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  1. #1
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    We are working with 3 companies that we have
    advised to set up affiliate programs on SAS.

    One is a publically traded Gold company that wants to 'brand' the company and send those who want it, an investment kit about the company.

    The question is would you become an affiliate and promote it for 3 cents per click thru?
    English, Aussie, Canadian and USA based affiliates only.

    The other two companies are looking to pay per click thru against 10% commissions.
    You make the which ever is the higher payout.
    Only USA or Canadian based affiliates.

    Hopefully we can add another 4 or 5 companies before October to the SAS fold - all will be CPC or a Combo deal.

    These are all pretty substantial companies - not mom and pops.

    We'd appreciate your input.

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador phillyburbs's Avatar
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    Jean:

    Interesting, though I'd obviously want more information before making a decision. I like the PPC vs. Commish structure.

  3. #3
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    quote:
    The question is would you become an affiliate and promote it for 3 cents per click thru?


    No I wouldn't because it is not comparable to what you can get with other click through programs.

  4. #4
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    $0.03 per click ... on a lead program?

    Danger, that sounds like ....



    You've obviously worked the numbers and conversions all the way down to the rediculous!
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  5. #5
    Affiliate Miester my2cents's Avatar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Haiko:
    $0.03 per click ... on a lead program?

    Danger, that sounds like ....

    http://abestweb.com/smilies/bs.gif

    You've obviously worked the numbers and conversions _all the way down_ to the rediculous!


    I agree....

    Joe
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    that's my2cents, 'cuz I'm a legend in my own mind....

  6. #6
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    PPC is not the way to run an affiliate program. It's an invitation for fraud and a disincentive for those who can send quality traffic.

    Just look at what CPC affiliate programs have done to the quality of PPC SE's (other than Google and Overture). They're useless, even at a penny per click.
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
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  7. #7
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    Thanks for the input.

    We have been trying to decide on which is the best way to go for the gold deal for over a month....the numbers have been crunched as Haiko has pointed out.

    And we are NOT paying just 3 cents for the lead.

    We would be paying 3 cents for the page view which tells about the company and offers the opportunity to get an investor kit for FREE.

    We could pay straight per lead of $.80 which comes out to $.96 cents out of pocket to the company.

    But is that the best deal for the majority of the affiliates? And does it maximize scope and reach of the monthly budget for the program?

    For example: If the total monthly budget for the program is $5,000 of which $3,600 is going to be paid to affiliates and SAS, which way gets the most traffic to the page - straight lead or pay per click of 3 cents?

    If it's 3 cents per click that would generate 100,000 paid for page views per month.

    If 1% asked for the 'investment kit' that's 1,000 and the company cost is $5/kit. If the 'conversion is 5%, that's 5,000 and the cost is $1/kit.

    It's not as if we have an unlimited budget.

    What gives the company the most bang for the buck and the most number of affiliates a certainty of making SOME money for their efforts?

    It's not as if we couldn't just take the $5k and buy PPC keywords or Google Adwords. We could do that easy enough, but would we get the 100,000 reach and the 5,000 or so kit requests we want? The consensus is NO.

    We can get 100K impressions for $5k in any number of different investment magazines. But would we get upwards of 5,000 leads? Experience says NO.

    The PPC argument is that affiliates would be more inclined to promote the deal in a network like SAS for the 3 cents per click, since every clickthru enhances their chances of making the combined income threshold to get a check.

    The fraud component, as Coley points out, is a factor, but is the time factor in dealing with the PPC fraud greater or not than dealing with the fraudulent lead factor?

    The hybrid program just dosen't work with a lead program since the lead payout is a fixed amount and a 1% conversion has NO chance of limiting the $3.00 per hundred payout of the PPC or maximizing revenue.

    You know it's not as easy as I thought to balance both sides of the merchant/affiliate equation and keep parasites out of the mix as I thought.

    As for Hyder saying he can get more...true. But that's because he knows where to get more and we all know it's not part of the SAS fold.

    One big number keeps popping up...5 cents per click for keyword placement minimum on average and it's moving toward 10 cents.

    So the big question becomes how do you get volume of semi-quality traffic for less than that? And not get most of it whacked by parasites if you are a merchant? And even if you are mostly an affilite?

    What is really strange is that as an affiliate of XYZ merchant, you are in effect your own merchant.

    Any suggestions to solve the log jam would be appreciated.

  8. #8
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    Sounds to me like branding is what your client wants.

    I'm not interested.

    Why not just spend your $5,000 on advertising?
    - doesn't sound like it has anything to do with CPA and ROI.

    KM

  9. #9
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    That's what we are trying to do, spend $5k per month...the question is who gets them money and how much.

    I am for paying it to affiliates.
    Haiko is for paying it to him .

    Affiliate marketing is so bizarre, people don't want the money even if the merchant wants to give it to you without even having to make a sale.

    Are you all making so much money per month that you can afford to play the parasite lottery and not have some secondary source of revenue?

  10. #10
    You are in, or you are out ... choose!
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    I'm interested in why you are saying
    "English, Aussie, Canadian and USA based affiliates only.", and
    "Only USA or Canadian based affiliates."

    Are these the geo-markets you are targeting for the respective companies, or do you only want to pay affiliates from those countries regardless of geo-market the affiliates target?

    Of course, you know what I am getting at. For example, I am in Australia, but target the US. So if you want to target Australia as a market, them I am out. But if you only want to pay affiliates within the geo-markets, then I am also out.

    I think you are limiting yourself here.

    Woz

  11. #11
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    JJ,

    quote:
    I am for paying it to affiliates.
    Haiko is for paying it to him .


    Where the heck did that come from? I said your not paying the affiliates enough!
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  12. #12
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    The client pretty much limits us to the geo-area...I'm sure we would make exceptions for known good marketers.

    Haiko...just teasing you....

    As for paying more...we might be able to do that in month 2 or 3 as we get some real life metrics.

    I think we are going to do the 3 cent per click for the first month and then see if we can go to 4 cents per click as the base with a bonus feature.

  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador phillyburbs's Avatar
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    quote:
    I think we are going to do the 3 cent per click for the first month and then see if we can go to 4 cents per click as the base with a bonus feature.



  14. #14
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Your issue here is why would an affiliate want to get $0.03 cents per click from you when they can average around 8 times more than that on Google anyway. Even if your visitors convert to leads at a rate of 1 in 20 your still way behind the market rate

    20 Clicks.

    Google CPC = Revenue of around $4.80
    CPC + Lead = Revenue of $0.6 CPC + $0.8 Lead = $1.40

    You're going to need to offer something far more attractive to bring in people who can drive serious traffic for you.

    Cheers

    Chris
    Affiliate Marketing by AMWSO. Skype - chrissanderson ::: TEL 1-720-336-1784 ::: www.amwso.net
    Join our affiliate programs :Vaper Empire, Iolo, Art of Tea, or See ALL our Programs here

  15. #15
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    They'll find plenty of fraudulent marketers willing to send them 165,000 clicks for $5,000. They'll find very few legitimate marketers willing to let their traffic go that cheaply.
    Michael Coley
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  16. #16
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    I won't put any work into pages to make .03 per click. IF your product fits into current sites you MIGHT get one text link to see if it converts at all. If after a month it doesn't, it's gone.

    I have no incentive to work really hard for .03 a click.

    JJ, you have run numbers in other threads, and if this was posted by someone else *YOU* would be tearing this idea to shreds.
    Deborah Carney
    TeamLoxly.com BookGoodies.com ABCsPlus.com

  17. #17
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    Depending on what you require for quality I would consider joining up with one of those paid surveys affiliates and let them push it for you. They'd be happy to work for 3 cents a click. SAS used to be full of them, I don't know if there are many left.

  18. #18
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    I understand the problems very well.

    This program is more "BRANDING" oriented than sales oriented...the leads are wanted but not the main focus.

    Actually we could care less if you ran an adsense banner along with our offer.

    In fact I have been doing that in the testing and the overall return is excellent from just a single page set up.

    We ran a test on Adwords...nowhere near enough volume of click thrus to warrant the cost.

    We have a committment of $60k from the company with a $5,000/month limit.

    We want to do it right, because we have access to a REALLY big company to do the same thing and they would be spending 5 times that or more per month if this thing works as a we outlined to them.

    Chris - what is the going rate...I notice that you are not paying affiliates the going rate of say $4.80 per 20 clicks...you stuff is all on the come.

    3 cents per click - sure thing - is better than you get from 75% or more of the CJ merchants whether you use the 90 day EPC or the 7 day EPC on the come.

    If you go look at the EPC listings on SAS...not many are doing $3.00 EPC for any time frame.

    And sure you can do much better than that for some merchants, but given the nature of the parasite wars, maybe you should have some other irons in the fire.

    If you look at it, Adsense is just another SAS, except they are bigger and command more traffic but you are limited to the amount you make based on your click thrus per visitor rate not what they Adsense pays.

    Loxly says she wouldn't build a page for 3 cents per click...and neither would I, but I sure would put a link up in a prominent place on a targetted page that has an Adsense banner, and a CPA offer in the same niche.

    Then if I get 100 visitors to that page, I can get maybe 25 click thrus to the Adsense and 3 cent deal and maybe 25 to the CPA deal and make a $1 to $2 a day without ever making a sale...if I make just one CPA sale and say it pays $20 in commisssion. The page is bringing in $60 to $80 or so per month per 3,000 visitors - 5+ cents per visitor. Make 4 sales and you are knocking down $140 or so for 3,000 - a good EPC for sure.

    The name of the affiliate game is to make money. I am certain that if the networks charged all the merchants 1 cent per click to be paid to affiliates against commissions there would be almost NO fraud on the networks.

    CPC has it's draw backs and so does CPA. But the key to long term viability in our opinion is that affiliates need to make some money for their efforts or they will not work for you in any way. 100 affiliates consistently making $30 per month for a company is better than 1,000 making ZERO.

    As for why we don't go to the survey folks etc...been there done that, got screwed.

    At one time we paid out over $65,000/year to our CJ affiliates...and were happy to do it...but when CJ went CPA, these same affiliates lost all their income.

    The game is now much more dishonest than it was 3 years ago.

    You decide if you want the money or not.

    The questions everyone has to ask that is in the game is

    A - "How much am I making from all sources per visitor to my website?"

    B - "How much am I spending from all sources per visitor to my website?"

    Subtract B from A...that's the bottom line per visitor to YOUR site.

    Hopefully it's a PLUS number...hard to do these days when well over 50% of sales are hijacked by parasites or other fraud.

    By the way you can get these stats for Google, Yahoo, Ask Jeeves, Value Click and any other publically traded companies from their annual or quarterly reports.

    These reports tell you total site visitors, total revenue and total expenses.

    Do the math. Become enlightened.
    You have to be a total moron to do CPA.

  19. #19
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Jersey Jean:
    This program is more "BRANDING" oriented than sales oriented...the leads are wanted but not the main focus.
    Branding should pay CPM. Paying CPC for branding is just looking for suckers, as the creative is usually designed to NOT get clicks.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jersey Jean:
    In fact I have been doing that in the testing and the overall return is excellent from just a single page set up.
    Why not just run AdSense and SKIP the branding? Surely you get far more than 3 cents per click through AdSense.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jersey Jean:
    3 cents per click - sure thing - is better than you get from 75% or more of the CJ merchants whether you use the 90 day EPC or the 7 day EPC on the come.
    Maybe you're happy with 3 cents per click, but most affiliates try to focus on merchants that generate far more than that. For the past three months, I've averaged over 30 cents per click with CJ merchants, with some merchants as high as $2.20 per click.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jersey Jean:
    If you look at it, Adsense is just another SAS, except they are bigger and command more traffic but you are limited to the amount you make based on your click thrus per visitor rate not what they Adsense pays.
    AdSense and affiliate marketing are totally different.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jersey Jean:
    I am certain that if the networks charged all the merchants 1 cent per click to be paid to affiliates against commissions there would be almost NO fraud on the networks.
    That's just preposterous. It would GREATLY INCREASE the fraud. Why do you think CJ moved away from CPC? Because of all the fraud it brings.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jersey Jean:
    hard to do these days when well over 50% of sales are hijacked by parasites or other fraud.
    What a huge exaggeration. Most people have pegged the number at 20% or less. Look at the total commissions that the parasites earn and the total commissions paid through affiliate marketing, and you'll realize that it's probably even less than that.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jersey Jean:
    You have to be a total moron to do CPA.
    Whether it's a CPC program where you're guaranteed to make only $0.03 CPC or a CPA program that averages an effective $0.03 CPC, or an affiliate program that averages an effective $0.03 CPC, the "moron" is the one who settles for so little. There are MANY programs out there that produce considerably better results.
    Michael Coley
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  20. #20
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    quote:
    This program is more "BRANDING" oriented than sales oriented


    Then you should probably look outside of the AM channel to meet your needs. Affiliates are a sales force. JMO.

  21. #21
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    quote:

    Do the math. Become enlightened.
    You have to be a total moron to do CPA.


    And I thought your heart was in the right place until you said that!

    Anyway, we're only affiliates, we don't do math, do we?.

  22. #22
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Jersey Jean:
    This program is more "BRANDING" oriented than sales oriented...the leads are wanted but not the main focus.



    BTW, I think I said that several posts ago. Doesn't matter how long you argue, affiliate marketers are telling you what we think - we do sales. Maybe some are interested in branding but not many.

    Our average adsense revenues are 25c per click and I'm not about to put up a link offering 3c, no matter how big your budget.

    You do the math.

  23. #23
    ABW Ambassador phillyburbs's Avatar
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    ... nevermind ...


  24. #24
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    1. Not everyone is an Adsense affiliate.
    2. Averaging a quarter from adsense is good, but what's the percentage of adsense clicks to total traffic. Not even close to a penny.
    3. Try doing adsense in email or a newsletter.

    In any case we got the fuds today and should be up sometime next week.

    And you all should go look up the stuff I pointed our in the quarterly reports of the SE and ValueClick.

    Affiliates are getting so screwed it's almost makes you want to quit...I mean really big time screwed....these guys are making the same as the print and tv media per impression....affiliates are getting less than 1% of the take.
    l
    Sales....we don't sell product, we sell the visitors to our sites on going to some merchants site and the merchant does the selling...

    Unless you are actually selling the stuff and shipping it out you are just selling a click to the merchant...

    That's the way it works in the real world...everyone but the guy selling the merchandise is just selling a click...

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