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  1. #1
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    You can complain about the reversals but PLEASE DON'T suggest they "fix" this on the front end.

    I have seen discussions here and now CJ has confirmed to me that they are working at way to NOT display the reversals.

    Folks, this is terrible. Apparently a lot of people have told CJ/eBay that they are stressed out about seeing all the red in the reports.

    If this is "fixed" in the front end you won't see the reverals. Instead, you won't get credit until credit is due.

    The problem of course is that you'll never know if what should have been yours is has been taken by someone else.

    Don't be a baby about seeing what is the truth. If these reverals are gone from your reports you really are only allowing CJ and eBay to disguise the awful truth.

  2. #2
    Affiliate Miester my2cents's Avatar
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    the real solution is to not have ebay links your website...


    Joe
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    that's my2cents, 'cuz I'm a legend in my own mind....

  3. #3
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    Greg,

    What exactly is Ebay reversing that in reality you should be getting credit for?

  4. #4
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    Ms. B,

    Don't even get me started on that.

    The point of my message is, if they take away the red reversals you won't know how much you are potentially getting screwed.

  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Greg,

    Have you looked at This Post by Ms. B? Notwithstanding, I do agree that if they don't show the reversals in the reports, people will not actually know what is going on with their transactions.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  6. #6
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    quote:
    The point of my message is, if they take away the red reversals you won't know how much you are potentially getting screwed.


    Greg, I understand your frustration (from the other thread you started) and your reasoning. But I have to respectfully disagree. The impression I'm getting is that all those reversals are actually confusing many about what IS going on with the Ebay.

    The reality is that all those reversals are occurring because the CJ cookie is tracking events as commissionable that really aren't. It's NOT money that you SHOULD have earned that you aren't. What is being reversed are things which are in Ebay's TOS which they specifically state you won't be paid for. Do I think Ebay's TOS and what they will and won't pay for are affiliate friendly? NO! But they do state their terms clearly and it's up to affiliates to decide if it's worth it to them individually if they want to enter into such an arrangement with Ebay. For me the answer is no it's not.

    The ways that affiliates are truly getting screwed in the Ebay program, for example other affiliates overwriting their cookies, are NOT showing in those reversals. Why??? Because in those instances the commission is never showing in the affiliate's report requiring a reversal. So all those reversals really don't help to educate affiliates in how they are getting screwed.

    CJ needs to be tracking accurately what they are supposed to be tracking by Ebay's program TOS. I'm never in favor of inaacurate reporting.

    Affiliates will still be able to see how their earnings are being effected by Ebay's TOS without all those reversals. They will still have other metrics such as the EPC, etc which is really a much better indication of a program's performance than a bunch of reversals confusing the situation. They will still have past historical performance for comparison.

    I would rather see affiliates lobbying Ebay to make changes in their program terms and seriously questioning Ebay about those transactions that aren't showing at all in their stats that should be!

  7. #7
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    quote:
    Originally posted by BLFH (Ms. B):
    Greg, I understand your frustration (from the other thread you started) and your reasoning. But I have to respectfully disagree. The impression I'm getting is that all those reversals are actually confusing many about what IS going on with the Ebay.



    If you think that all of that red is because of a fair and honest system then I have to respectuflly disagree.

    Do you are do you not think that eBay skews these numbers by the way they refuse someone to register and bid at the same time?
    quote:

    The reality is that all those reversals are occurring because the CJ cookie is tracking events as commissionable that really aren't. It's NOT money that you SHOULD have earned that you aren't.



    I'm sorry. I think this statement is not based on enough research to understand the total situation.

    quote:

    What is being reversed are things which are in Ebay's TOS which they specifically state you won't be paid for.



    CJ's TOS also says WhenU type sites are OK. Can you point me to the TOS online? I'm having a hard time finding this.

    quote:

    Do I think Ebay's TOS and what they will and won't pay for are affiliate friendly? NO! But they do state their terms clearly and it's up to affiliates to decide if it's worth it to them individually if they want to enter into such an arrangement with Ebay. For me the answer is no it's not.



    I don't agree. But this still doesn't explain the rapid downturn in coversions of sales to leads or the fact some *censored* at CJ can't even figure the math.

    quote:

    The ways that affiliates are truly getting screwed in the Ebay program, for example other affiliates overwriting their cookies, are NOT showing in those reversals. Why??? Because in those instances the commission is never showing in the affiliate's report requiring a reversal. So all those reversals really don't help to educate affiliates in how they are getting screwed.



    That is one of about half dozen ways. I really think a lot of this is due to the youth of the team. They've had a lot of turnover in their affiliate management program.

    quote:

    CJ needs to be tracking accurately what they are supposed to be tracking by Ebay's program TOS.



    I don't really think anyone at CJ or eBay is really sure what is supposed to accurate or not. In the meantime, don't hide the info until they get a clue.

    quote:

    Affiliates will still be able to see how their earnings are being effected by Ebay's TOS without all those reversals. They will still have other metrics such as the EPC, etc which is really a much better indication of a program's performance than a bunch of reversals confusing the situation. They will still have past historical performance for comparison.



    Strongly disagree. Affiliates need to have an idea when they are loosing to parasites and worse.

    quote:

    I would rather see affiliates lobbying Ebay to make changes in their program terms and seriously questioning Ebay about those transactions that aren't showing at all in their stats that should be!


    Let's get those terms changed and then we'll see less reverals.

  8. #8
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    eBay: One of the most ridiculously dysfunctional companies on CJ. They should be ashamed of themselves. PERIOD!

    huhu

  9. #9
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    quote:
    Do you are do you not think that eBay skews these numbers by the way they refuse someone to register and bid at the same time?



    Is that practice reflected in the reversals that you are seeing? All I can say is what I was able to discern from looking at the stats that an ABW'er sent to me. In their case, I saw a commission for a registration and a BID which were the same user and off the same click thru. Neither were reversed. Is it possible what you are saying is happening? Possible yes. Have I seen evidence that it is happening? No.

    quote:
    I'm sorry. I think this statement is not based on enough research to understand the total situation.


    Maybe. But where is any evidence for what you are saying? Again, I'm not saying it is not happening, but I haven't seen any proof to the contratary. I went into evaluating the CJ reports expecting to find monkey business. Out off all the pages of stats I looked at for what was being recorded (which is what we are talking about here), I couldn't find ONE reversal which I could not account for under Ebay's TOS. Again, I think Ebay's TOS are not affiliate friendly. But every reversal I looked at was a reflection of their TOS.

    quote:
    CJ's TOS also says WhenU type sites are OK. Can you point me to the TOS online? I'm having a hard time finding this.


    Ebay's Affiliate Section

    And actually no CJ's TOS doesn't say WhenU is ok. WhenU is clearly in violation of CJ's COC, however CJ choses not to enforce the COC. That is a separate issue however.

    quote:
    But this still doesn't explain the rapid downturn in coversions of sales to leads


    Do you mean registrations to Bids/BINS? If I remember correctly, this is what your other thread was asking about.

    quote:
    That is one of about half dozen ways. I really think a lot of this is due to the youth of the team. They've had a lot of turnover in their affiliate management program.



    And they seem to be taking much of their advice from CJ.

    quote:
    In the meantime, don't hide the info until they get a clue.


    What specifically will be hidden? I'm just saying that transactions that should have never been recorded because Ebay has a one time occurrence should not be recorded. If they are not recorded in the first place, then there is no need for the reversal. Any reversal they come back do on a truly commissionable transaction would still be showing. I know of no other merchant that has one time occurrence whose cookie is tracking on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th occurrence.

    quote:
    Affiliates need to have an idea when they are loosing to parasites and worse.



    I will say this once again:

    REVENUE BEING LOST TO THE PARASITES IS NOT EVEN SHOWING IN YOUR STATS ASIDE FROM A POSSIBLE CLICK THROUGH. IT IS NOT REFLECTED IN REVERSALS.

    I have documented proof to back that statement up. Part of the proof (the overwrite) I posted in the thread Haiko referenced here. It's video 4. The BIN never even showed for that affiliate, let alone a reversal. Post me something showing a reversal which can be directly tied to interference by a parasite. So what you might see in your metrics which could be a direct relation to the parasites is a reduction in your EPC beginning in February. Also a trend in the number of your commissioned registrations (not necessarily how many were reversed), but looking at say a 3 month period prior to Feb, did you see a sudden drop in the total number of registrations in Feb compared to previous months. As I indicated in the other thread, some of the incent paras are targeting registrations. I also posted videos of this. But again these would not show a reversal because you are not even seeing that registration to begin with. Your cookie would be overwritten before the registration (or BIN/Bid) even happens by the end user.

    I do STRONGLY agree with you that affiliates need to know they lose money to the parasites. All I'm saying is that all those reversals have nothing to do with the parasites. So having the reversals there does not educate the affiliates to the money they are losing to the parasites. Many are assuming that I think, but that is misinformation and only conjecture. What affiliates need in accurate information.

    quote:
    Let's get those terms changed and then we'll see less reverals.


    Totally agree!!!! And more money.

  10. #10
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    quote:

    Is that practice reflected in the reversals that you are seeing? All I can say is what I was able to discern from looking at the stats that an ABW'er sent to me. In their case, I saw a commission for a registration and a BID which were the same user and off the same click thru. Neither were reversed. Is it possible what you are saying is happening? Possible yes. Have I seen evidence that it is happening? No.



    I think it it is FAR MORE LIKELY that the way eBay delays the availabilty of someone to register and confirm at the same time that the visitor will then continue to surf and therefore run across another affiliate or eBay themselves that will see the "last bid".

    quote:

    http://affiliates.ebay.com/



    I may be blind but I don't see where on this page it says anything about other affiliates overwriting your sales. I know what they have said in e-mail but I don't see where it is formally documented anywhere else.

    quote:

    Do you mean registrations to Bids/BINS? If I remember correctly, this is what your other thread was asking about.



    Yes.

    quote:
    And they seem to be taking much of their advice from CJ.


    The person who started the program is now a Sr. VP. I keep telling him to step back down and run the program again. He doesn't seem too inclined.

    quote:

    What _specifically_ will be hidden? I'm just saying that transactions that should have never been recorded because Ebay has a one time occurrence should not be recorded. If they are not recorded in the first place, then there is no need for the reversal. Any reversal they come back do on a truly commissionable transaction would still be showing. I know of no other merchant that has one time occurrence whose cookie is tracking on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th occurrence.



    OK. But does that mean a reversed Active Registraion is something that we should have never seen either?

  11. #11
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    quote:
    It's Your Money. You earned it. What are you going to do to make sure you get to keep it?


    That about sums it up,

  12. #12
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    I think a large part of non-active registrations happen under this scenario:

    1) User sees an item they like, click on the link.

    2) User goes through the registration process. Enters a hotmail account.

    3) Registration is counted towards our totals, cookie is cleared.

    4) With a hotmail (or other free mail) account, the user is asked to enter a credit card number. User decides not to register, or decides to use another email address. Sadly, the cookie has already been cleared, so this new registration doesn't pay us. Nor does the original.

    I believe I saw this very scenario happen. I had a registration, and then a bid at a later time in the day from the same IP address. The registration never converted to active. I contacted CJ, they said that the user didn't bid with the account they registered, they bid with another account.

    Problem is, the user was using DSL, and since I can track the IP of that user, I saw the item they bid on. It was a new user with a registration date that coincided with the click date of the original registraion and the bid.

    I was only able to catch this because the user came back to my site to do a second search.

    As for the original thread, I don't want to see something that I'm not supposed to get commission for (i.e. the multiple bids per click, clearly due to a CJ bug). And if I'm convinced that the "super affiliates" are legitimately entitled to my commissions, then I don't want to see those reversals either. I can make my own judgments based on click-thrus as to how the program is performing.

    Ralph

  13. #13
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    Ralph,

    What about reversed Active Registrations?

  14. #14
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    quote:
    What about reversed Active Registrations?


    I think some of that could be related to the April 1 TOS changes by Ebay Greg. Since they do have to complete the registration process via email and then come back to place that first Bid/BIN. With ebay changing their TOS, affiliates could be losing some of the Active Registrations if the user comes back to Ebay through Ebay's natural search listings or paid advertising links (such as Ebay's PPCSE, portal listings, etc). An Ebay cookie would be set but the CJ cookie would also still track. Per Ebay's own admission, they are currently having to manually go in and reverse affiliates transactions when the Ebay cookie is the "last cookie in." If you have noticed an increase in the number of Active Registration reversals starting in April that could be part of the reason. When I threw out the figure that an affiliate had seen their reversals climb to over 30% in April, Ebay's response to me was "that sounds about right with the changes we made in April."

    Again, not very affiliate friendly IMO as far as program terms go.

    I do have one other thought as to what possibly could be happening with what you are saying, but I need to test it before I comment one way or the other.

  15. #15
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    Try to cure the problem, not the symptoms.

    The reversals are a symptom of the bad TOS.

    If your visitors return to ebay by typing ebay into a search engine or search bar, you get reversed. The TOS is the problem.

  16. #16
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    quote:
    Originally posted by jimbo2002:
    Try to cure the problem, not the symptoms.

    The reversals are a symptom of the bad TOS.

    If your visitors return to ebay by typing ebay into a search engine or search bar, you get reversed. The TOS is the problem.


    Jimbo, you hit the nail on the head. TOS is the problem. eBay has the worst TOS - they do not pay if a user comes later through organic search results. This is the main problem of this downward trend in revenue. Their cookie means NOTHING.

    Wish there is merchant with a tool like ebay editor kit. If I found a merchant with a diverse product range and a tool like editor kit, I'll dump ebay in 5 seconds.

  17. #17
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    It's obvious to me that eBay is doing everything they possibly can to AVOID paying commissions. And yet they state that the affiliate program is very important to them.

    BULLSHOOT!

    Actions speak louder than words here, and their actions lately are very anti-affiliate. First they allow the incentive sites in, so the affiliates who create pages to bring customers to eBay don't get paid when their visitors click on their eBay links. The software apps take over and make sure that doesn't happen.

    Then they throw in this "natural search effort" BS, which is basically another way for them to worm out of paying commissions.

    Here it is the 9th of the month, and I still have ZERO registrations. ZERO! And I'm supposed to believe this is in my best interest? Well, I feel like I'm getting screwed, and I'm getting to the point where I don't trust eBay enough to continue to send them visitors from my site under these circumstances.

    If eBay TRULY wants their affiliate program to be a good one, they'll make changes QUICKLY to restore the trust they've lost. I'm making less money now with eBay, yet my site traffic and SE rankings are better than they were last year at this time. If that's just the way it should be, then they need to reverse all of the program changes they've made over the past few months, as the people who are supposed to be compensated for their efforts are not being compensated any longer.

    EBAY = FIX YOUR PROGRAM! IT STINKS!!

    Andy

  18. #18
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    at this point in time there is not a whole lot you can do b/c eBay has no competitors and it is apparent that their affiliates are not a huge concern of theirs.

  19. #19
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    quote:
    Originally posted by BLFH (Ms. B):
    I think some of that could be related to the April 1 TOS changes by Ebay Greg. Since they do have to complete the registration process via email and then come back to place that first Bid/BIN. With ebay changing their TOS, affiliates could be losing some of the Active Registrations if the user comes back to Ebay through Ebay's natural search listings or paid advertising links (such as Ebay's PPCSE, portal listings, etc).



    Right. And that's why I think the reversals should stay in. Not that it matters what we think, but could we leave them in for awhile so we can share our pain

    I have never beleived that it was rational to think that someone would go through registration without the intention of bidding.

    But ~40% of registrations never go active. Now, figure around 10% will be reversed. That's a whopping 50%+ of people we send from our site to eBay via a targetted link that we don get a penney for.

    quote:

    If you have noticed an increase in the number of Active Registration reversals starting in April that could be part of the reason.



    BUT, (and I have a big but), I dind't have a problem with April. It's May that I'm seeing the ratio problem of sales to ACRUs. Honestly, if I have a good conversion number I don't care about the reversals.

    quote:

    When I threw out the figure that an affiliate had seen their reversals climb to over 30% in April, Ebay's response to me was "that sounds about right with the changes we made in April."



    Right. And I bet it isn't as bad as it feels. At least for April. Can you post what their actual % of revenue lost was? I bet it isn't as high as 30%.

    I think something is broke and eBay is very fluid in their program. In other words they keep flipping switches to see what happens. Kind of like Microsoft with their licensing programs.

    Finally, the one occurance issue with BINs really sucks. We could be selling hundreds of dollars worth of product with one visitor but only getting a nickle for it. This is a shame when it comes to getting reversed if they BIN an item verus BID.

    This is a primary reason to keep the red. It's one thing to have a TOS that says you won't get paid for a duplicate transaction. BUT, affiliates need to do less whining about the color of the number and keep an eye on what's happening.

    If we all ran reports and noticed multiple BINs being reversed for the same customer we can shout "Hey, that's not fair".

    You won't know how unfair it is if you can't see it reported.

  20. #20
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    quote:

    Wish there is merchant with a tool like ebay editor kit. If I found a merchant with a diverse product range and a tool like editor kit, I'll dump ebay in 5 seconds.


    The person at CJ that is helping to push the red ink out also thinks this about the Editor Kit and content sites:

    "Just using an Editor Kit will not do the trick."

    So, don't depend on that.

    Also:

    "It is tough to convert on eBay if you came from a content site"

    Remember that people! If you send highly targetted trafic to eBay you're in trouble!

    I'm not having trouble converting clicks to sales and my business model hasn't changed in 6 years.

    What has changed is that a few years ago we shifted the site to be built around eBay instead of Amazon.

    It's nice to know your entire business model can go into the toliet in 5 days because all of a sudden "It is tough to convert on eBay if you came from a content site".

    All of a sudden, this is how it works:

    "Content sites and niche sites have nice conversion on bids and BINs. The websites that are successful in converting ACRUs from traffic are ones that pre-sell eBay to their users as the shopping website of choice."

    I have no idea what he's talking about but the bottom line seems to be as of May 1, content sites are OK for sales but some mysterious "pre-sell" site is what you need for ACRUs.

  21. #21
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    I pulled all my eBay links. Last month my SO sent over 7,000 visitors to eBay and made less than $25. He pulled all but 2 eBay links.

    Here's what he thinks is the problems are.

    1. eBay gets so much traffic that just about every cookie that is set is over written in the day it's set.

    2. eBay has so many registered members, who have registered in the past but have lost all the info, that when it checks new registrants to see if they have registered before, they get a large percentage of matches and deny the registrations.

    3. eBay does not want to pay affiliate commissions if they don't have to or can set it up so they have an excuse not to pay. If they can find even a borderline way of negating 50% of the affiliate payments, they earn as much as $1 million dollars a day extra and maybe more.
    They are not going to cheat Yahoo or the like because they will take legal action. But guys making an extra $1,000 or so per month or less are more than likely not going to do anything but complain. If 20% of the affiliates account for 80% of the affiliate action, why should they care about anythng but the 20% guys.

    4. But the real problem more than likely has to do with PROFIT. And this applies to every affiliate program. For retail stuff, even if the profit margin is 50% it's tough to make a profit when you figure in all the costs. For a service firm like eBay, volume is where the profit lies. If a auction gets 1,000 bids they are out $50 and they make a profit only if the service fees are well over the $50 level. The more reversed bids you can get away with, the lower your overall cost of hosting the auction, the more profit.

    Basically, paying for bids is pretty silly but how else are you going to get people to go bid on something they might like to have but don't really need or to find out that such an auction even exists for the stuff.

  22. #22
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    I'm not even going to try to read this whole thread right now as I still get pretty steamed about the situation.

    It looks like everyone continuously posting about fraud must have missed the multiple emails and postings about their TOS changes. They used to pay for all bids, regardless of how many cookies were set. They realized, at one point that they were paying multiple people for the same transactions, so they put an end to it. They told us this.

    The real problem is that their cookies are not being overwritten, so people get credit & then it's taken away once they get the transaction straightened out on their end. That's not right.

    I don't agree w/ their Terms, but unless you can provide proof otherwise, then I don't see fraud either... I'm just not going to promote them on any new sites & I'm taking down many links on existing sites...
    Hi, I'm a signature.

  23. #23
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    @Celicaphile...TY, exactly the point I've been trying to make. Heck, I got info on Ebay's program TOS from CJ and I'm not even an affiliate of Ebay's.

    quote:
    It's May that I'm seeing the ratio problem of sales to ACRUs


    Maybe increased marketing efforts by Ebay for Mother's Day??? I know I got several emails from them (just clicked on an old Ebay promo email and it set a mediaplex and ebay cookie). And then there were all those Mother's Day pop ups on the Ebay site through doubleclick. Either one clicked on prior to the BIN/Bid to complete the Active Registration would later show as a reversal for the reasons I've already stated.

    quote:
    Not that it matters what we think, but could we leave them in for awhile so we can share our pain


    If it really makes you feel better to see all those reversals that shouldn't have tracked to begin with, go for it. Considering that this has been a long standing issue, you'll probably get to see those reversals for awhile yet.

    I see Ebay's program as very similiar to what TD did as far as TOS. Except Ebay has actually taken steps to inform their affiliates of the TOS changes. And I haven't come across Ebay making their own affiliate sites like TD.

  24. #24
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    It is possible this program has reached a saturation point due to it being heavily over promoted in the past few years, with too many affiliates competing for a gradually diminishing piece of pie.

    Is there an alternative program out there which can be utilised, one which is relatively untapped and could be pushed to be a competing brand? A program which affiliates can make successful, like how affiliates contributed in their small part to the success of ebay today.

    To summarise, are there viable alternatives?

  25. #25
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    $11.95 39 5 6,582 60,459 0.109 $0.20 0.007 $0.18

    Here are the eBay stats for the year...6,000+ clickthrus and only 5 registrations and 39 bids...yeah sure.

    I'm sure people go to eBay to waste their time.
    Less than 1/10th of one percent says one thing and one thing only...it starts with an F and ends in a D and is 5 letters long.

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