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  1. #1
    ABW Ambassador
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    Time to do some shopping!

    Lots of gifts to get! Don't forget anybody!

    Don't forget to install Ebates handy-dandy app on your machine first!

    And don't forget to use your own affiliate links!

    Affiliate link overwritten? Make a purchase!

    Didn't get commission credit for the purchase that was made through your affiliate link? Well, then present your sale ID#, invoice#, or whatever to the merchant and EXPRESS INDIGNATION!

    If enough of us do this, the Network folks will soon have fires lit under their heels.

    All around the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel

  2. #2
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    That's an excellent idea, for even better reasons than expressing indignation to a merchant.

    This would be a way to document a specific, identifiable instance of HARM being done -- and that would be much stronger evidence to present to legal authories than just (just!) screenshots of referral links being overwritten.

    Because the latest shenanigans involve some randomness, it might take several separate purchases to capture a commission-hijacking episode. This could make it difficult for an individual to document wrongdoing, but if there were a bunch of people who'd be willing to co-ordinate some purchases for this purpose (and, presumably, to get some things they were going to get anyhow) it would boost our odds of gaining some new evidence.

    How best could that be achieved? Us Macintosh users are out of the loop here, otherwise I'd lead the charge.

    Elisabeth Archambault

  3. #3
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    26 shopping days left til Xmas!

    Shop, shop, shop!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    All around the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel

  4. #4
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Not to cut in on the dance here but with a zero refferer just how does anyone expect to prove that it was your affiliate link?

    I really think people need to understand the technologies more before they claim (C) infringements and tell all to buy (no I'm not being a but ... just being effective!).

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
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  5. #5
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    Haiko, if someone orders something they will receive comfirmation and a transaction number which can be cross-checked against their own commission accounts. If the commission on the order does not show up properly, the affiliate would have a case that could be investigated to see where the commission DID go. If the transaction was found to be credited to a parasite's account, then the affiliate has a specific, identifiable instance of interception and harm to complain about, both to the merchant and to the law.

    There's growing evidence about the *potential* for harm, and also the *probability* of harm. We know how several varieties of theft can happen, and lots of people have general statistics to suggest (but not prove) that they are indeed happening. That is not enough to convince either a civil or criminal court to impose penalties. Some evidence of *actual* harm will be needed -- specific, identifiable instances that are thoroughly documented.

    People's own Christmas shopping could be a significant chance to identify some specific cases of commissions hijacking -- IF they think to set up test conditions before they purchase.

  6. #6
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Elisabeth,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Haiko, if someone orders something they will receive confirmation and a transaction number which can be cross-checked against their own commission accounts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Prove to me that it was your affiliate link that the sale originated on! There is NO FREAKING WAY anyone can! There is a zero referer! - I said that is how the technology works, why in the world do YOU, Deelz, Ice or anyone want to lead anyone into court with hopes based on malarkey?!?!?!?!

    I SWEAR am not flaming anyone but for months and at the cost of 63 members I am really F'in sick and tired of the people who think they understand how the technologies work and think they have (C) claims!

    If *YOU* are going into battle .... you just lost your head within ten minutes, I, however, with planing, ACTIONS and real recourses intend to win!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  7. #7
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    Haiko, I don't understand what you're saying or why you're saying it.

    What do copyrights have to do with Deelz's idea?

  8. #8
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buckworks.com:
    Haiko, I don't understand what you're saying or why you're saying it.

    What do copyrights have to do with Deelz's idea?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    What I am saying is that members who post self purchase information will do shoot against Parasites!

    Copyright claims are, also, part and parcel to the affiliate ignorance in attacking the parasiteware problem, I saw you post more of the affiliate (C) malarkey ... and it was just the other day.


    The technology, as I tried to explain during the last flaming season, does NOT work on affiliate sites, and as such any affiliate who buys on thier own link will have ZERO proof of pilferage as the parasites have a ZERO referrer!

    It is the affiliates word against a co doing what is it? 5-6MM a month? Yeah ok ... have fun loosing!

    Effective and productive posts and actions are what is needed, not more pie in the sky!

    Re: WhenU there are a few who responded to that and I will post and attack from that side.

    Re: gator and eBates, my position is clear as is my plan of attack!

    I'll shut up for now ... we will all see ... don't divide and conquer the wrong group!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  9. #9
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Prove to me that it was your affiliate link that the sale originated on! There is NO FREAKING WAY anyone can! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, there is a way, Haiko. I won't post it out here in the open though.

    Think about it, and it will come to you, it's pretty simple.

    Also, nothing was said about copyright infringement or "dragging anybody into court" (yet [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]) READ THE POST!!!

    How many merchants have discontinued their association with ebates as a result of verbal complaints made here?

    How many will do the same, or perhaps EVEN MORE [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] when they start getting complaints of this particular nature from their affiliates?

    BTW - Where Ice comes into the fray I do not know. I myself have not heard from her in at least a month.

    All around the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel

    [This message was edited by 14K_Deelz on November 30, 2002 at 05:34 AM.]

  10. #10
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be easier for the networks to just refuse to pay one dime to any BHO parasite for Nov-Dec sales, til those guys can prove the sale originated from their own links. The Existing TOS requires this as a term for payment.

    The parasites then would be forced to take the networks to court with the only recourse being they might get paid commission for the average sales amount recorded by the merchants on their proven domain clicks based upon conversion ratio. Zero referrals (impressions/clicks) = ZERO commissions. The PPA terms apply for non-payment just like the script kiddies fudging PPC clicks didn't get paid for breaking the rules. Nice Christmas bonus for CJ -BF and LS and perfectly legal.

    WebMaster Mike

  11. #11
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Deelz and Elisabeth,

    FWIW, I did that exact thing (making the purchase from my link, having the receipt and transaction number, checking my stats, etc) during the buyersport incidence. I even did screenshots of every click starting from my site until the receipt page from the merchant. I was last ditching in an effort to convince a merchant that my rightful commission (eg since it originated from my affiliate link) had been "stolen" from me. All information my sent to the merchant. I was told that what I had sent did not *prove* any wrong doing by buyersport and they continued to make requests for Proof.
    I posted about this during the last battle. My pleas of "then where is my commission for that sale" went completely unanwered. The impression I got was that the reasoning was that I made the choice to get a rebate from buyersport (cough) instead of the commission. Any other consumer has the right to get a rebate/reward and who are we do dictate to the consumer that they can't.

    I'm just saying this to get out there what the hurdle will be with that type of info. Its even harder to track in the case of ebates because of the way ebates works. You can't track each step of the clickstream and sale as easily.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  12. #12
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and at the cost of 63 members <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You haven't been cost 63 members just because those members also post on another board. I observe that most of them post on multiple boards.

    The only ones you lost were the ones you decided to boot for what ever reason. If you regret that loss, simply invite them back. I don't know if they will come back but it was your decision to lock them out.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Where Ice comes into the fray I do not know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    She is posting on another board that Haiko is also a member of. He goes to multiple boards as well.


    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  13. #13
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    Haiko,

    It is a lot easier to work with you when you remember your manners.

  14. #14
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm just saying this to get out there what the hurdle will be with that type of info. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes. "Evidence" is not the same as "proof", and we can expect people to obsess about the difference (and well they should).

    Deelz' suggestion is valuable because even if a piece of evidence does not constitute "proof" in and of itself, it can help to build a case when put together with evidence from other sources.

    People's own holiday shopping presents a chance to identify some specific instances of harm being done. What use might be made of their documentation remains to be seen, but it's better to have the information than not. Anyone who takes the trouble (and risks a commission) to set up test conditions before they shop is helping, not hurting, the cause.

  15. #15
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    I see a trend I don't necessarily like.

    It's one where attempts to do something that couldn't hurt and could possibly help be objected to and called a futile action, a waste of money or simply shooting blanks!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    If *YOU* are going into battle .... you just lost your head within ten minutes, I, however, with planing, ACTIONS and real recourses intend to win
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Bring it on dude, we're getting robbed every day!

    I'm not content to wait around for you to take whatever actions you might or might not take that may be or may not be the right thing to do.

    You always say - you're right and you're going to win. Great - does that mean we affiliates win too?

    Perhaps you need to outline a specific post with your plan of actions for affiliates to see. I keep seeing where you have these plans and you seem to indicate it's public knowledge but I haven't seen anything "that affiliates in general are signing on board with" much less feel confident in.

    Again, it seems you want us to believe that your solution - whatever it is and addresses - is the end all to parasite issues and whatever we as normal affiliates do will never match your level of effectiveness and more so - that what ever we do will be futile and meaningless.

    If this attitude keeps up, I'd suggest you're going to lose alot more than 63 affiliates. This board is only strong because you have many dedicated affiliates coming in here posting good information and ideas. If you continue to lose them, this board loses much of it's effectiveness and draw appeal.

    I and others want to do things that may help us document and better prepare for actions to be taken and feel the time to do that is now!

    Please don't shoot us for trying to help as well. Sometime gunshots backfire!

  16. #16
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    poon,

    If the actions encouraged *ARE* an effort in futility, then why bother? And if identifying it as such and saving many members the headache of finding it out is wrong, then I guess I'm wrong. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]

    I will make my plan of attack public soon enough, and when I say I intend to win, it is means for the affiliates, not me! I thought that was obvious [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    In the interim any thought out plans should be posted to review their effectiveness.

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  17. #17
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    I suspect the biggest thing wrong with Deelz's idea is that Haiko didn't think of it first.

  18. #18
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    We're not worthy....

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  19. #19
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    poon,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Again, it seems you want us to believe that your solution - whatever it is and addresses - is the end all to parasite issues and whatever we as normal affiliates do will never match your level of effectiveness and more so - that what ever we do will be futile and meaningless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I never said nor implied that, all I am desirous of is effective action, nothing more and nothing less.

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  20. #20
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I suspect the biggest thing wrong with Deelz's idea is that Haiko didn't think of it first.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We're not worthy....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You know what ... forget it!

    I am sick and tired of of the shoot - do it yourselves!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  21. #21
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> do it yourselves! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We're working on it ... in whatever ways we can think of.

    Stop dissing your allies.

  22. #22
    pph Expert! Gordon's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I suspect the biggest thing wrong with Deelz's idea is that Haiko didn't think of it first. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I think that was very very uncalled for Buckworks.

    @ happypoon
    Think about it, if we post our plan of action in these forums it would help them more than us, surely you realise the parasites are visiting here every day to find out what our next moves will be?

    I am certain Haiko does not give a sh*t who's idea we use so long as we win in the end.

    Travel safe
    Gordon
    YouTrek

  23. #23
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Here all along I thought that was what the "private" forum was supposed to be about. You know, the "troll" free forum.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  24. #24
    ABW Ambassador Ron Bechdolt's Avatar
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    Edited:

    Cazzies right (see post below), so I just went ahead and deleted what I said, even though it was not meant to be flaming in anyway, but given Haiko's mood today, I'm not taking any chances.

    Ron - 7 Days A Week Marketing

    Every day is a chance to learn something new and a opportunity to teach someone else.

    [This message was edited by 7-days on November 30, 2002 at 04:20 PM.]

    [This message was edited by 7-days on November 30, 2002 at 04:21 PM.]

  25. #25
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    Please! Can't we all get along?
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yes, there is a way, Haiko. I won't post it out here in the open though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why not send a PM to Haiko and others so we can see what you mean? I can understand your not wanting to post the information knowing we are being observed.

    As far as other boards and who is posting there it means nothing here. Let them do as they chose. Many people frequent other boards, what is the harm in that? I think a lot of us visit other boards that does not mean we turned our backs on ABW. We are discussing issues here and we are gaining ground slowly but surely. One of the problems are that we expect too much too soon. Yes I would love to see these parasites gone today!

    I think the sniping that goes on this board does more harm than good. Can't we make a point or a statement without getting crucified? If we don't agree with something can't people just say I disagree without being snide or point out the flaw to open it up for further discussion without being vindictive?

    I for one am willing to wait to see what Haiko has been working on. Does it really matter at this point if we have to wait another day or so? I don't see how we can undo the damage that has been done in a day or two. I wish it could.

    That doesn't stop others from offering ideas for our consideraton and actions. Pros and Cons are good for all, how about going about it in an adult fashion. Nothing wrong with having a backup plan either.

    Peace!
    Cazzie

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