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  1. #1
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    So far I have sent 1023 super targetted click thrus to SAS lingerie merchants and ZERO sales.

    How come? Well, maybe they all deal in smoke and mirrors. On the otherhand, maybe because they are all run by guys.

    All the sites feature sexy poses and the like.
    Question? Who's buying the stuff? Who's wearing the stuff? Women mostly.

    It seems to me, the sites are all designed for guys with a lingerie fetish and not to sell product.

    These sites convert at about 1.5% or so I have been told by the owner of a big one.

    That's pretty pathetic when you figure that half the people in the world wear some sort of underwear.

    How long would any brick and mortar lingerie store survive if they made just 15 sales from every 1000 people who came into the store? Not long, I suspect.

    Here's the problem. IF you make 2 sales in 100 targetted click thrus for $20 each, that's $40.
    The commissions are $4. PPC minimums are $5/100 on Overture, Google Adwords, Kanoodle, Findwhat and even more on Yahoo now.

    Granted you COULD make larger sales and more money and also get some FREE SE traffic, but unless you make a $20 EPC it's almost an exercise in futility profitwise.

    Specifically targetting products -like thongs, bras, camisoles might get a better conversion rate but most of the merchants do not have specific pages devoted to single product categories, nor are the sales offers better than you can get at Walmart, Mervyns or Target.

    For instance, the hype for Howie's place is over 60,000 cusotmers since 1997. That works out to about 24 sales(not items - items could be much more) per day on average.

    Numbers, numbers, numbers...when you do the math it's scary what we do.

    JJ

  2. #2
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    quote:
    JJ Wrote: For instance, the hype for Howie's place is over 60,000 cusotmers since 1997. That works out to about 24 sales(not items - items could be much more) per day on average.


    Yes, JJ but your forgeting repeat sales and it's more like 72k at this point but whos counting.

    There is no doubt the lingerie market has a lot of lookers. Whats important is a quality product, superior customer service, and an affiliate program that works. With the right tools, 365 day cookie, no parisites stealing from you, and a huge selection, the rest is up to you.

    JJ, please send me a PM with your SAS id, so I can take a look at what you have and see if there is anything we can do. BTW, I could be wrong but I don't think the traffic you are refering too was sent to us, was it?

  3. #3
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    I agree 100% Bob! You hit the nail on the head. Or are you reading my mind?

  4. #4
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    Well I cant speak for Howie so I wont.

    As a SAS lingerie merchant though I will speak.

    My wife runs and designs the site not me I run the business end so it is ran by a women. Also I don't know if it was you or not that I traded e-mails with so if I repeat myself, sorry about that.

    We had an affiliate buying the keyword lingerie on adwords among many other top level words. This affiliate was spending more than us per click on the keywords. A keyword like Lingerie is not going to convert well at all. As a matter of fact we and just about every other lingerie site buys it at a loss. What few customers we get from it we try to keep with our great service. So in the long run it can pay off for us to buy it but I would in no way recommend an affiliate buy top level keywords like that.

    The same would hold true for thongs, bikini, corset, or bustier. They are all top level words. That would be the same thing as buying Jeans, DVD, camera, or phone as a keyword. They don't convert very well and everybody knows that.

    The best way for an affiliate to make money with lingerie is buy building a site. I do have a few affiliates that buy keywords but they DO NOT buy top level words. Buying top level google and overture ads is not going to work. Buying keywords like lingerie and spending enough on it so you are in the top 4 results and calling them targeted hits is crazy. If you are the affiliate that is still doing that please look and see that you are the only ad with "aff." in the results.

    I am not trying to discourage you but you have to be real here. It is a simple math calculation. If the site is converting at 1 sale per 100 hits and your commission on that sale is $9.50 and you spend $0.10 a click you will lose $0.50 for every sale you send. Also look at the return rate of a site.

    As far as lingerie sites converting. You can look at the SAS stats. We cant hide from the #'s It is real easy to compare sites. Don't go buy what we post in here look at the stats. So please look at the stats then decide how to approach this.

    <edit>Sorry I posted it again to get my short sig in here.</edit>

  5. #5
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Howie:
    I agree 100% Bob! You hit the nail on the head. Or are you reading my mind?


    Thanks, I thought you would but I did not want to speak for you.

  6. #6
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    quote:
    I agree 100% Bob! You hit the nail on the head. Or are you reading my mind?


    Howie it looks like you were reading Bobs mind as he had not even posted what you said "hit the nail on the head" yet. Are you guy's sitting next to each other?

  7. #7
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    I posted it and deleted it. Please read the edit at the bottom of my post. They changed the rules here because of the long SIG's and I forgot to edit my SIG before I posted. So I deleted my post and reposted it. He posted during that.

  8. #8
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    We must have posted at the same time as all 3 posts are within seconds. Or when Bob deleted it and posted the correct one.

  9. #9
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    My problem is that we are talking ZERO sales from 1023 PPC and clicks from my women's page.

    Not ONE sale but ZERO.

    I sent them to 4 different lingerie merchants.
    Howie got 100 or so, so far.

    If you can't convert sales from keyword click thrus from the likes of lingerie, intimate apparel, thongs etc. why even be in the business?

    I understand that the targetting could be drilled down a bit to brand names and specific
    items but is that really how people shop?

    If I need lingerie, I go to the lingerie area of Target or JC Penney.

    If the merchants can't make money on category specific keywords as you point out, then how can you expect affiliates to make money?

    Here's another factor. Buying a keyword on a brand specific product may get you a 1 in 30 sales number but the scale will be so small as to be relatively meaningless.

    Whereas with the key word lingerie for instance, buying spot number 8 for 3 cents might get me 30 click thrus to my lingerie page which generates 5 adsense clicks and 5 searches so, the cost is close to me is close to zero to get the 10 to 15 click thrus to the merchant.

    With a 1% to 2% conversion rate, you would be throwing away money, if you sent PPC directly to the merchant.

    All you have to do is look at the EPC's at CJ to see that very few product sites convert at 5 cents per click or better.

    All things considered it's not the gross amount of money you make but how much do you get to keep as profit that matters.

    Conversions would be much higher if merchants packaged individual items on individual pages that offer real value to the customer.

  10. #10
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    quote:
    Jersey Jean wrote: Conversions would be much higher if merchants packaged individual items on individual pages that offer real value to the customer.

    Agreed! I can't say exactly what we do here, but we do have items that are "Of Super Value" making it hard for the customer to resist and thus a convertion.

    There are so many factors that make a sale. You can beat it to death just analizing it. The bottom line is affiliates who have good content, a merchant with all the right "stuff" (by stuff I mean customer service, quality items, selection, affiliate tools, incentives, no parasites etc.)and the rest is up to the customer.

    If making sales were easy then there would be a step by step manual.... similar to a recipe with only one real way to do it.

    Women's Apparel is not an easy sell. It is however one of the most widely shopped merchandise for both the web and brick and mortor. In fact, I believe it's more popular online.

    One thing you did here JJ is to get me to add more package deals for our customers. Like super deals such as 12 Thongs for xx.xx as well as a more aggresive approach towards value. I thank you!

  11. #11
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    Before you go criticizing the merchant's for not converting, take a look at those keywords you are talking about. 'lingerie', 'intimate apparel'. Are these the terms people wanting to buy really use to search. And the answer clearly is no. 'size 2x black bustier' - now that's someone searching for a specific product. 'buy lingerie online' - that's someone (probably a man) who wants to um find somewhere to buy lingerie online but 'lingerie' and 'intimate apparel' are pretty much meaningless searches. You can't determine intent in a one word search and if you can't determine intent, don't bid on the keyword.

  12. #12
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    Jersey Jean,

    Our site has drilled down sections. Maybe not to your standard but trust me we do what needs to be done to convert as good as we can selling lingerie. I also want to add that if a merchant is telling you (In this case 2 of us and a MOD) not to buy certain keywords and you don't listen how can you possibly blame us for not converting.

    How many times have you been shopping with a women? (I am not knocking women here!!) They goto the mall and go from store to store. Will they buy from them all? NO,, The reason is they did not find anything they liked in that store. The same holds true for online stores. When you buy keywords like lingerie you are sending very untargeted traffic to our sites. Do you know how many men do a search for lingerie every day just to see pictures?

    If you send me another e-mail I can point you to a service that can help you with picking key-words. I will also do this for any of my affiliates that want a link to them.

    I would really like to help you but please trust us when we are telling you keywords like lingerie and thong will not convert well enough to make any real money. We have no reason to lie about this. Making money online is not as easy as building a site and throwing a bunch of money a PPC if it was everyone would be doing it.

    I am here to help if you want it just ask.

  13. #13
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    Mark, before I read your post I sent you an email. Your ears must have been ringing!

    Your point is what I have said many times to affiliates. Converting sales is a very complex strategy. No one is even talking about the "stolen" clicks that happen. If affiliates stay with merchants who are parasite free, well they just may see better conversions. Also what about average sales. If a merchant has a higher adverage sale than others - shouldn't that be part of the equation too! And the list goes on.... reversals, cookie duration, etc. This topic is so vast.

  14. #14
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    I agree that keywords like lingerie, etc are not as productive sales wise as say a specific size and maybe even color item...you have to have all the bases covered so to speak. But some sales must be being made as they have lots of bidders.

    I am sure that having package deals of say 6 thongs for X amount or 3 camisoles for X amount would do very well.

    I agree that lingerie is a well shopped item online which is why I am still plugging it.

    When I find the right offers the profits will come from sales. In the meantime, the keywords you say not to buy will generate at least a one cent per click thru profits from Adsense.

    When you come up with a package or too type deal, I'll plug it in to my page and send it out to my list and see what happens.

    It's good to deal with merchants who are interested in an affiliates opinions.

  15. #15
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    Jersey Jean,

    If you have a site set up I would suggest using our PCS tool to help you build pages of content for the site. This will help land shoppers on what they are looking for and also add content to your site. You can also use our data-base if you are set up to do that on your end.

    The benefit is you will at least be sending shoppers that want more info on a particular item. Also by adding content to your site you will help it rank better in the search engines. Search engines love big sites the bigger the better. So if you can add a few hundred pages of content to the site you would defiantly see better conversions and rankings.

    One thing all of my top affiliates have in common is item links. I am sure other merchants will say the same thing.

    If you email me your URL I can give some suggestions on how to add them.

  16. #16
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    What surprises me is that I just made your site and only have a simple link to it on an active site. There is NO search engine placement for this site, yet. Still it has the second largest number of click throughs for a single merchant, today. No sales, but a lot of people sure want to see what is there.

    The 7 Day EPC is $3.87. 7 Day average sales is $74.21. Does that mean I need to send 288 clicks to get one sale and earn $11.13 on that sale at a 15% commission rate? This could add up after people really find the site.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  17. #17
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    SSanf

    All of that is true. I would also like to point out our 60 day stats do not look that good. They are not far off but the last 7 days we have had some really large orders come from affiliate sites. Many over $100.00 and a few over $200.00. Mostly clothing and shoes with fast delivery methods picked for St Patrick's Day parties.

    We often see spikes like this just before every major partying holiday. New Years, Halloween, Labor Day, Well I think you get the idea.

  18. #18
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    quote:
    super targetted click thrus


    There is no such thing as super-targetted traffic from search engines for this type of stuff. For every genuine prospective buyer who searches for "women's thongs", there are 20 to 100 hornballs searching for "women IN thongs".

    And as far as a store not surviving on 15 out of 1,000 customers buying, that ratio is beside the point; the hornballs don't go into stores to look at the stuff hanging on the walls.

  19. #19
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    For 60 days 294 click throughs gets average commission of $9.26.

    So for 60 days should earn around $3.15 per 100 click throughs, minus 4.48 % reversals gives about $3.00 per 100 click throughs, right?

    So, if you get about 300 click throughs per day you should earn about $280 a month with this program.

    I can see where 300 click throughs a day are doable. My concern is that they will just be lookers.

    Well, we will see if it works out that way.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  20. #20
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    SSanf,

    That is our average and you built a product site so I think you will beat the average or be even above average.

    I just looked and our best converting affiliate who only promotes to Australia I think because about 90% of the orders he sends ship to there. He us above the numbers you have posted. He is at $3.63 per 100 hits. This is his total from day one with our program so it goes back more than 60 days.

    This total is after returns.

    SEE NEXT PAGE!!

  21. #21
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    Ok my wife just called me on a lie I just posted. Our best converting affiliate hits a sale every 38 hits. Now with that said this affiliate has only sent 453 hits EVER but her pay per 100 hits is $27.11.

    Sorry but my first post was referring to power affiliates that send large amounts of traffic.

    Sorry I had to edit this because I found a better one than my wife found.

  22. #22
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    I hate to be a nudge, but why would anyone promote anything for 3 to 4 cents per click on average based on CPA when you make double or triple that from adsense traffic for the same click and not have to worry about any conversions?

    There is always one person who is the best affiliate in terms of EPC and always one who is last. But what is the median, which is the most important metric?

    The problem is not whether people can sell one of anything...it's about how long does it take and could you make more doing something else.

    One sale per day making $20 profit is $600 per month...at 15% that's $134 in sales per day.

    Scale is important...is it worth spending the time to make 100 pages of content to make $3.50 for 100 clicks?

    It is if you get it from 30,000 clicks per month.

    Not so good if it's only 100 clicks per month.

    I am being devil's advocate here....

  23. #23
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    quote:
    adsense traffic


    Well, for one thing, adsense won't accept my witch sites. I have applied.

    For another thing, it only took me two days to make the site and $300 a month could be used at my home if this takes off and I can get 300 click throughs a day. That will probably take some more work.

    I sale a mix of high and low ticket items. It takes a whole lot more click throughs to sale items that have a high price. But, those are nice when they happen. There are enough of them to bring up the average when there are slow days.

    This approach has allowed me to support myself from affiliate marketing.

    Next year, I want to support my self in comfort. The year after that, in luxury.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  24. #24
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    quote:
    Next year, I want to support my self in comfort. The year after that, in luxury.

    I hope you achieve the luxury life sooner than 2 years.

  25. #25
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Luxury would be nice!
    Thanks!
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

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