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  1. #1
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Hi All

    John followed up on his promise to take a look at 180 from the other side of the tabe. Thank you John and thank you everyone who stuck their neck out to add their voice to this aricle. Linda, Kellie, Ben and others,

    Article here

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...180folo02.html

    Cheers

    Chris
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  2. #2
    http and a telephoto
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    Great article Chris, get them to hang themselves I love the spin the CEO tried to put on the accusations.

    On the other hand, I guess I will only promote Linkshare programs that can assure me they don't participate in the 1800 program....
    Deborah Carney
    TeamLoxly.com BookGoodies.com ABCsPlus.com

  3. #3
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    Nice article.

    Go Utah, Go FTC.

  4. #4
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    Well i'm glad 2 c my state taking the lead hope they are going to practice what they preach. All it needs now is to go WWW. wide.

  5. #5
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Who ever's running this Utah campaign has my vote in the presidential elections....if I had a vote that is

    Cheers

    Chris
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  6. #6
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Linda - 5starAffiliatePrograms's Avatar
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    Yes thanks to Chris, Kellie and Linda Woods for getting the reporter's attention and giving him food for this 2nd article. I think it will help bring more light to this issue.

  7. #7
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    It would be nice if OverStock's CEO had some input into this Utah legislation. They were the only Utah corporation to have a law suit against the BHO's.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  8. #8
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    quote:
    It would be nice if OverStock's CEO had some input into this Utah legislation

    Overstock has 1-800 as an affiliate since they claim they have changed their ways as far as Overstock affiliates are concerned.

    You don't ask someone harboring a fugitive to help draft anti-crime legislation.

    Wayne

  9. #9
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    Yes thanks to those that helped ensure both sides were covered. I am however left a little confused by the articals.

    The first one stated 18 million in revenue and the second one stated almost 20 million "in sales". Obviously, there is a big difference between the two figures. Assuming that it's 18 million "in sales" and even if the average commish is say 7% (which I doubt), thats 1.25 million profit basically. I have a hard time believing that with "30 millon installs" they are making "less than $1 in sales per year" for their user base.

    Either the people who invested in them didn't analize this or the artical is wrong and the 18 million last year was profit which seams more likely. Just how much sales would need to be hijacked for them to earn 18 million dollars last year?

    If anyone who has talked with John can get the revenue / sales figure clarified it would be appreciated. My own perspective is that "it aint total sales they are talking about".

  10. #10
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Linda - 5starAffiliatePrograms's Avatar
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    Poon, I just posted this message in the 5 Star forum because B found 180 popping on Irvs with Performics links even though Irvs closed the Performics program months ago and I expired 180 from CJ months ago.

    See the thread here: http://abw.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tp...8353#694108353

    Can 180 still overwrite other affs cookies even after they have been expired from programs?

    Here's what I asked B. Reposting here cuz I know she will read this forum.

    -------------------------------------------

    Hey B,

    IMPORTANT - Your wise opinion or advice please. I was doing some more 180 research in the PWare forum and came across the PURCHASEPOST.com site which I guess lists all 180's merchants.

    I expired 180 from ALL my programs long ago, yet my merchants are still listed on thier site as well as some other merchants who I know expired 180 also.

    If they are still popping Irvs from Performics links that have not been generating rev for them, as well as all these other merchants that have epired them months ago, then they are obviously not keeping track and removing programs from their site or software in a timely fashion once they are canned.

    So here's the question. Even though 180 is not making money from these links, when they pop can they still overwrite other affiliate's cookies? Do you have ncase on your computer and could you test this?

    Cuz if this is the case, honest affs are still losing commish even if it's not going to 180. And if that's the case then merchants need to band together and get 180 to remove them from their site and their software or do a cease and desist or something so they can't continue to pop once the relationship is terminated.

    Please let me know if you can test this and what you find out. Or maybe Poon with his cookie setting detection software can help.

    ------------------------------------------

    If they ARE still popping after they have been expired and are not updating the software to remove merchants then maybe this is even more ammunition. If a bunch of merchants do a cease & desist and they don't comply because they can't change all the software that's already out there then maybe there is an actionable case or something?

  11. #11
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    This issue could likely go a couple of different ways based on what I can think of. Here are some things to consider.

    1) When Performics was dropped, did the merchant remove the code that looked across multiple networks to see who got the last click and gets credit for the sale?

    If Irv's "or anyone else" with dropped networks is still considering them in their "who gets credit for the sale" logic, it could effect someone getting proper credit. IE: Last click is 180 via performics yet the program is not there, no commish would be paid. If the dropped networks cookie is not considered, it would not effect commish unless........

    2) Does the clicked on link generate the corresponding cookie or one for another network? This may sound strage but consider that a Blair link via performics was reported to have written a cj cookie via some parasite a long time ago (and the parasite had a connection with cj and performics) - Ya think performics was PO'd . Networks run a strong chance of getting sales lost when merchants run across multiple networks as well. I'll speculate that whatever network increases the tiered percentage for a merchant the most or offers some kind of incentive wins this battle and the ones that don't - well they get screwed our of lost sales too. The parasites could implement a number of methods to spread sales across multiple networks "if they desired to" depending on different conditions.

    It's entirely possibly that whoever is the front for the parasite leaves the "expired networks link" up but could still hope that the parasite they partner with is still loaded and redirects via another networks link. You may think they are just being lazy while they are doing what they really want to do - get the consumer to your site so they can still overwrite the link via the other networks valid link.

    I'll willing to bet they update network links in thier parasite modules better than they do on sites that serve as a front for them.

  12. #12
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Yes, a thank you goes out to John Cook for doing a follow-up article. I'll be sending him a follow-up email shortly.

    quote:
    It would be nice if OverStock's CEO had some input into this Utah legislation. They were the only Utah corporation to have a law suit against the BHO's.


    I would hope to see someone who has had a more consistent stance on parasiteware involved in input regarding legislation.

    @Poon...

    The difference in the #'s you are seeing could be the difference in gross(sales) vs net(revenue). Also I think you are misinterpreting the use of "sales" here. That is 180's 'sales'. Remember they earn money via their own commission payout through being an affiliate themselves and from allowing others to advertise through them. Both of these revenue bases would be 180's "sales." I don't believe sales in this context is dollar amount of sales generated to the merchants. As far as the 30M installs. This is a question I brought up to John in my email to him after the first article. Was that the total # of installs that n-case has done, but not reflecting active installs due to the uninstalls? It seems that he asked the question and the answer was

    quote:
    Of the estimated 31 million people with n-Case on their computers, Sawicki said relatively few have complained. He declined to say what percentage of people uninstall the software in the first few days after they download it.


    The $$ amount across the user based would have to be more the average active installs operating.

    @Linda...I will answer that in your forum since that is where the issue was originally brought up.

  13. #13
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    Excellent Article!

  14. #14
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    I'd encourage everyone to send John a thank you/postive feedback, he got some serious kicking after the first article and from what I hear some mails were over the top, and don't help the cause, we need reporters to see Affiliate Marketing for what it really is "a professional business", lets make sure he knows we appreciate him taking a look at the underbelly of 180.... he might be encouraged to do more on other systems.

    Cheers

    Chris
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  15. #15
    Member mikew's Avatar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Chris - WSO:
    I'd encourage everyone to send John a thank you/postive feedback,
    Chris


    I sent mine Chris! Got a short but nice response too promising to keep on the story and asking for more info as it becomes available.

  16. #16
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Received a very favorable response from John to my follow-up email. I'm sure I'll be communicating with him some more in the future.

    BTW..he says the response to the articles has been "overwhelming."

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