View Poll Results: My proposal in Moving Forward

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  • Yes, Fantastic Idea!

    14 41.18%
  • Needs teaking.

    17 50.00%
  • No way leave it the way it is!

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  1. #1
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    All,

    I have developed a plan for the advancement as an industry via symbiotic means, what I propose is the following:

    An official definition of ParasiteWare(TM) that would be written into the respective TOAs of EVERY ad network / solution provider, mine being ...

    ParasiteWare(TM) - is a program(s) or site(s) that specifically uses technology (bho's, browser plug-ins, auto homepage settings, pop ups or sliders or other means that become available) to retain or acquire new customers via contextual advertising on any site other than the credited affiliate's, advertiser's or merchant's site.

    Every existing affiliate who would fall into this category must immediately cease and desist such activity, notify their users of such and offer instructions on how to uninstall such technology within thirty days notice from the respective ad networks / solution providers. Failure to comply will result in complete removal from respective ad networks / solution providers and total forfeiture of any unpaid and future commissions sue such parasitic affiliate.

    As this will remove any chance of an affiliate's commissions being diverted, or their links/traffic hijacked we now need to address the merchant's concerns as these will be next.

    CPA (Cost per acquisition) is the least effective model EVER and once the parasites induce their visitors to install their programs they effectively are ruining the entire business model. The exploitation of these programs (usually under the guise of affinity marketing) is skewing the results and actual numbers of CPA because of the simple fact that they are creating LIFETIME cookies on all the merchant programs (eg. an end user downloads Upromise’s RemindU application and every time they go to merchant X's site, they will be paid for commissions on every sale, and not just the originating ones within the merchant's cookie duration).

    While, I can easily identify why a merchant would want to have an affinity group as an affiliate, I can not understand why any merchant would allow and alleged affinity group exploit affiliate marketing and the VALUE it brings to the table!

    Many networks are supportive of the Dupers and parasites, and that is only because they get their cut from such allowance, and they, subsequently actively promote them to unknowing merchants.

    In looking forward and as an attempt to address issues before they arise with both the merchants and parasites complaining, I'd humbly like to propose the creation of a new business model ... ECPC.

    ECPC will be a hybrid deal for the reformed parasitic companies and will be comprised of two integral parts ... 1) CPC as these companies basically have an incredible opportunity to [ethically] drive incredible amount of branding and clicks their primary remuneration should be for such. 2) and because they have the capacity to generate value via return purchases, they, also should be remunerated for such with a small percentage of sales (eg X% of the published offered commissions). This would be the "E" portion of the ECPC model. These alleged affinity groups must be acknowledged for the value they do and more importantly can provide without being parasitic.

    My proposed ECPC model allows for symbiosis in affiliate marketing and the growth of it as a real business model while terminating the current blatant exploitation!

    Yes, 5% of "Everyday" affiliates make money, that is for many reasons, including lack of knowledge (hopefully being addressed with message boards like ABW) parasites (who get a higher commission and steal traffic and links from them) and because there is no model for the parasites that allows for symbiosis in the marketplace... hopefully with my proposal we all can keep the earnings proportionate to the REAL FACTS of where the sales originate and accordingly where they should be credited.

    As it stands now, I find it pure collusion in theft when an ad network offers a higher commission to the parasites, looks the other way when affiliates complain and even worse that they ACTIVELY promote that merchants should bring the parasites and Dupers into the respective merchants program.

    Respectfully,

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    Haiko,

    Could you explain the ECPC proposal in baby talk, please? I'm not sure if I understand it.

    Thanks,
    Andy

  3. #3
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Interesting. Will mull it over a bit before I vote or comment.

    But I just can't resist this now:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and total forfeiture of any unpaid and future commissions sue such parasitic affiliate.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Fruedian slip? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador sjangro's Avatar
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    Haiko,

    Thanks for putting your thoughts to print for consideration.

    I have the benefit of having discussed this with you personally. You'll certainly need to provide some explaination here and I look forward to seeing a consensus form. Beyond that, I think these discussions need to graduate beyond the medium of a message board.

    To that end, as you know, I've been speaking with Stephen, Todd, Wayne, Shawn, as well as yourself and others and will continue the discussions, in whatever form they need to take, to get to a good solution for everybody.

    Now I'm going out for a drink! (Harvard Sq. in Cambridge if anyone wants to join me. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img])

    thanks.
    --scott

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  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    BLFH,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

    ------------------
    and total forfeiture of any unpaid and future commissions _sue_ such parasitic affiliate.
    ------------------

    Fruedian slip? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No they forfeit their comms if they are found to be dirty and the funds go to sue them for lost earnings. This, of course will involve creation of a regulatory body, I propose a non-profit organization "affiliatetrust.org". The earnings from the suit will be dispersed equally amongst all affiliates on a per click basis for the period the infringer was out of compliance.

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  6. #6
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Ooohhhh, that's totally different then isn't it? I thought it was just a typo and you meant "due to them." I'm glad I brought it up.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  7. #7
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Scott,

    You definitely deserve that drink!

    And yes I am looking forward to moving the discussions, with all, from the boards and into action and policy.

    =========

    All,

    I am pleased to say that Scott and Befree are 100% supportive of going forward with formulating a mutually acceptable industry standard and I highly commend them for that. CJ will participate. Linkshare will host the summit so we know they are in and I'm REALLY trying to get performics into the mix also.

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  8. #8
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Haiko a well thoughtout policy plan where you assume the parasite/Dupers want to become recognized enities (Good NETizens) within the affiliate networks. The hard part for the networks would be to monitor the CPC earnings as their "rewards" users, let alone the parasite programmers, might be experienced CPC scripting thieves. The second hard part to get the parasites/Dupers to agree to is the E portions % of continuous revenue. The networks reporting interface accomodates this with their affinity tracking feature.

    Shoe horning the carpetbaggers into the merchant pool obviously is a thankless task that has to be done, as they seem to multiply like rabbits. In the past they usually choked on their own greed and went belly up when the principles ran off with all the pilfered monies. Here we all thought the explosion caused by the CyberRebates Ponzi scheme would discourage networks from hosting any more of them.

    WebMaster Mike

  9. #9
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Harvard Sq. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    !!! Small world, I probably walked right by him twice tonight. Maybe he's the guy my little girl ran into and spilled her Sprite on! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    [good thing the Honga Konga is gone! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]]

    AS SEEN ON SE!!!

  10. #10
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Scott ..enjoy that drink at one of the local watering holes on the Harvard Yard. Haven't been there since the late 70's when I was new product assistant sales manager for Wang Labs. Worked under John Cunningham who loved to go there and talk to the locals and students over some draft beers. Now there's a smart guy who could have run for Mass . Governor or even the Presidency as many tried to convince him to do. Bet he could look quickly over the issues and immediately find the solutions.

    WebMaster Mike

  11. #11
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    I think your proposal has a great deal of merit, Haiko, but I'm very dubious about the ECPC bit.

    My own experience has been that it's relatively easy to generate sales on small amounts of traffic if that traffic is ultra-targeted to the affiliate program in question, and the affiliate program is honest and relatively leak-proof.

    If I was being paid mainly per-click, my revenue would plummet! Per-click rewards those that can drive traffic, regardless of its effectiveness, whereas the whole premise of affiliate marketing is a partnership to bring customers.

    If I can build a site that gets 50 visitors a day, 2 of whom become customers of an affiliate merchant, and Person B has a high traffic freebie site that gets 50,000 visitors a day but they're all tyre-kickers, I deserve to get more for my traffic than Person B does.

    The idea that traffic for the sake of traffic has any financial value died when the .com bubble burst. If you have 1,000,000 visitors but none of them will ever buy anything, those million visitors are (essentially) worthless!

    ECPC is a HUGE step backwards and shouldn't be in the parasiteware discussion at all.

  12. #12
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    What Edwin said.

  13. #13
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Mr Murat Ates,
    Affiliate Marketing Professional

    Lets see your proposal and not your noise!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  14. #14
    ABW Ambassador sjangro's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>!!! Small world, I probably walked right by him twice tonight. Maybe he's the guy my little girl ran into and spilled her Sprite on<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Nope, I'm clean. No beverage incidents.

    I'll give you better notice next time so you can catch me. Watch out though, I'll bring my little girl and arm her with root beer.

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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  15. #15
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    Haiko-
    I appreciate the steps you've taken. Keep pushing! I sincerely believe, however, the people you are trying to deal with will not truly 'get it' until some of them get arrested. But maybe affiliate marketing is just turning me into a cynic.

    Somewhere, I am sure, the Gods of War are laughing.

  16. #16
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Edwin,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Per-click rewards those that can drive traffic, regardless of its effectiveness, whereas the whole premise of affiliate marketing is a partnership to bring _customers_.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes indeed! I learned this along time ago as well! Some merchants think that the parasites are better than an affiliate source ... let them pay per click an NOT muck up our model and see! If there is Value they will continue, if not then .... GUESS WHAT ... IT DOES NOT COST REAL AFFILIATES ANY LOST COMMS! Thus hence my proposal!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The idea that traffic for the sake of traffic has any financial value died when the .com bubble burst. If you have 1,000,000 visitors but none of them will ever buy anything, those million visitors are (essentially) worthless!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You and others are wiser than some AMs who only see the $$$s ... Push has come to shove and if the parasites can't perform ... they are gone! It is simple! See my point??????????

    Look ... let me make this simple ... Realnames ... was the best performing affiliate for many merchants .... What the F is that? and uneducated end user types your url into a browser and you pay per click and a CPA deal that is higher than "normal" affiliates? Who the he!! hires the AMs that allow this?!?!?!?!?!!?

    [quote]ECPC is a HUGE step backwards[QUOTE] for Affiliates? Get real! what value added do parasites offer to commend a higher commission ... more eyeballs? and blatant exploitation of the CPA model with lifetime cookies to skew the model that drives independent affiliates and has been exploited by parasites and dupers?

    Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  17. #17
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    No business model can be relevant, unless the parasites actually stop stealing customers or commissions, and any business model can work if they do.

    Do the parasites actually bring something to the networks and merchants? If there has been a significant increase in traffic numbers as a whole then I am sure that a PPC system would be fine. Even the present commission or lead system should be OK. If not, the parasites are only moving customers around, so why not just place the following in the TOA’s.

    ParasiteWare(TM) - is a program(s) or site(s) that specifically uses technology (bho's, browser plug-ins, auto homepage settings, pop ups or sliders or other means that are or may become available) to retain or acquire new customers via contextual advertising on any site other than the credited affiliate's, advertiser's or merchant's site.

    Every affiliate who would fall into this category must immediately cease and desist such activity, notify their users of such and offer instructions on how to uninstall such technology within thirty days notice from the respective ad networks / solution providers. Failure to comply will result in complete removal from respective ad networks / solution providers and total forfeiture of any unpaid and future commissions.

    What you do with the money is irrelevant to me as they will have been caught. Split it between the merchant and the network as an added bonus. Or maybe find a worthy charity, I can give you an account number if needed [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]


    I do not see any incentive yet for the parasites to stop. The incentive should be not to receive commissions for pilfering.

    Thanks for the hard work.

    My thruppence worth (if you remember them).

    [removed incorrect quotes]

  18. #18
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    I strongly think CPA (Cost Per ACTION, other than mere clicks) is <font size="4">THE MOST EFFECTIVE</font> business model!

    If the ECPC only pertains to Parasites that's one thing, but I would HATE to see that spread.

    And you know what I think of that .org. If I want to do any suing I can hire my own lawyer, and any commissions due me should come STRAIGHT to my bank account without any stops, anywhere, for ANY reason.

    (Edited to add: A whole bunch of other posts happened since I started typing this response.)

    There is no knowledge that is not power.~~Ralph Waldo Emerson

  19. #19
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    I don't understand it.

    So, someone comes to my site and they still get a shot at diverting them away from my links but just get paid less?

    What are you saying?

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  20. #20
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    Just as many governments won't negotiate with terrorists, I find it distasteful that we think negotiating with people who have misplaced our basic trust and violated their on terms of service and having them negotiate with "super terrorists" is going to be productive. They have already negotiated their deal and we are taking the loss for them.

    I'd rather have our sites go on a coordinated full fledged strike where all access for pages from our sites will be routed to a common and standard page that effectively tells the world what crooks and thieves we / they're dealing with and name company names. The disruption caused by this and the attention it would get would be huge. The media will be all over it and maybe we can likely get government officials in to investigate the bad faith and lack of due diligence with the crooked deals that have been made.

    With the media coverage that would be generated, we would also be able to more easily educate the consumer to how much they are being spied on with out their consent and educate them to read terms of service. I can’t see the consumers (or new merchants) running to sign up with the likes of Morpheous any time soon with this coverage. I can see where "so called" reputable companies would not want their name associated with them given this coverage and pull out due to the heat generated.

    I'm willing to close my site for a week, a month or whatever it takes to get this coverage and feel it will be much more beneficial and financially rewarding for us all in the long run. Today, I had about 1000 visitors to my site and had two sales that rewarded me a whopping $7. This is so far from the usual it isn't funny. The only reason I bring it up due to Edwin's comments which I reply with, we're all going to all be tire kickers for trying to reason with crooks and people who deal in bad faith.

    The longer we wait, the thieves get deeper and deeper embedded in unsuspecting consumers machines which will only hurt us more and more every day we drag our feet. Are there any timelines? Deliberate attempts will be made to delay a proposed meeting and when and if it occurs, deliberate attempts will be made to make it ineffective which will only benefit them and continue to escalate our losses.

    I say no negotiating! Lets spend our time on something that will force them to react one way or the other. Since it seems I'm going to be kicking tires anyway, I really have nothing to lose and stand a chance at a very huge win.

  21. #21
    Crazy Cat Lady Heidi's Avatar
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    I will never understand why you just don't hand over the evidence collected to the FBI and or local law enforcement agencies so they can be handled like thieves should be. To continue to try and work with them is leaving us open for more parasitic groups to form.

    Heidi
    Fit2a-t: The Center of the T-shirt Universe!

  22. #22
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    OK....you don't have a very high regard for each other. That's OK by me and probably everyone else as well.

    But, about that proposal...How does it work again?

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  23. #23
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    My argument remains.

    Legitimizing these thieves in any way allows them to argue levels of grey. The issue is black and white now. I can explain it to my dad and he understands. You are opening up a giant can of worms, not for our benefit, but for the benefit of the parasiteware companies.

    The time to take the stand is when the monster is outside your door, not when you have invited them in and are having coffee with them. Your proposal will open the door for them and they will be invited in to every merchants program, and once inside, they have more money to whine dine and persuade the merchants. Just look at shawn.

    I will say it again, this is a terrible idea.

    And if you want to know my proposal, it is much simpler. The end of parasiteware. While it would be nice to wait for the results of the gator lawsuit, that will take too long. So for now. If a merchant accepts wurldmedia, they are dead to me. There are enough that do not, and those I will work with and help in anyway I can.

    Those that help parasiteware will be listed on my sites as companies to avoid because of their negative impact on smaller websites. I will continue to discuss with and educate other webmasters that do not consider themselves part of affiliate marketing, even though they are. We host hundreds of sites and I discuss these issues with those webmasters and others. I will continue to ask sites to run scripts that block wurldmedia and other scripts.

    But I don't think I will discuss it here much anymore. There doesn't seem to be a point.

    Chet

  24. #24
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SSanf:
    OK....you don't have a very high regard for each other. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    and the understatement of the day award goes to SSanf! lolololololol.....

    Somewhere, I am sure, the Gods of War are laughing.

  25. #25
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Sounds about right.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

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