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  1. #1
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    Todd
    Could you please address the following questions with a simple Yes or a No?

    1. If an affiliate wants to use 180 solutions Ncase to generate their traffic, is it true that as long as they go through the same protocol as the paras and Innocent sites do and notify the merchants it is legal?

    2. Do they have to inform the merchants that by using ncase they are in fact overwriting another affiliates links and the merchants own links as well?

    3. After the expose' of 180 solutions just recently, Cj has done nothing about 180 solutions they are still automatically overwriting links! How can they be compliant with the COC? Can we have a definite answer to this question? Are they compliant or not?

    4. So if 180 solutions turns out to be non-compliant then how could the affiliates using Ncase be in compliant?

    On the other hand if 180 is found to be compliant then I guess its ok for affiliates to overwrite other affiliate links.
    Thanks
    Cazzie

    Fight Back! Parasite Free In 2004!

    [This message was edited by cazzie on January 29, 2004 at 02:18 PM.]

  2. #2
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    Todd
    Still hoping for a reply on this
    Cazzie

    Fight Back! Parasite Free In 2004!

  3. #3
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    You are wasting your time, Cazzie.
    I think Todd is ignoring your thread...

  4. #4
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    Maybe he's just a real busy guy, or considers tough questions to be below his dignity level, or labels this as hate speech or something. I'm sure there is a reasonable, rational excuse!

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    What difference does it make if Todd addresses this topic or not? If Todd did have anything to say about this, he'd probably just make reference to us whining about things when there's really nothing wrong...

    ....everyone is in compliance...

    ...tracking is not affected...

    ...blah blah blah...

    Andy

    _______________
    Call the Exterminators! We've Got PARASITES!

  6. #6
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    quote:
    Maybe he's just a real busy guy, or considers tough questions to be below his dignity level, or labels this as hate speech or something. I'm sure there is a reasonable, rational excuse!

    Thats a good one!
    Suffice it to say I bumped the topic this morning while Todd was viewing the CJ Fourm. So I guess I got my answer.
    Cazzie

    Fight Back! Parasite Free In 2004!

  7. #7
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    Cazzie - Keep bumping!

    There is no better way for us to document the silence from the networks on these kinds of tough issues and their refusal to address them.

    Refusal to discuss the issues is not what affiliates are looking for as an answer from our so called trusted third party network providers.

    It seems you networks have guidelines that are either not being enforced or their is some major confusion on what is and isn't allowed -

    I'd appreciate and request some clarification as well.

    ** Have you asked for change? **

  8. #8
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    Todd is reluctant to comment..... still.
    Hello?
    Why is CJ not interested in this?
    And why are they not interested in solving the Norton problem?
    It makes one wonder what other things they are not interested in correcting.... or perhaps there is more behind the doors than we even suspect.

  9. #9
    Ad Network Rep ToddCrawford's Avatar
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    I am not reluctant to comment. I am busy doing other things, I also have a cold and am trying to get some feedback from internal resources prior to commenting on this thread.

    Todd Crawford
    Commission Junction

  10. #10
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    quote:
    Originally posted by ToddCrawford, CJ.com:
    ... trying to get some feedback from internal resources ...



    "Commission Junction requires that all publisher and advertisers adhere to their respective service agreements as well as the code of conduct (Go to "Support" for more information on these subjects.) Our Network Quality department enforces these agreements to insure the integrity of our network. When a client is found to not be in compliance, depending on the serverity of the issue, a warning will be issued and then the account will be deactivated. Unfortunately, for reasons to protect our security methods, we are not able to go into detail about the exact processes that we use."

    been there

    Web_Novice
    "Should I encounter a moment of clarity, I hope to have it recorded in these journals."

  11. #11
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Is seems strange that CJ should be guarded on our statements and allegations about outing those with "vested interests" in cookie stuffing and cookie overwriting practices. Since when can the plain simple truth of the matter be considered detrimental to the interests of the pay-per-performance industry. When does truth threaten anyone, or any program or network, unless neither can withstand scrutiny nor survive without bending the truth to suit their own agendas. Keep it simple CJ and protect with vigor the only currency accepted in the realm of affiliate marketing ....THE SACRED COOKIE.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  12. #12
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    Hi all:

    I know you’re not going to like this but here goes!

    If we all work together we can make a change!

    We can Get rid of all parasites!

    We can protect everyone’s commission!

    We can improve conversion rates from everyone's links!

    You’re all smart enough to brainstorm on this.

    Why let them monopolize and milk it…. who need that stress!

    To anyone who wants to do something about it:
    I want to talk!

    I will shut up now- k

  13. #13
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    Ok, so I cant shut about this!

    What I have to say is intended to benefit all:

    I would like to challenge Charlie to write a COC (cause he’s a hell of a writer) and then all of us brainstorm on creating another checks and balances program. I would put full recourses into this and I believe I have a head start on it. If you all will work with me, we can solve all these problems. I’ve spent the last 3 years working my ass off on this and I am not about to give up!

    Like a said before, if CJ and others are making a ton of cash with companies that use parasites, then they will not even hear our problems.

    I just want to help out because it amazes me how much the “pay for performance” marketing concept has changed.

    I’m sure that CJ would have fixed this if they could. It’ kind of like finding a cure for Cancer, since they don’t have it, they are not focused on it.

    I had to call CJ for support and every time they said they would call me back…. They didn’t!

    "Creativity is more powerful than knowledge" or something like that.
    Einstein

  14. #14
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Your request has been addressed by a very concerned group..

    http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...953#1486040953

    The entire group agreed the original CoC committee meeting needed to address the following ABW demand statement which included disclosure of all allowable diversion tactics in each merchant's public recruiting profile.......
    http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...3&m=5536066653

    If you don't have access rights to the Affiliate Union section then I'd suggest Haiko copy and post the disclose statement here so all can see what ABW tried to do in November 2002.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  15. #15
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    ROLMAO ...did I say that on Dec 4th 2002

    "Lets look at where the small site owner ..Small=budget & traffic ...fits into the bigger picture of ecommerce. All commerce, be it online or brick-n-mortar, depends heavily upon getting motivated buyers to enter your place of business. Effective advertising coupled with a quality in-demand product or service drives retail businesses if it produces sales. Without sales it's just advertising expense. Without sales there is no profits for businesses to put back into running more advertising campaigns.

    Before Internet web sites every single advertiser had to pay upfront to run even a classified Ad, yellow page listing let alone a radio or TV commercial. Sure during the .com boom times thousands of companies flush with VC & IPO funds threw billions into the coffers of the Ad wanks and nadda into the cash register. Bad start as the greed mongers running Ad agencies and Ad serving networks got spoiled by doing zip for the big bucks. They all forgot the concerns of those being bombarded by online Ads and e-mail spam, who found little value at the end of a click. Publishers displaying Ads as their sole source of revenue had to add expensive compeling content or some hook to keep the masses flowing to their Ad space when banner blindness became the norm.

    What the Ad agencies and merchant advertisers found out was the 468x60 alotted space was not enough to spell out their value proposition to qualify for the click throughs to generate buyers. Thus was born the affiliate networks, who could entice small site owners with promises of commissions to expand on the banner limitations and write copy to go along with the merchant links.

    Yahoo -Aol -MSN - iVillage -ESPN and other destination portals refused to showcase advertisers with time/labor expensive showcase pre-sell content, so the small webmaster became the cream of the crop for generating targeted motivated shoppers. They added value, at no real upfront cost, to the merchants as commissions only were paid when the desired action was completed. Amazing merchant advertisers like Dell, Pet.com or Walmart, who spend/blew millions on Ad campaigns chose to shaft their most effective publishers with diversion tactics -slow pay and fudged sales reporting.

    You'll never get a network to tell you how much Dell, Priceline, Bestbuys, JC Pennys or FTD paid out to affiliates over the duration of their network tracked pay-per-performance programs. The major affiliate enabled merchants forked out billions for pre-paid contract advertising and peanuts for PPA generated sales. Now they, without thought to how they are killing the small value add publishers, embrace parasitic affiliates who just hijack traffic and steal sales without an ounce of branding or pre-sell content. Why. Because they still think of affiliate traffic as a miniscule expense...to lay at the bottom of their "to be paid" bill outbox.

    If nothing else the parastites will awaken the merchant's advertising departments that phoney affiliates are monitizing all forms of linking to their sites. A network consisting of a few players capturing 80% of the commissions will wither and die as the millions of others cannot live off the leftovers. They have a false sense of security as they currently get paid regardless of who gets credit for the sales. Here's the wakeup call for 2003. If the network sponsoring of the ciphoning off commissions from their real value added affiliates is allowed to continue they will be left with a public swimming pool full of commission eating sharks. The self same sharks are not interested in creating one line of pre-sell ad for the merchants or even displaying a banner. Swimming with sharks, getting something for nothing, is a dangerous proposition as on a moments notice they will attack and feed on you too. When the risk of swimming in a shark invested pool outweighs the rewards then swimmers go elsewhere or stop swimming altogether.

    Merchants, and their AM agents, seem content to absorb the extra expense of the parasitic double dipping them. What they can't stand is when the real value added affiliates, who target shoppers with pre-sell content -spotlight product displays -DHTML showcases, who don't push "incented" traffic with coupons or rebates pull the plug on them in mass. WTF does advertising have to do with PPA networks.

    Advertising affiliates like AOL just wrote off 48 billion in losses during the first 2 quarters of 2002. They are the largest publisher for you merchants to tapp into and they predicted this week a 25% drop in contract Ad revenue and that PPA campaigns will bring in 40% less in sales commissions during 2003. Why ..because they do not have the time/staff or desire to add showcase pre-sell copy -product links or DHTML showcases on their pages. They also understand if they did it wouldn't help their revenue picture as the BHO parasites would feed of their efforts. I don't expect any merchants to have to kiss my butt, but the collective group of small value add affiliates needs some serious butt kissing and commission checks right now! Your other options like portal advertising, SE listings or e-mail campaigns pale in comparison to effectiveness and expense to the small affiliates who used to swim in your pool.

    AOL takes it in the ear for all of 2003...AOL Says It Won't Rebound Before '04 Steve Case Expects Ad Sales to Plummet http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2002Dec3.html



    Want to read the real insider history of advertising at AOL?
    Unconventional Transactions Boosted Sales
    Amid Big Merger, Company Resisted Dot-Com Collapse ... Washington Post, Jul 18, 2002)

    By Alec Klein -Washington Post Staff Writer

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...1983-2002Jul17

    Your alternate sources for even pure play advertising is also closing down. Ads.com closed their doors this week and over 20 other Ad networks and even e-mail campaigners closed shop this years with more to follow. Visit F**kedcompany.com for all the gory details and why my call to fire 50% of all advertising employees in 2001 seems to be happening. The few left that are effective include small site affiliates.

    Jimbo and Connie are both right. One group that adhires to Jimbo's observation are the huge number of major merchants who hire an outside professional affiliate management firm to run their programs. These guys lurk here, but never post, since they do push parasites on their clients for the increased commissions due to double dipping. None of them have the ethics nor incentive to inform their clients about the fact that those huge commission checks are going to CPA traffic hijackers and POS (point of sale) interlopers with absolutely no pre-sell value add.


    WebMaster Mike

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  16. #16
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    Hi Charlie:

    You are an awesome writer!

    I would really like to talk to you on the phone if I may?

    I have to run right now, to do a video shoot for a tv ad! Please continue and let's fix this thing!

    Thanks again!!

    "Creativity is more powerful than knowledge" or something like that.
    Einstein

  17. #17
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    kharrison,

    I am not sure if you understand how ABW works, but just incase you are clueless I will try to explain as simply as possible.

    Affiliates and merchants gather together to discuss improvements, changes needed and or requested. At times we gather together to resolve issues that need to be addressed.

    Why do you not understand we do not all need to gather to stop bad business?
    We are already gathered.


    Just incase;

    ONE MORE TIME

    We are all gathered working towards making changes we feel are important to us a unit.

    If we do not believe in your particular cause, could it be that ONLY YOU feel the need for changes you have requested?

    PLEASE wake up and smell the coffee.

    Your posts are ridiculous because you seem to be preaching to the choir.

    SandraR

  18. #18
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    quote:
    Originally posted by SandraR:
    kharrison,

    I am not sure if you understand how ABW works, but just incase you are clueless I will try to explain as simply as possible.

    Affiliates and merchants gather together to discuss improvements, changes needed and or requested. At times we gather together to resolve issues that need to be addressed.

    Why do you not understand we do not all need to gather to stop bad business?
    _We are already gathered._


    Just incase;

    ONE MORE TIME

    We are all gathered working towards making changes we feel are important to us a unit.

    If we do not believe in your particular cause, could it be that ONLY YOU feel the need for changes you have requested?

    PLEASE wake up and smell the coffee.

    Your posts are ridiculous because you seem to be preaching to the choir.

    http://www.ssan.comhttp://www.artgoo...oon_avatar.gif


    SandraR:

    Please don't get al negative already!

    If you read the major threads in all the forums. Yes, there are others!

    You will find that the issues are being talked about, but you or no one else is taking any action.

    With all due respect,I think you need to decide what side you’re on, and step up or get out of the way and stop being negative.

    There are very intelligent people here that realize the need for improvement.

    You do not need to lecture me! Or tell me to wake up and smell the coffee.

    So, please stick to the issue in this thread, OK!

    I clearly understand what is going on here.

    How can we make change if you’re running away from the problem? You punching out people is not going to solve a thing!

    I suggest you read what Charlie has to say and then talk to people in our industry and you will find that he is RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

    "Creativity is more powerful than knowledge" or something like that.
    Einstein

  19. #19
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    Further….

    Let’s ask Merchants what’s most important to them; I’ll bet it’s higher conversion rates and sales.

    Ask affiliates what is important for them; I’ll bet its commission from the same.


    The forum is supposed to be a tool to improve our industry right?


    Let’s get to work!

    Improve Conversion rates
    Improve sales
    Stop parasites, scumware
    Start a 4th checks and balances system to protect both affiliate and merchants starting with a COC that everyone will be happy with.

    "Creativity is more powerful than knowledge" or something like that.
    Einstein

  20. #20
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    We hardly need to write another COC that will be ignored & manipulated by networks & merchants anyway. We don't need anyone to tell us what we've all known and we certainly don't need you telling anyone they don't know what side they're on. There are people here who've been working on this issue for years. One can disagree with an incomprehensible poster while still being true to "the cause."

    Good idea you had though, you should talk to Charlie. You've certainly have a clear enough picture of the situation. With your ideas and Charlie's verbal skills the two of you should
    be able to develop a plan. Keep us posted.

    Wayne

    Added: We hardly need another distracting call to arms at this late date. We all know something needs to be done. So do the networks. That's the subject of this thread. Let's keep on-topic and this upfront until we get a definitive answer from CJ.

    [This message was edited by NorthernStudio on February 08, 2004 at 12:40 PM.]

  21. #21
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    kharrison, you're adorable. And, we all appreciate your intrest and enthusiasm.

    All I think Sandra R meant is that your rallying cry comes late and is rather demeaning to others that HAVE been working on this for years. I think she would have rather heard you say, "Hot d@mn! This sucks. How can I get involved and help."

    I am sure fresh new blood WILL be a big help. Read the boards and you can soon see who to volunteer to help with assorted testing projects and so forth. Make it known that you are willing and I am certain you will be appreciated.

    Mr.Merchant, if you do business in any way what-so-ever with parasites, your products will not be sold on my sites!!
    Affiliates, before you use CJ merchants, Read This! Comments are to be interpreted as opinion unless otherwise noted.

  22. #22
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    kharrison,

    I have now read your other posts, understanding any communication with you is futile. I was not attempting to be negative towards you; I was showing frustration as some would with a very stubborn, SLOW child.

    Not to worry I will no longer waste time trying to get through to you. There are other people here that have the time and patience to deal with someone like you. Your heart is in the right place but you are not playing with a full deck of cards.

    SandraR

  23. #23
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    Andy

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  24. #24
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    Hi Wayne:

    I understand! Your right it is late in the game.

    I don’t mean to disrespect anyone here.

    I came here just like cazzie who started this thread.

    I was and (and still am) a frustrated affiliate marketer. My first post ever was here!

    Out of hundreds of Merchants that I called over the past 3 years, very few ever called me back.

    CJ never returns calls I always had to call them. It goes on and on. It is very hard to develope in that environment.

    It was here that I got some answers as to why this was going on.

    Most of it referenced to the fact that I was not making either enough money so I am ignored.

    I really do appreciate everyone here. Even though some seem to take the fight within instead of fighting for the solution. I guess it's easier.

    This thread got my attention in a big way because cazzie (who started it) is looking for answers and getting the brush treatment I get from CJ.

    "Creativity is more powerful than knowledge" or something like that.
    Einstein

  25. #25
    I like traffic lights
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    Somebody shoot me.

    Now.

    Please.

    ****************************
    George Orwell got the date wrong

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