View Poll Results: Have you seen this site?

Voters
41. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    18 43.90%
  • No

    21 51.22%
  • I don't care

    2 4.88%
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  1. #1
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    Based on recent posts like this one:

    http://abw.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tp...2737#438102737

    Should ABW create an anonymous Supicious Activity Forum that is meant to put on public notice sites that we feel might be doing something suspicious or un-ethical.

    It does not have to be an attack on anyone or any site, just a basic post to make the owner of this particular site be put on public notice and that someone saw something or what they where doing was wrong. The owner of the site might change things quickly, but at least they will know that others are watching and aware.

    If the owner has nothing to hide when others see their site then there is nothing to worry about and nothing to defend, just a site like any other site that you see on any SE.

    Only this "forum" should be allowed to post anonymously so that there is no Mods or personal attacks to or from anyone.

  2. #2
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    I would be extremely disappointed to see something come about here as described in the poll. Especially with seeing such wording as "we feel might be doing something suspicious or un-ethical". That is completely irresponsible IMO.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It does not have to be an attack on anyone or any site, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    But that's exactly what it is!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If the owner has nothing to hide when others see their site then there is nothing to worry about and nothing to defend <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Of course there is something to defend! Especially if they weren't doing anything wrong. But then how do you defend against that??? And there certainly would be something to worry about for that site owner if their Merchants are reading that forum.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>just a site like any other site that you see on any SE. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    But then SE listings aren't labeled under a heading of suspicious activity are they?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Only this "forum" should be allowed to post anonymously so that there is no Mods or personal attacks to or from anyone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So the personal attacks can be limited to only the innocently accused?

    It is naive to think that posting under such conditions (especially anonymonity of the ones making the accusations)will not lead to and foster rampant false accusations against competitors or those who just have personal grudges against others.

    Again such a system is totally irresponsible IMO.

  3. #3
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    Ms.B

    I agree with what you are saying on most points and I know it might not be the best answer but I am just trying to come up with a solution or something that can make these type of sites and their owners aware of the fact that if they have something on their site that is against COC then we will not only notify networks but will also notify others.

    Should we have something similar to the bbb.org

    &gt; we feel might be doing

    Well when we feel somebody did something wrong we let the networks know too so it is also based on a thought of suspicious.

    When somebody is arrested for something that somebody else thought that person did wrong it becomes public record of their arrest. If innocent and later proven otherwise that person has a right to defend themself then proven to others and also made public.

    &gt; But that's exactly what it is!

    No, it does not have to be an attack. When the Jury is reading and listening and watching they form a conclusion based on the facts and if the person or site owner did nothing wrong the Jury (other affiliates) will defend them.

    Yes, I know that sometimes you hear of somebody being arrested or doing something wrong and others automactically label this person. But, if you have done nothing wrong then YOU win in the end no matter what any body says.

    &gt; rampant false accusations against competitors or those who just have personal grudges against others.

    This is true and I agree with you so what other solution can you suggest that can put a person on notice etc.

  4. #4
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>put a person on notice <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Since only the networks can really do this, it should be done via their channels (ie AAQ and LS's compliance email addy) anything else would be futile except a short term "fix".

    That being said, it looks like affiliates want this [based on the poll] and it actually might clean up these activities by a public outing on ABW for all [merchants and networks specifically] to see.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador buy_online's Avatar
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    What Ms. B Said. - NO

    What if a newbie decides to "out" someone they are sure is causing trouble, but are really not? There are many here who will perhaps due to enthusiasm or ignorance, jump the gun. There may even be those who will deliberately go hunting for what they think are sites in violation. By then it is too late.

    As affiliates who wish to stay more competitive begin to use technology like scripting (PHP, Perl, Asp etc), and things like XML, how can a newbie, or someone who is just plain ignorant render a judgment and pronounce guilt - when they just aren't qualified.

    Sure some sites that are guilty will be discovered - that is a good thing - but it comes at too high a cost.

    Having said all that, it's a darn shame that we don't have a better mechanism in place. One that for example, allows for some sort of reporting, and resolution. Simply sending an email to a network, is a little like dropping a note in the company suggestion box - makes you feel better, but that may be all anyone gets out of it.

    Since the networks is all that we have, let's start there first.

    Fred

  6. #6
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    This would open up a witch hunt, which I am sure some of the folks here just surf all day and look for things to report anyway. how about this as an exapmle! say you find something on one of my sites that you think is bad. You report me to links*** and they drop me but what I am doing is perfect in the coc. Can I come back to the witch hunt post and find out who started it and sue them. yep thats right sue them for slander since it will be costing me money out of my pocket in lost revenue. The idea sounds good on paper but just will not work in the online world.
    Vinny O'Hare - OPM - Contact Info email: vinny at teamloxly.com ~ 702-582-6742 Twitter

  7. #7
    More Cheesier Than Ever Cheesehead's Avatar
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    If a special new forum as such described is opened, perhaps new topics should be screened by administrators before being allowed to be posted.
    This World is Not My Home
    We're gonna go inside, we're gonna go outside, inside and outside. . . And then we're gonna go go go and we're not gonna stop til we get across that goalline! Quotes from the movie Rudy, 1993

  8. #8
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    This is an absolutely asinine idea.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  9. #9
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    &gt; darn shame that we don't have a better mechanism in place

    There is no better mechanism then having a place where affiliates will be scared to do anything wrong if they know they will be put on notice.

    &gt; Since the networks is all that we have, let's start there first

    I strongly agree. As an AM for another company I made it clear to affiliates as to what I thought was improper or just a notice of what not to do before and after they signed up and if caught later they where canceled, but are all the netwrorks and merchants going to do this on their own without some type of public awarenes, No.

    Here is a sample:

    -----------------------------

    Please be aware of our criteria for approving any affiliate.

    Periodically we may review your site and send you a friendly reminder. Therefore we will send you a notice privately when concerns arise.

    Hello Affiliate Partner,

    Just a friendly reminder.

    All sites and places where ???? banners or links are displayed or promoted must be in English or Spanish only for now, even through the use of email or forums, etc., whether you use any of our own domains/sites that we provide to you or your own domains/sites, is that they be kept free of errors or from any affiliations with other sites that promote parasites, illegal activities, hatred, or porn, etc.

    We understand that sometimes sites submitted can be changed, deleted or that they may contain errors or activity that perhaps you might not know exist.

    We do not wish to decline or suspend anyone without providing a chance to review what could be just a minor mis-understanding or something that can be taken care of easily or that you might not even know exists.

    However, there appears to be a problem with the site you submitted to us in our ??? affiliate program. Based on one or more of the reasons below we may have to suspend, decline or un-approve your site. Please verify and make any changes or corrections so that we do not decline or un-approve your site. You can also always change and submit a different site for approval where you will place our links and banners.

    A - there is a "'no page found", "wrong page found" or error message showing on this site
    B - site has inappropriate content such as porn, hatred, illegal or offensive material
    C - site is in another language other than English or Spanish
    D - it has a URL or domain re-direct or forwarding to another site not approved
    E - there is no appropriate contact name or email listed for you under your ??? affiliate account
    F - there appears to be activity such parasitic, too many pop-ups, or automatic downloadable software

    Please verify or make any changes. You will be given reasonable time to do so without affecting your links, banners, or commissions, however your links, banners or commissions will be affected as of the day your site is declined or not approved.

    We will send you a "second notice attempt" prior to final decline or un-approval.

    --------------------------------------

    Has any merchant or network implemented some type of notice such as this where they will actually follow through.

    We keep on relying on COC from networks and affiliates just find a way around it. Where is the COC from affiliates to affiliates.

    If we did not have police and courts to keep the crooks from being crooks the crooks would just get away with stealing and being the crook they were anyway.

    But since we have many laws and the police, the crooks know to stay honest or else they know what could happen.

    The COC is a way for affilaites to stay honest and scared of the consequences but the affiliate knows that only one person will find out, if the affiliate knows that the whole world will find out, then they will stay away from such un-ethical behaviour for fear of being put on public notice.

    The majority of votes are in favor so perhaps Haiko can come up forum based on these principles of awareness.

  10. #10
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Anyone using any form of force click/cookie setting practices should be OUTED in public as their just as bad as the BHO's. Anyone condoning cookie stuffing in any form is a 2 faced supporter of thievery. Out anyone who is hell bent on stealing commissions from Network or Indy merchants via forced clicks. The only way these wanks get any traffic is from spamming the SE's and PPCSE's.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  11. #11
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Thats why it's so important that ABW OUT any cookie stuffer Sal. Weither their a ABWer or just the snake in the weeds Tricks for Clicks player their name in public will be mud. The merchants and networks will spot the common points of those outed and hopefully take action against the broad group. If their the hord of couponers/SE spammers who also ride the 180Solutions theftware train then OUT them. If their e-mail spammers, freebee and get paid to surf wanks OUT them.

    Normal affiliates making pages meaningful to merchants and shoppers had better see some income coming their way or this whole industry is a false front for the Adwhore industry.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  12. #12
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    I don't care if anyone reports a cookie stuffer to their network or merchant in a proper way but I will stop coming to abestweb the day we have a forum for the purpose of outing people. This is coming from an experienced and honest affiliate not one of Mikes tricks for clicks vampires.

  13. #13
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    LOL! It is hilarious! 1000 affiliates listing 99,000 affiliates out of 100,000 as cheaters! ABW would be the laughing stock of the internet!

    Heyder, I won't quit. I will just stick around for the, "I told ya so," amusement when the whole thing blows up.

    I think you should hang around for the horse laugh, too.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  14. #14
    ABW Ambassador
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    The idea is dumb on so many levels. Good intentions, but wrong way to go about it.

    First, I agree that the merchants or networks should do something about the sites in question since they are violating the rules and there have been threads about these sites in the past but i don't think your idea is the way to go about it.

    Last year when this was happening Haiko said no more singling out of affiliate sites and those that do would be issued ban warnings.

    As far as your idea i think it's chicken shit.
    You want people to post anonymously sites they might feel are doing something suspicious or un-ethical. So these anonymous posters might post a site that is doing nothing wrong but you say those site owners should be alright with that? So it's OK to cast accusations on somebody that might be doing nothing wrong and doing it anonymously and in public at that? Hence the chicken shit.

    This happened last year when Connie did this and the people came back at her questioning some coupons she was posting:

    http://abw.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tp...442#9646053442

    Let the merchants or networks handle this, probably get a better response out of the merchant. I wish the networks would actually enforce the rules they set forth but we know how that goes.

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    The truth will prevail.

  16. #16
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You want people to post anonymously sites they might feel are doing something suspicious or un-ethical. So these anonymous posters might post a site that is doing nothing wrong but you say those site owners should be alright with that? So it's OK to cast accusations on somebody that might be doing nothing wrong and doing it anonymously and in public at that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Too funny! Well, I know Haiko is not dumb enough to let THAT happen, anyway.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  17. #17
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Good intentions, but wrong way to go about it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yep.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wish the networks would actually enforce the rules they set forth <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yep. Way past time that they did.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> probably get a better response out of the merchant. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Some merchants, but yep again.

  18. #18
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Dittos to what Ms. B said in her first post!

    And dittos to what Fred said, as well!

    I think the idea is bogus. It reminds me not of justice, but of the KGB tactics of getting the general populace to turn on each other by encouraging nark reports of dubious credibility.
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  19. #19
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    &gt; Good intentions, but wrong way to go about it.

    Well, did you read the last line of my reply to MS.B. We are looking for solutions to outing wrong doers and I asked who has a better way then let's do it.

    (( This is true and I agree with you so what other solution can you suggest that can put a person on notice etc. ))

    &gt; As far as your idea i think it's chicken shit.

    (( Last year when this was happening )) You said it, it's not my idea I am just posting a vote on creating a solution to another post in another thread. But it seems no one else has a solution besides calling something "Shit" why nothing should be done.

    I can have a different opinion from a merchant even on who they vote for president but calling them "shit" is not business like. If this is based on business then come up with a solution other than what you know does not work, based on relying only on networks and merchants.

    &gt; You want people to post anonymously &gt; So these anonymous posters might post a site that is doing nothing wrong but you say those site owners should be alright with that? So it's OK to cast accusations on somebody that might be doing nothing wrong and doing it anonymously and in public at that? Hence the chicken shit.

    Go read my Price Gauging info on the other thread. When the person that thought of outing price gaugers it was a dumd idea too, the dealers people in the street selling ice did not like it, but in the end who wins.

    Also why are there rankings and why is there a bbb.org and other sites where people can be put on notice for wrong doings. So that the general public can be safe and aware.

    We only want the ethical affiliates and networks and merchants to be safe and out those unethical one.

    &gt; Well, I know Haiko is not dumb enough to let THAT happen, anyway

    So now based on this if Haiko says it's a good idea then you call him dumb. When rules are put in place then those people are dumb too. Anyone that has a different opinion is dumb because it goes against reasons they otherwise might not agree with.

    Calling somebody dumb if they do something before they do it, is basically a way to stop them in their track from implementing something so that others do not view them now as dumb because others might agree with this since you now said he is dumb.

  20. #20
    Outsourced Program Manager Jorge - SHOPiMAR's Avatar
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    &gt; of the KGB tactics of getting the general populace to turn on each other

    No tactics here and not turning anyone against anyone.

    What should we do then if we cannot rely on networks or merchants to enforce the rules.

    Time after time it has been said here that sites are given 1,2,3,4, chances.

    What solution do you propose?

  21. #21
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    In response to jrami:

    Two things to comment on here.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What solution do you propose? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I propose that we do not do anything about things like merchant sites being popped up from affiliate sites.

    So, it sets a cookie. Not an *invincible* cookie, mind you, but the same kind of cookie like everyone else uses.

    So, if the visitor leaves that site without buying, and comes to yours, you set your cookie over theirs. To make like a site setting a cookie via a popup has some insurmountable advantage, only sells yourself short!!

    In other words, the solution is to actually COMPETE!


    I also must address this:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No tactics here <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It IS "tactics," no doubt about that. From Dictionary.com:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Tactics (n): (Senses 2 and 3.)

    (used with a pl. verb) Maneuvers used against an enemy.

    (used with a sing. or pl. verb) A procedure or set of maneuvers engaged in to achieve an end, an aim, or a goal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    So, it's tactics.

    As for it being KGB tactics, specifically:

    One of the things the KGB was known for was getting people to spy on their neighbors and even their families, and call in nark reports (including reports of dubious merit). End result was a culture of suspicion and distrust where people would constantly be looking for things they could "inform" for, yet at the same time living in fear that someone would invent a report about them.

    So, IMO, this *certainly* meets the definition of "KGB TACTICS." It's tactics, and it's also something like what the KGB'd come up with!
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  22. #22
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Out the networks each and every time they turn a blind eye. Save copies of your emails reporting offending sites, their responses if any, X out the domains involved and post the correspondence. Keep up the pressure until they look like idiots and liars for failure to enforce.

    Open a forum just for correspondence about out of compliance sites with the networks. All domains should be removed from the emails but it will be a record of the networks responses and tell whether this is something they ignore or enforce.

    Of course, favorable resolutions should also be posted.

    If the issue is truly enforcement, that ought to do it.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  23. #23
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    Take a look and see that the poll has turned toward better sense. That is exactly what those apposed to outing people here are referring to. At first a group of people get mad and all agree to take action. It's only later that common and good sense prevail.

    Also I'd like to comment on this

    By jrami
    "&gt; Well, I know Haiko is not dumb enough to let THAT happen, anyway

    So now based on this if Haiko says it's a good idea then you call him dumb."

    I consider Haiko to be a smart and decent person but I would never say he didn't make a dumb decision if he allowed this. Your concept of right and wrong seems to come from who says more so than common sense. If Haiko told you to jump off a bridge would you think that was a good idea because it was Haiko?

  24. #24
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jrami:
    Calling somebody dumb if they do something before they do it, is basically a way to stop them in their track from implementing something so that others do not view them now as dumb because others might agree with this since you now said he is dumb. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ouch! where's the brain-cramp icon?

  25. #25
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Calling somebody dumb if they do something before they do it, is basically a way to stop them in their track from implementing something so that others do not view them now as dumb because others might agree with this since you now said he is dumb. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>UH, OK.

    And, if you read the quote, that really would be outlandish if done as quoted. If he did do anything, I am certain it would be in a very modified form.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

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