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  1. #1
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    Please keep this one clean and on topic.

    Tommy
    180solutions.com

  2. #2
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    As I said previously, I will answer questions regarding what we do over here at 180solutions about twice daily. Please be sensitive to the fact that there are about 50 of you and 1 of me, so your responses are not going to be as interactive as I am sure you would like, but I will try my best.

    Thanks,
    Tommy
    180solutions.com

  3. #3
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Couple questions Tommy now I have your attention.

    I'm working on educating merchant cart/ecatalog hosting companies on the security vulnerabilities and perils of spyware/adware installed on merchant AM's systems. Most affiliate enabled merchants do not have the luxury of a OverStock.com or TigerDirect to have a informed IT department running proprietary ecommerce servers. To the detriment of the entire ecommerce community the BHO's have, and still do, compromise the secure vaults of these cart/Catalog hosting firms once the BHO gets past the username/password login.

    What has 180Solutions/nCase done to disable their spyware and open backdoor trojan horse application when encountering a secure merchant server URL??


    Why does 180Solutions/nCase purposely require the IP# and firewall port be exposed to their prying eyes in order to download the application removal tool.

    Are you a member of the IAB (Internet Advertising Bureau) and the DMA (Direct Marketing Association)???
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  4. #4
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    So that this thread can be a place for those who know nothing about 180Solutions to come and learn; can a moderator please remove all posts that do not pertain to 180Solutions legitimate questions. Let's not ruin this thread

  5. #5
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    Can you explain to me how a "rogue" distributor can install your application without warning and proper notification? Shouldn't the application itself force that acknowledgement? Or do you really mean to say, they actually redo the install themselves?

    That you provide them with a valid install, and instead they back-engineer it to remove any warnings and create their own install?

    And if zango is such a great application on its own, why the need to bundle it with anything? Shouldn't it be flying off the shelves on its own?

    Chet

  6. #6
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    Can you please provide instructions on how to remove 180/n-case from a PC without having to purchase pest removal software or without having to reformat the hard drive?

  7. #7
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Moderators please remove Julian's post above as my questions get right to the point of the FTC and cybercriminal attack on spyware/adware operators like 180Solutions. Wake up idiots! No words, during this weeks FTC meeting to muzzle these parasites, ever addressed their commission hijacking or stealing practices. Legislation never will hinge upon the plight of the poor poor affiliate sheeple, who have never been more then a rag tag group with no voice before ABW.

    It will hinge entirely upon data mining for profit, privacy violations, and security holes leading to identity theft. The entire legal BHO subject is focused, as Tommy knows, upon hidden installs, security compromises, privacy info peddling, re-infestation, un-install routines and consumer deceptive install routines. The FTC would like simple labeling on Spyware/Adware downloads/bundles similar to what is put on a pack of cigarettes.

    Most Merchants and AM's here are so ignorant they never realized their computer systems can give open access,, via the BHO backdoors... to their entire customer base, stats, and credit card info....LOL.

    http://www.cdt.org/privacy/spyware/
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  8. #8
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    Here are the answers to questions from yesterday:

    Tommy
    180solutions.com

    cditty

    We don’t take visitors away from your site. There is no way that we can tell a user buy it from this site and not that one. If users don’t find value in the offers we present, then they don’t buy anything and we don’t make any money. We are simply presenting the user with another option at the time. Look at it from the user’s perspective – how can saving them money or providing something of additional value like free shipping not be beneficial? We don’t target publishers’ sites, because it doesn’t make sense for us to compete in that type of manner. All of our offers are triggered by keywords which in turn bring up relevant ads.



    Connie Berg

    ISP’s are entirely different all together, we are not talking about having the connection and service provider costs covered, but instead offer content to people for free. There are several sites out their that have not figured out a way to monetize their user base, ie banner ads just don’t pay the bandwidth costs needed to distribute their new cartoon, video, etc. It is original content on the Internet that we want to keep free. I agree with you that commercials on tv don’t pay your cable bill, but imagine how high your cable bill would be without commercials.



    Julian

    I am not here to “win over” people as you say, but instead keep in touch with the rumors that run rampant on these boards and allow you folks to have an open forum directly with us.



    loxly

    Like I have said before, I am here to answer your questions, if you have already made up your mind on us then that is completely fine, but any questions that you have are fair game. I agree with you that the Utah bill has potential influences on our business, but if you read the bill it is poorly written and will in essence block a lot of software due to its generalities. Ever heard of a thing called AIM, imagine not being able to use that in Utah?



    happypoon

    Regarding encryption of the data, the simple fact is that it is too client intensive to run the scripts on the users end, so instead of transmitting an unsecured data chunk (which real spywares could grab) we secure it to our servers and delete all non-applicable information. All of this is clearly spelled out in our privacy policy available at any of our websites.



    BLFH (Ms. B)

    I agree with you that the people on here are more educated then the normal audience and that was the whole point of me wanting to get active on these boards. I know that I can learn a lot from you guys and vice versa. Spin is not what I am here for, but getting your questions answered is.

    - We are currently using a small sample of our user base for data collection, which simply includes anonymous, aggregated click streams and no personally identifiable information. This information is used by well known market research firms for website traffic reporting.

    - Our software is strictly based on kw’s. When it comes to adult content those keywords are looked over with the finest comb possible and we know that the worst thing we can do is show an adult website to a G rated user. The importance of this is stressed so much that I or another campaign manager would be fired if we loaded an advertiser’s inappropriate kw. We also only work with websites with R-rated landing and will likely include controls in future versions of our applications to allow users to opt-out of adult oriented advertising.

    - We require the end user to go to our website so we can unregister their anonymous unique identifier. Also our distribution partners are often paid on how long the user has our software installed and this allows us to know how long the anonymous user has had the software installed.

    - As far as more technical questions I would have to forward that on to someone here.

    - Not sure who Kevin is, but n-case will be getting replaced in the near future.

    - Zango is a way for web publishers to keep their websites free through their partnership with us. We show sponsored websites to end users and share that revenue with those publishers. The quid pro quo is not much different then with any other publishing media – get free or reduced cost content in exchange for receiving advertising. I encourage any and all of you to actually go through the Zango installation process with any of our web-based partners to see how we message users. There are a number of partners listed on Zango.com.



    nyfalcon

    We are not spyware and the bills being discussed will actually show that, because it will get those bad players out of the space. The bills are really going to be geared towards spyware applications, such as the ones that steal your credit card information, bank account info, etc. As far as excluding your webpage, how are things going with google? Recently they opened up all of their targeting to not allow a brand to have exclusivity. Is that something that is causing waves within the affiliate community? Regarding the pop up, it is your website. I agree with you that there will not be a debate once the service packs come out, similar to spam blockers it will only filter out the bad marketers.



    buy_online

    I can look into this for you.



    Chief_Beef_aka_Fy_Dolla

    Here is our support number if you need any more help uninstalling 1.800.270.4927. I am very sorry to hear that it was so difficult for you.



    jimbo2002

    Like I said before our system is based on keywords and will bring up the webpage in correspondence with the users search, so it all comes down to how a merchant tracks a cookie. We are not making the offers available on another affiliates site, although it might be possible if there is a search function on the site and the keywords match an offer in our system. Our Linkshare account is in compliance with the manners in which they allow affiliates to do business.



    Mokum

    I am not exactly sure what you are talking about with the primecuts question. Are you seeing ads?



    Chez Noir

    We bundle with products so they create the install, show us a clean version, and have the potential of doing something completely different. Please reference the previous thread that I posted regarding how to tell who installed n-case on your computer. Zango is a good product and we’ll continue to look for websites that it is well suited to partner with.



    Chris –WSO

    We are planning on being at the Linkshare symposium. Not sure on the AffSummitt. I can’t tell you how many active accounts we have running with Linkshare. How a merchant tracks their sales is completely up to them. We cannot force a user to take action in any window, what they do is on their own, we just give them the opportunity to comparison shop. We are in compliance with Linkshare.



    BLFH (Ms. B)

    I am not sure which domains you are talking about, could you be more specific. Regarding any keywords in our system we have an open market bidding system, similar to a google or overture, which will allow the highest bidder priority. How does targeting abw pose a problem? I am not sure which offers you are talking about specifically, but if I was an advertiser that wanted to reach the affiliate community with an offer that I had, what better place? Our targeting simply gets into the minds of the consumer and goes by patterns of behavior. Much like Amazon builds a treasure chest on your recent searches.



    Andy

    Remember we don’t collect personal information on any of our users, so we wouldn’t be able to email them. All of our distribution contracts clearly state that a user needs to opt into our software.

    Like I said before, we don’t have a magical software that makes users buy from our offers. We do however give them a real time comparison at the time they are searching for something, so if our offer is better I really cant say. What happens if I go to your site click on a link to bestbuy or something, get all the way to the checkout and decide to go look for a coupon. I google for bestbuy coupons and another site has one, so I click on it and all of a sudden you don’t get credit for my sale even though I am your customer. The second sites offer was better…is there an argument there?

    “Popping up” on someone’s site is strictly a burden of the technology. We are offering a comparison to what a user is currently looking at. On TV, sporting events oftentimes will be sponsored by Bud Light, but during the commercial breaks you get an ad for MGD. Cable is the same as tv as well as radio. Have you looked at a newspaper or a magazine without competitors (comparisons to similar products)? Just in the main section of the paper you get a Verizon, ATT, and Nextel ad.



    Julian

    Not sure if there was a question in there to answer, but I can say that we are not here to get you on our bandwagon, but want to give you at least an understanding of what we do.

    Chief_Beef_aka_Fy_dolla

    We are looking forward to the legislation for the double opt in requirements and on the forefront of already doing this. We agree that this should be in place and it will help filter out the real spywares out there.



    Chez Noir

    Good Analogy at the end.



    Gordon

    As soon as the paranoia subsides I would welcome any questions that you have. We are being upfront with you, but like I said this may not be the right forum for you since you have made up your mind.



    Ecomcity.com

    How can I take everything on these forums seriously if there is going to be racist comments made? Please keep this at an educated level.



    Happypoon

    I wish there were more people working on this, but look at how many posts are up here and calculate how long it would take you to respond. I wish I could be more interactive, but I do have my job to do. This format works the best for both of us.



    Ebudae

    It is completely up to you if you want to not participate in this thread, but please leave this open for the people that actually want to ask questions.

  9. #9
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    Well thank you for the straightforward admission.

    You say that you are popping up offers on affiliate sites, and that you have Linkshare's blessing to do this.

    That is all I need to know the next time Stephen Messer shows up on abewstweb making his grandiose claims of fighting the parasites on our behalf.

  10. #10
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    You claim to offer comparison shopping, but I have seen you popup on an affiliate site that has the same offer - just not flashing in a popup window in front of the end user.

    How is this adding value and not just stealing from affiliates?

    Chet

  11. #11
    pph Expert! Gordon's Avatar
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    quote:
    “Popping up” on someone’s site is strictly a burden of the technology. We are offering a comparison to what a user is currently looking at. On TV, sporting events oftentimes will be sponsored by Bud Light, but during the commercial breaks you get an ad for MGD. Cable is the same as tv as well as radio. Have you looked at a newspaper or a magazine without competitors (comparisons to similar products)? Just in the main section of the paper you get a Verizon, ATT, and Nextel ad
    Tommy, this is a perfect example of your ability and willingness to put a spin on anything and to hell with the truth.

    1/. You know bloody well there is no comparison in any way whatsoever with what you parasites are doing and with what the TV or newspaper or any other advertiing guys are doing.

    The adverting guys, TV and papers etc., take a fee from a merchant and allot him/her a certain amount of time or space for the viewing public to view his/her presentation.

    You assoles just come along and overide our websites, all you do is get your AFFID set in the merchants cookie. What do you think would happen if, to use you examples, Bud Light were running a planned four minute ad during the superbowl and after one minute MDG came along and ran their ad in place of the Bud Light ad? You know bloody well some heads would be rolling at that TV station the same or at the latest the following day. This is a far more realistic to what is happening scenario than the version you are trying to give us.

    So try to give us some real answers and not this spin bullshit, I might not know much about computer stuff but I can spot a dipstick a mile off. You I saw coming a good few miles away.
    One day parasites and their ilk will be made illegal, I bet a few Lawyers will be pissed off when the day comes.
    Mr. Spitzer is fetching it nearer

    YouTrek

  12. #12
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    "Look at it from the user’s perspective"

    You hit the nail on the head. Do you like pop-up advertising? From all the studies and reports i've read 75% of people don't like it, have no idea how it got on their computer and try to uninstall it. Why do you think Pop Up Blockers just continue to grow in popularity? That's your user perspective.

    Was reading this thread:
    http://www.broadbandreports.com/foru...8653~mode=flat

    "According to Bryson Gordon from McAfee Security, 86% of their problem reports from their VirusScan were not viruses but were Adware. They defined 3% as Spyware."

    So i see 2 major problems. One being lawsuits like the 1800Contacts victory over WhenU and VisionDirect. I'm sure there will be more like that and it will be settled in the courts.

    But here's the biggest problem. The end user. They don't like pop-up advertising. Do you disagree with that?

  13. #13
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    Here's the question i really would like your opinion on and it's what it all boils down too.

    End users don't like pop-up advertising. Do you agree or disagree with that?

    Also long term is it really good for merchants to be utilizing this type of advertising? Since most end users don't like it, they will take notice of the merchants they see in those ads. Do you think thats wise, long term?

  14. #14
    ABW Ambassador Nova's Avatar
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    quote:
    Like I said before our system is based on keywords and will bring up the webpage in correspondence with the users search,


    Is this means that keywords queries from search engines?

    So if someone look for SportsFanFare you will pop up?

    So google adds on the left that they make money is being popup too?

    Is this means that you just not pop up on sites but you also pop ups on search queries?


    What COC stand for? Crooks Overwriting Commission
    Don't worry tracking is Infected

    Live life to the fullest, You only get 1 chance. Enjoy it while you can... Nothing last forever!

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador flamingoworld's Avatar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by 180solutions - Tommy:
    Here are the answers to questions from yesterday:

    Tommy
    180solutions.com

    Connie Berg

    ISP’s are entirely different all together, we are not talking about having the connection and service provider costs covered, but instead offer content to people for free. There are several sites out their that have not figured out a way to monetize their user base, ie banner ads just don’t pay the bandwidth costs needed to distribute their new cartoon, video, etc. It is original content on the Internet that we want to keep free. I agree with you that commercials on tv don’t pay your cable bill, but imagine how high your cable bill would be without commercials.



    I cannot imagine any online store ever charging people to shop at their site. That would be totally outrageous.
    So you are saying that by you guys being out there, you are saving shoppers from having to pay to shop at their favorite online stores?

  16. #16
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    Hi Tommy, here is another question:

    You say that you give your distributors incentive based on how long users keep the application active.

    How can a distributor increase the amount of time the user keeps the app active?

    Here are the ones I thought of:

    1. Make it difficult for the user to find uninstall instructions.

    2. Target users who will not be able to follow the instructions.

    3. Hide the fact that the application is getting installed.

    Did I miss any? Is this situation good for the user?

  17. #17
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    Tommy,
    Jimbo makes a good point.

    I'm not one of the elite AMs here, most of my online income comes from my own products. So don't take this as some AM who is afraid you are going to steal his or her commission (go ahead and take my ebay nickel) : )

    But as a consumer, nothing aggravates me more than constant popups! I recently went through one of my PCs because all of the sudden I was getting constant POP UPS and guess what I found? 180solutions in the registry. HOW did that get there? I did NOT install anything (to my knowledge) plus, I didn't see any UNISTALL options, nothing in my add/remove program group! what gives? How am I suppose to REMOVE this stuff? SPYWARE REMOVAL TOOL!

    If the ONLY way you can get an application on a PC is through the BACK DOOR and if the only way a program can be removed from my PC is with a spyware removal tool (or me going into the registry and hand deleting keys) its a very unethical application, PERIOD! If I want this application, I will buy it from the store, otherwise STAY AWAY.

    Once I was able to successfully clean the adware using a spyware remover tool, POOF! no more popups, no more 180solutions.

    I am confident you will find your way back into my registry. I am also confident that the adware removal programs will keep 180Solutions in their database....

    You can paint this anyway you want, but you can't HIDE what 180Solutions is.

    I'm OFF!

  18. #18
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    Tommy,

    Thank you for your response to a couple of my questions. I just used the response by E-mail suggestion as an example. Since you say that wouldn't be possible, knowing that your software IS bundled with a lot of other software, you surely agree there are some who download your software for the other programs, correct?

    So in this instance, it may be on a computer without the end user knowing what it is or why it's there. If you truly want to make sure your software is opt-in, why not make it a built-in function to have the end user agree to its execution via a pop-up window before it finishes installing and activates itself?

    This would be simple and easy to do, and would make sure that only those who truly do want it on their computers have it.

    quote:
    “Popping up” on someone’s site is strictly a burden of the technology. We are offering a comparison to what a user is currently looking at.
    So I build a content page of original copyrighted material on the history of Blue Widgets. You pop up with an ad for bluewidget.com. How is that a comparison? That sounds like an unfair advantage to me. What is the end user going to click on? The flashing new pop-up, or the link buried - HIDDEN - underneath the pop up window?

    You also responded to Connie:
    quote:
    It is original content on the Internet that we want to keep free.
    How do you propose to keep original content on the Internet free when you are removing the ability of original content sites to earn a living?

    Andy

  19. #19
    Prince of Content Vinny O'Hare's Avatar
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    Thank you Tommy for your answers but I can see the spin you are so trying not to do. All it has made me do is start dropping linkshare merchants. I just figured out where they get their name from they share links with parasites

  20. #20
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    Hi Tommy

    I have had 180 and its affiliates using ncase popping on my site in the past few months.
    I also have videos and copies of the cookies of it when it happened. Please don't ask to
    see them, I have no intention of showing you so that your company can figure out how to avoid being caught! But I did send them to the merchants involved and I am happy with the results I got from them. From what I gather your company was not!

    I don't know how much your program cost me in lost sales, I have no way of telling that.
    But suffice it to say I was pretty ticked off especially when the porn popped! I have
    a shopping site not an R rated site.

    No matter how you spin this I will never believe you.

    If Linkshare says you are in compliance then its time for me to drop out of some of
    the merchant programs there excluding a few honest merchants that do not allow
    you and others like you to be in their programs.

    Cazzie

  21. #21
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Hi Tommy

    Follow up questions :

    quote:
    I can’t tell you how many active accounts we have running with Linkshare.


    But certainly more than one correct and not all in your company name correct. Retorical question I know.

    quote:
    How a merchant tracks their sales is completely up to them.


    Not at all, as you know, it's down to the network, and therefore how you exploit the network is very much down to you.

    quote:
    We cannot force a user to take action in any window, what they do is on their own, we just give them the opportunity to comparison shop.


    Ah really, So...lets say I'm surfing merchant.com and a pop up comes up that loads merchant.com. However the second window loads with affiliate tracking in it. And lets say I close the pop up. So you're telling me that the pop up does NOT place tracking on the users PC. I mean as we all know, placing a tracking cookie on a users PC does not require a click, it just requires for the target site to load. Which I believe is in violation of the LinkShare Terms and Conditions. All cookies must be placed as part of a user action I believe..

    quote:
    just give them the opportunity to comparison shop.


    As in the above, if you pop to merchant.com from merchant.com (twice if you like) how does that make for comparison shopping? I must confess the logic behind your statement confuses me somewhat.

    quote:
    We are in compliance with Linkshare.


    Can I quote you on that? And are you really sure?

    Cheers

    Chris
    Affiliate Marketing by AMWSO. Skype - chrissanderson ::: TEL 1-720-336-1784 ::: www.amwso.net
    Join our affiliate programs :Vaper Empire, Iolo, Art of Tea, or See ALL our Programs here

  22. #22
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    What a bunch of hoowie. Your company acts as both the cat burgular and fence for commissionable sales. Your the kidnapper for merchants and fellow affiliates wanting to hijack shoppers from their competitors and you offer NO COMPARISON of the offers I showcase on my pages with your infernal popups. Tommy you could give a crap about sales, saving my shoppers money or time, offering rebates/rewards, while you play a cookie setting/overwrite game of mass numbers.

    You can ignor my questions but they hit right at the heart of why I'll dance on the graves of 180Solutions -Gator-WhenU when the pissed off consumers, you dupe-infect-abuse, give you the same treatment they gave the IAB/DMA spammers and Telemarketers.

    You hijack PPCSE listings, you popup on affiliate sites, you popup on your own merchant sites to set your affiliate ID cookies, you popup on competing sites with no regard to whether your competing advertiser is even competitive. You charge keyword fees as a competitor to Overture and Adwords yet have no SE portal so you interlope on their traffic.

    Regardless of the hype and spin you infected 18 million systems this last year by any means possible and make it as hard as possible to remove your malware/adware/spyware program. Basically your the perfect model for the FTC to attack as an unethical Ad Whore, while collecting your pimping fees from the endless of pool of gorrilla advertisers.

    I love giving assistance to those enities listening to the consumer complaints who have the power to shut your ebiz model down as a menace to ecommerce and consumer/merchant privacy. No sense in going any further as your well aware that you guys utilize every sleezebag trick in the book if it smells of money.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  23. #23
    ABW Ambassador qball0213's Avatar
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    “Popping up” on someone’s site is strictly a burden of the technology.

    ie We haven't figured out how to make our own web site, that gets traffic and makes revenue on it's own. That goodness we created this program to take advantage of all of the "free" content on the internet.

    What I want to see if all of the rave reviews from users, surely if they know the program is there, they would brag about it saving them time or money, right?

  24. #24
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
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    quote:
    Tommy:
    It is original content on the Internet that we want to keep free.


    Can you explain how popping up on MY site of original content - and stealing MY customer from visiting MY store, is helping to keep MY original content free on the Internet?

    lol, I have several original content sites - care to pay the hosting bills?

    Also - how do you intend to handle all the repair bills from people who have had to get professional help to remove your "BHO" off their PC?

    Where can we submit the bills?
    Ebudae


  25. #25
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    quote:

    happypoon

    Regarding encryption of the data, the simple fact is that it is too client intensive to run the scripts on the users end, so instead of transmitting an unsecured data chunk (which real spywares could grab) we secure it to our servers and delete all non-applicable information. All of this is clearly spelled out in our privacy policy available at any of our websites.


    Tommy, your statement serves only as another example of a gross misrepresentation being made. Your url at http://www.180solutions.com/About/Consumer.aspx clearly specifies and I quote "No personally identifiable information is collected or distributed."

    Further, not a single thing was stated concerning you transmitting encrypted information that does contain usernames and passwords or outlining that you disregard such information on your backend servers "which is what your statements here have reflected".

    "All of this is clearly spelled out in our privacy policy available at any of our websites"

    Perhaps you better provide me with a url that backs up what you say instead of providing me with nothing and allowing me to show your website clearly contradicts your statements.

    FYI: I contacted a very popular and reputable anti-spyware company this evening in regards to their privacy threat assessment lacking any details or consideration regarding the transmission of encrypted data. If you have nothing to hide and do not collect personally identifiable information, there is no reason for any data being transmitted in encrypted format.

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