot.

    <LI>Software/ToolBars/Browser Plugins etc (General Parasites) - Should never have been approved in the first place and will be removed on the spot.

    <LI>Hidden Commission Tracking Cookie Setting - will be removed on the spot

    <LI>Full Page Pop Ups/Unders - Educated.. we hope.

    <LI>Other Pop Ups/Unders (i.e. Anything that fails to adequately allow a user to browse the loaded site in the pop up) - will be removed on the spot.

    <LI>Off screen browser sessions/pop ups - will be removed on the spot.[/list]

    NOTE : Where WSO takes over the management of an existing program, then action can not be taken until a new T&C has been issued and all present partners of such a program given time to review the T&C and update their sites.

    I am sure this is not what everyone wants to see, but I believe it is the right approach.

    Cheers

    Chris


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  23. #23
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    Chris, thank you.
    There's not much to add. This is right to the point. An easy guideline for others to follow.

    It's not the big that eat the small... it's the fast that eat the slow. Jennings & Haughton

  24. #24
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Clear concise terms statements leave no wiggleroom. Congrats on shortening the original down to this version. Basically ALL merchants should not allow affiliate commission payments for autosetting tracking cookies without a physical click. Scary senerio is if Networksolutions, high traffic portals and all the SE used this practice to autoset 30 million fresh merchant cookies per hour.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    "Payment is one option that isn't negotiable. Merchants require it for purchases ...SO DO WE."

  25. #25
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    The T&C will still have the long version of it for legal spiel etc, but this serves as a nice easy to follow guidelines for our own team and that we can put in emails and support sites

    very glad that it's nailed down

    Cheers

    Chris


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    <FONT COLOR=red size="1"> A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope </font></font>

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