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  1. #1
    Sgt. Joe Friday frank3iii's Avatar
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    On advice from one of the helpful members here at ABW, I installed the Firefox browser on my PC.

    I found it to be a very nice alternative to IE. Small footprint, fast, easy to install and configure. I didn't make it my default browser, but have been useing it to surf around.

    Last month I had occasion to go to one of my sites while Firefox was loaded.

    Holy Carp! What happened to my lovingly handcrafted pages? It looked like they were put together by "Joe Pumpkin and the Manure Fork Five".

    <rant>
    Why in the ricky rack bumfuzzled ever-expanding universe don't the major browsers read the stylesheet and deliver similar results?
    </rant>

    I could not for the life of me get the page to look even close to the same. I had used css extensively to build my sites. Emphasis on had.

    I finally (after three weeks of nightly work) got them to look similar by installing the Netscape7 browser and making tables with the tools included in that package.

    My banners don't jump off the monitor any more, and the buttons and boxes are more or less where they belong. But, even with that work, they all three deliver different font sizes and table borders.

    Unsolicited advice= If you are fairly new to this web authoring business, install several browsers on your home unit. At least use IE, Netscape, and Firefox. Check your results in each browser before settling for your design.

    I hate to think what a mess my pages are in Opera. I'll wait a while on that though. Opera users are a very small minority according to my log files.

    Frank
    "Just the facts, Ma'am." Sgt. Joe Friday, Dragnet

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador
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    Here are my browser stats from one site and I'm not about to worry with cross browser support.

    There are many here that tell affiliates to change to a different browser to avoid parasites and I've even seen it said to tell your visitors to switch as well. Be carefull what you reccommned to your visitors because the work / reward efforts involved with dealing with cross browser functionality is often ignored from webmasters and the consumer would very likely end up saying "anyone that would recommend this crap" is full of it themselves!

    1. Internet Explorer 6.0
    6931 71.63 %

    2. Netscape 5.0
    738 7.63 %

    3. AOL IE 9.0
    550 5.68 %

    4. Internet Explorer 5.5
    486 5.02 %

    5. AOL IE 8.0
    188 1.94 %

    6. Internet Explorer 5.01
    179 1.85 %

    7. Internet Explorer 5.0
    172 1.78 %

    8. Unknown
    76 0.79 %

    9. AOL IE 7.0
    74 0.76 %

    10. AOL IE 6.0
    33 0.34 %

    11. Internet Explorer 5.23
    30 0.31 %

    12. AOL IE 5.0
    23 0.24 %

    13. Internet Explorer 5.22
    21 0.22 %

    14. Netscape 4.0
    20 0.21 %

    15. Internet Explorer 4.01
    19 0.20 %

    16. Netscape 3.01
    18 0.19 %

    17. Internet Explorer 5.16
    13 0.13 %

    18. Internet Explorer 5.14
    11 0.11 %

    19. Internet Explorer 5.17
    11 0.11 %

    20. Netscape 4.79
    10 0.10 %

    21. Internet Explorer 5.21
    8 0.08 %

    22. Netscape 4.5
    6 0.06 %

    23. Netscape 4.7
    4 0.04 %

    24. Netscape 4.73
    4 0.04 %

    25. Netscape 4.04
    4 0.04 %

    26. Internet Explorer 4.0
    4 0.04 %

    27. Netscape 4.78
    3 0.03 %

    28. Netscape 4.76
    3 0.03 %

    29. Netscape 3.0
    3 0.03 %

    30. Netscape 4.75
    3 0.03 %

    31. Opera 7.50
    3 0.03 %

    32. Netscape 4.51
    3 0.03 %

    33. Opera 7.23
    3 0.03 %

    34. Netscape 4.72
    3 0.03 %

    35. Netscape 4.77
    3 0.03 %

    36. Netscape 4.08
    2 0.02 %

    37. Internet Explorer 5.13
    2 0.02 %

    38. Opera 6.01
    1 0.01 %

    39. Netscape 4.02
    1 0.01 %

    40. Internet Explorer 5.12
    1 0.01 %

    41. Netscape 2.0
    1 0.01 %

    42. Netscape 4.8
    1 0.01 %

    43. Internet Explorer 5.2
    1 0.01 %

    44. Opera 6.05
    1 0.01 %

    45. Netscape 4.61
    1 0.01 %

    46. Internet Explorer 3.0
    1 0.01 %

    47. Internet Explorer 5.15
    1 0.01 %

    48. Internet Explorer 4.5
    1 0.01 %

    49. Internet Explorer 2.0
    1 0.01 %

  3. #3
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Uh oh, H must be entering a freezing period.

    I agree with Happypoon...
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador buy_online's Avatar
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    Poon and Leader have it.

    If you design for the lowest common denominator you will spend you entire life making it just right. You might make W3 happy, but one also has to look at what HTML standards are used in some of the "other" browsers. Man, if they can't interpret a style-sheet correctly, then what are we to do?

    Sounds like a commercial for IE, but again - I design for "most" of the browsers, not all.

    Having said that, I use Opera and avant regularly

    Business is business.

    Fred

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    I think the people who use these non-IE browsers are used to sites looking like cr@p! I use Opera and Netscape 4.-something to check my pages, and I figure if they resemble the real deal even a little bit, it's good enough.

    There just aren't enough people to justify making the pages look good for everyone. At one point, back when I thought Netscape might be a competitor, I had separate pages for IE and NS. I returned whichever page was designed for that browser. NO MORE! I don't have the time or the inclination.

    If people want to see what my site is supposed to look like, they can come visit using IE.

    Andy

  6. #6
    I like traffic lights
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    Actually, if you design your style sheet correctly, it can handle pretty much whatever CSS compliant browser you through a page at.

    And the ones that break the most are IE, so what you've actually been doing is busting your CSS to make it work properly with IE (and thus causing problems with the more CSS compliant browsers).

    Recommended browsing:

    http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/

    They have a style sheet there that fixes a lot of the problems caused by IE. If you use that style sheet, and it looks OK in IE, it'll probably work in the rest as well.

    I especially like http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edg...iral/demo.html

  7. #7
    Sgt. Joe Friday frank3iii's Avatar
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    Poon--Here are my stats for yesterday on the site I had problems with:

    1 979 41.24% MSIE 6.0
    2 575 24.22% Mozilla/5.0
    3 319 13.44% Yahoo! Slurp
    4 245 10.32% msnbot/0.11
    5 59 2.49% ia_archiver
    6 33 1.39% TravelNow_Template_Robot
    7 32 1.35% CJNetworkQuality;
    8 31 1.31% MSIE 5.5
    9 15 0.63% LinkWalker
    10 11 0.46% Zeus 69728 Webster Pro
    11 10 0.42% Googlebot/2.1
    12 6 0.25% MSIE 5.0
    13 6 0.25% SurveyBot/2.3 (Whois
    14 5 0.21% Ask Jeeves/Teoma)"
    15 5 0.21% Mozilla/3.01 )

    As you can see, I have a larger % of Mozilla users than you do. So the need for Mozilla users to get it as close to looking good as can be.

    Andy--If you had seen the site before I fixed it you would have broken a thumb trying to hit the back arrow.

    Drewbert--Right you are. I started out by using the Glish box model and graduated up to the 'boxless' standard back in January. I just didn't realize that IE (my default) was not showing me the real deal.

    Eric Meyer has done a lot for the css1 and 2 conventions. I'll redo the site after the major rebuild which is in progress on another server.

    Thanks to all for your comments.

    Frank
    "Just the facts, Ma'am." Sgt. Joe Friday, Dragnet

  8. #8
    Full Member
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    If you want the ultimate in CSS go to

    http://www.csszengarden.com/

    where, with a click of a mouse, you can change the CSS for the site and it looks totally different.
    If you are feeling really adventurous you can even submit your own css scheme.

    ALso it has a really good CSS links page.

    However if you want to look for some nice, easy to understand stuff about using CSS to make cross browser compatible sites then my best recommendation is The Layout Reservoir at
    http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/

    Les

    PS
    I used to be a great Netscape fan but for the last couple of years have given in and use IE both for my own browsing and the yardstick for site design.

  9. #9
    ABW Ambassador CrazyGuy's Avatar
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    Frank

    Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater ...

    Are you sure those Mozilla hits are real people and not one or more 'bots?

  10. #10
    Sgt. Joe Friday frank3iii's Avatar
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    I don't think I made myself clear. I'm not suggesting anyone change their browser to or from any one or the other.

    My HTML editor allows me to 'view in browser'. My default browser is IE, so all of my design is built around what I see in the default. I made the entire site with css. No tables.

    When I viewed the site with Firefox, it looked really bad. So I got it fixed. Looks good in IE. Looks good enough in Firefox and Netscape.

    All I really intended with the start of this thread was to vent, and inform any interested members that you could fix a problem like I had.

    Websmith--I like zengarden too. Very nice stuff there.

    CrazyGuy--No critters were harmed in the making of this site. Nope, I'm not sure the hits are from real folks. At least on that report. I do know from my logs that there are lots of visitors with mozilla browsers.

    Now I'm confident that any visitors with Netscape loaded will see a decent representation and might stay long enough to buy something.

    How would I tell if a bot was loaded with Mozilla?

    Frank
    "Just the facts, Ma'am." Sgt. Joe Friday, Dragnet

  11. #11
    ABW Ambassador CrazyGuy's Avatar
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    Frank - if it was fairly easy for you to fix your design to work with multiple browsers then that was probably worth doing anyway.

    My alert was in the context of not knowing what logs you're looking at and how they're being analysed. However, as I understand it, while the user agent is fixed in the code of browsers liek IE and Netscape - if you're a spider, bot, other piece of software, you can decide how you identify yourself in the http headers. It's just text that is sent out when you ask the server for a page.

    For historical reasons, it seems many used "Mozilla" as they could be pretty sure in the early days that they would look like surfers to the web server and be allowed to browse/index/etc. They aren't actually "loaded with" Mozilla, they're just pretending to be a regular browser. In fact, I think in the early days, IE identified itself as "Mozilla" in the same way.

    These days, many bots id themselves more clearly, but stats packages vary in what info they use to identify bots (if they do at all).

    So, a lot of stuff I'm not expert on, but I'd be pretty sure a combo of certain bots and certain server stats packages could lead you to believe you had a lot of Mozilla surfers when you don't. And your numbers seemed awfully high.

    Other indicators of bots would be lots of hits from the same IP, spikes in hits.

  12. #12
    Sgt. Joe Friday frank3iii's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CrazyGuyâ„¢:
    So, a lot of stuff I'm not expert on, but I'd be pretty sure a combo of certain bots and certain server stats packages could lead you to believe you had a lot of Mozilla surfers when you don't. And your numbers seemed awfully high.

    Other indicators of bots would be lots of hits from the same IP, spikes in hits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The items in your quote above lead me to believe you are precisely correct. I do have a lot of hits from the same (or very closely related) IP's, and they are in bunches. Spikes indeed.

    Could they be from a privately run bot? As opposed to one of the normal search engines?

    I didn't know any of those things. Thanks for sharing.

    Frank
    "Just the facts, Ma'am." Sgt. Joe Friday, Dragnet

  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador CrazyGuy's Avatar
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    Could be a "private" 'bot, but more likely just to be from one of a million minor SEs.

    You might be able to find something by googling the IPs - there are people out there who spend a lot of time documenting the footprints of all the different spiders. Good chance they've come across it before.

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