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  1. #1
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    All right kids, out of the pool it is adult swim time.

    Just some quick background; I stopped skateboarding back in the 70’s when Alice Cooper made Marilyn Manson look like Marilyn Monroe. I have spent the last 25 years in business focusing primarily on brand recognition and protection for three Fortune 50 companies. I am fascinated by the outcry I have seen in the affiliate community over Morpheus/Kazaa et al. Lest we forget, the primary promise of the Internet for the retail and advertising community was the ability to reach millions of potential consumers with the touch of a button, for pennies on the dollar.

    That was possible back in 1995 when Yahoo ruled the roost and there were only a few thousand sites to choose from. Since then the Internet has grown to over 150 million users in the U.S. ALONE using MILLIONS of individual sites!!!

    What merchants and Fortune 100 companies have had to do to reach a large audience is make their precious brand available to tens, if not hundreds of thousands of sub par publishers hoping to reach a maximum audience. How many times have I seen an Amazon link on a vampire site!

    If you understand brand awareness you realize with this approach you LOSE CONTROL of your message and product. You do more damage than good. Why do you think companies like J.C. Penney have removed tens of thousands of former affiliates and only deals with a few hundred!! RETURN ON INVESTMENT and BRAND PROTECTION. . Like it or not, Morpheus and Kazaa have amassed over 90 million customers worldwide. Would J.C. Penney be stupid to cut a deal with them??? Or just smarter than Jeff Bezos?

    Outside of America Online, there are very few subscription or membership sites that offer a focused channel for the retail community. And they charge an arm and a leg!! We all have to face the fact that e-commerce and advertising as it exists today is like the Wild Wild West (w.w.w.). You hope and pray by offering your products on tens of thousands of sites you get in front of millions. Well children, it doesn’t work that way.

    While you all sit there complaining, companies are out their building mechanisms for retailers like you to reach a focused group of shoppers. Regardless of the complaining by homemade webmasters who may lose a couple of hundred bucks in beer money, I for one have been looking for the Internet equivalent of “The SuperBowl”. This is the future, and as my kids would say, “Take the red pill!”

    Has anyone heard of AAA? Or AARP? These are groups that secure benefits and rewards for their consumers, and provide retailers ONE PLATFORM to reach tens of millions of potential consumers. Name for me 5 sites that can do that on the Internet. Maybe some of you are too young to realize the value, but trust me, these organizations generate millions in sales for minimal marketing, rewards, and incentives. You should be looking for equivalent programs on the Net and realize the business of your business is business! Too bad if Johnny Rocket.com loses a few dollars. Your job is to make money for your company. The sooner you move out of your parent’s house and pay your own way, you will realize it doesn’t make sense to feed the whole neighborhood. Buy a sandwich for the guy who will make you successful.

    Affiliate Management groups are fighting to prove that their hundreds of thousands of publishing sites are valuable. Why??? Guess what?? Only about 10% of them truly are!! And the advertising and retail community knows that and is beginning to opt out. Why are we protecting sites and publishers that generate nickels and dimes? Unless they can deliver super affiliates, the entire affiliate management model will fail.

    Since the tone of most of the Internet boards is anarchist, I would remind retailers of one thing… You may say Wal-Mart is predatory or damaging, but the CUSTOMER DOESN’T THINK SO! THEY ARE THE BIGGEST COMPANY IN THE WORLD! Who’s stock would you rather own? Wal-Mart or boo.com!

    All the purists rail against Microsoft and talk about how brilliant Apple is. Guess what, Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, and Steve Jobs works for him. BECAUSE WHOEVER HAS THE CUSTOMER WINS. Laugh at America Online as slow and antiquated, meanwhile Steve Case own Time Warner. So keep *****ing while your customers go else where, keep whining about fair or not, and explain to your boss that you walked away from tens of millions of customers at ONE LOCATION just to keep your ideals intact. I for one will go where the customers are and I’ll take your revenue with me. Whether you like it or not, no one has stopped downloading Morpheus or Kazaa and it is time for us to recognize the customer wants these services. It is the MASSES not the CLASSES. Keep telling yourself how idealistic you are, I am going where the customers are.

  2. #2
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    What exactly are you trying to say nancyl? There is no room on the internet for the smaller websites? I have to disagree. Also it wouldn't take much to be smarter than Jeff Bezos.

  3. #3
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Nancy and Seven,

    Welcome

    Haiko
    PS. Nancy, I have been saying what you just did for a year!

  4. #4
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    Haiko, did you read her last paragraph? Unless I'm misreading, it sounds like Nancy is advocating parasiteware -- because that's where the bucks are.

    And, Haiko, I've never seen you say "screw ethics, I'm going for the money".

  5. #5
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    I'll side with Cedric on this one since the one and probably only post by the NancyL character is a plant. Nice trolling effort but missing the real value of the internet. The small 36 million websites add the flavoring missing in the top 20 destination sites. All those properties are just jumping off points to other destinations and by themselves could never even attempt to offer a variety of content to quell the minds of the web surfer. Shopping on the net is a diversion when the impulse stricks someone they need a gift -new watch or the toaster gives up the ghost. At any given moment less than 2 % of those online give a crap about buying anything from you. Merchant banners or text links found at small sites often spur some hidhen desire to look into buying something because that webmaster attracted their attention. The sale potential is not generated by trickery or in your face Popup Ads but by the shopper suddenly switching into the "buying mood" triggered by a creative recommendation.

    80,000 cars might pass by your small jewelry shop daily, but your lucky to get 20 of them to stop and shop.

    NacyL might think it proper to place boards with nails in them to flatten tires on the highway in front of the shop to increase store traffic. She could care less about the inconvience and time expense as long as it doubled her store traffic. Those seeking to use parasite warez or the other scumware offerings ALL think they deserve to corner a percentage of every buck exchanging hands on e-commerce sites. Catering to her wishes by the networks would spell the demise of all ABW members chances of monitizing their sites. The lazy owners of networks like BeFree sure wish they could narrow down their affiliates to just 10 players if they could drive the same volume of transactions. Problems then would comes from the GREEDY 10 cutting out BeFree as a middleman and somehow figuring like Local drug dealers how to eliminate the other 9 from poaching on their territory.

    No one here cares about protecting merchants branding or anything having to do with advertising. We are about sales. If you can sell 1 item for every 100 shoppers we send you then you get our attention. If not ..hit the road jack as you are not deserving of our efforts to showcase your brand.

  6. #6
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    What can be more palpably absurd than the prospect held out of locomotives traveling twice as fast as stagecoaches?
    - The Quarterly Review, England (March 1825)

    This is a quote for Mike the soon to be unemployed webmaster. You to will be quoted as a famous skeptic.

  7. #7
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    Nice one Haiko, looks like we've really rattled the Scumware!

    Wonder if they drew straws?

    And the doomed recruitment attempt is just pathetic.


    I

  8. #8
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    "Has anyone heard of AAA? Or AARP? These are groups that secure benefits and rewards for their consumers..~Nancy L"

    WalMart doesn't reward its customers except by handing them the stuff they bought and THEY are the biggest store in the world, as you pointed out--not AAA, AARP, or any other "rewards" program!

    They also don't put a BARRICADE in front of the door of their competition. They drive the competition out of business with lower prices and the perception of better service.

    I'm also not going to get into a Scumware/Parasite debate since you obviously know we think it sucks, and we can tell that you think it doesn't, and to debate that would be like a dog chasing its tail. (Around and around with no conclusion).

    But I WILL debate your points about brand control and affiliate marketing in general.

    The Wild Wild Web isn't all that different from physical marketing. A place like General Electric sells its light bulbs wholesale to anyone with the money to buy a case or so of 'em. That could be nice, bright, clean WalMart or Dingy Joe's. NO BRAND CONTROL. Yet GE is ONE OF THE BIGGEST COMPANIES IN THE WORLD. They did NOT get that way by being picky about who they deal with. You want to sell their stuff? You got it! "Thank you for your interest, our wholesale distributer is XXXXX and their phone number is XXX-XXXX!"

    NON-SELECTIVITY is common among the world's biggest companies. The only ones I hear of Microsoft, whom you so glowingly speak of, refusing to deal with are their own COMPETITORS!

    As for your claims against affiliate marketing's long-term prospects: look CLOSELY at big WalMart compared to an Internet Affiliate:

    WalMart makes hardly any (if any) of their own stuff. Same with affiliates.

    WalMart deals with "distributers" to get what they sell. We deal with "merchants" to get what we offer. (Same...)

    WalMart's customers pay a price which is higher than WalMart pays for stuff, and the difference is the Profit. Affiliates' customers pay a price which is sufficient to cover our Commission (basically the same principle).

    WalMart puts puny competitors out of business. So do we.

    WalMart STARTED OUT puny. So did we.

    WalMart practically took over the bricks-and-mortar retail world. One of US--AFFILIATES--will seize the internet retail world.

    WE, the affiliates, are uniquely positioned to offer thousands of products from different distributers (merchants) to our customers--just like WalMart offers thousands of products from different distributers (their merchants) to their customers.


    YOU take the Red Pill. You're the one that needs it.

  9. #9
    ABW Adviser Panel Dynamoo's Avatar
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    quote:
    Keep telling yourself how idealistic you are, I am going where the customers are.


    Umm yeah I'll just pop down to the local school with a bag full of drugs then shall I?

  10. #10
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    Dynamoo,
    Were you trying to make a point or did you puke on your keyboard?
    Whether fortunate or unfortunate what ever category you fall in to this seems to be the route the internet is taking. If we choose to not go to the customers because of our beliefs of how the internet should be run then we are isolating ourselves. We can close our eyes and hope it goes away but when we finally open them we will be alone. Now is no time to close our eyes.

  11. #11
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    Hey Seven, did you forget who you were? A question for NancyL and Seven: what is your relationship to each other? Two first-time posters speaking aggressively in the same thread seems like a one-person tag-team to me.

    Dynamoo was making the point that there are some values that are worth a lot more than mere money. Too bad it went over your head! If money is the highest value that drives you, there's not very much substance to your soul.

  12. #12
    ABW Adviser Panel Dynamoo's Avatar
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    Check out the member numbers.. only 2 different.

    Shame I don't have access to the IP addresses for this forum.

    Seven/Nancy let me be blunt.

    Scumware is THEFT because it takes money away from publishers who have gone to considerable time and money to create sites and populate them with relevant ads.

    Scumware capitalises on MY efforts and allows someone else to make money from them - and the vast majority of Scumware programs do this without making it clear to surfers that that is what they are going to do.

    So, I'm paying for hosting and bandwidth and YOU'RE poaching my traffic and getting MY money.

    What you're suggesting is that I ditch my principles and join the scumware league? I don't think so.

    This is a complex legal issue because there are many laws in many different countries that come into play, and most of us small players are waiting for the BIG players to take action and sue someone's asses off.

    Scumware is morally wrong. Scumware is probably unlawful. There are certain things I think any decent human being wouldn't do to make a fast buck, and Scumware is one of them.

  13. #13
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Sounds like the perfume is wearing off the piglets. The scumlords are a closed community to all of us and therefore joining them is not an option. Load up the cannons and shoot to kill these wanks who intend to kidnapp our shoppers. We refuse to be the victims in this tricks for clicks war.

  14. #14
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    Buckworks.com , Dynamoo,Mike,

    Lets get that morning cup of coffee in us and calm down a little. If you are looking to your soul to make you money you may have chosen the wrong career. I have a small online business I run. Not my sole income but I do well with it .If I am going to form an alliance with someone it is going to be a WalMart not a boo.com and if you don’t understand that I guess we have different business practices. I’d be a fool to not take my business to the customer. If you want to be the fool who doesn’t, Good for Me. I hope the top is a lonely place.

  15. #15
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    If you figure out ways to take your business to the customers 1) without deceiving or manipulating them and 2) without stealing them from other sites whose content actually EARNED their business, then more power to you.

    There's lots of room at the top. The people who will enjoy it most up there are those who climbed the ladder by honorable means.

  16. #16
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    I, for one, am not trying to earn "beer money", I'm trying to live! People like you, in effect, put my life in jeopardy & I don't take that lightly.
    quote:
    While you all sit there complaining, companies are out their building mechanisms for retailers like you to reach a focused group of shoppers. Regardless of the complaining by homemade webmasters who may lose a couple of hundred bucks in beer money, I for one have been looking for the Internet equivalent of “The SuperBowl”. This is the future, and as my kids would say, “Take the red pill!”


    I guarantee you the customer would not want these "services" if they knew what was really going on. I hate to say it, but people are stupid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but scumware & parasiteware wouldn't be an issue if people knew they were infected & wanted to be infected.
    quote:
    Whether you like it or not, no one has stopped downloading Morpheus or Kazaa and it is time for us to recognize the customer wants these services.


    I wonder what this person hoped to accomplish by posting this here...a very futile attempt indeed. I interpreted some of your rubbish as saying that branding is bad. Tell this to yahoo, google, overture (changing their name from goto) etc. And, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but there wouldn't be an Amazon.com w/out the smaller publishers selling Amazon's goods on their sites.
    That's all I gotta say 'bout that.

  17. #17
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    So Seven/Nancy, would you be willing to do anything to earn money?

    Because personally I draw the line at theft. Actually I draw the line a lot closer to Ethical than that, but you see what I mean.

    Yeah some people (and I use the term loosely) will do anything for money, but how much good does that do when the writs start flying?

    Would you rob a bank?

    I'm assuming not. How about a small store?

    No?

    If not, its not because of your personal ethics is it? Thats the difference between you and the rest of us. The only thing stops you raiding the local Mom and Pop is the fear of what will happen to your own unlovely behind once you get caught. Whats stopping the *rest* of us is a certain instinctive feeling that we aren't scum. Its not part of our self image.

    The only reason you are willing to rob webmasters is because you think you won't get caught.

    Dream on.

    If I even get a sniff of where your hideout is, I'm promising you that I, personally, will take a personal interest.

    Its tax deductible anyway.


    I

  18. #18
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Here Here ...and these guys or gals think they can perform theft on this loose knit group.

  19. #19
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Cedric:
    Haiko, did you read her last paragraph? Unless I'm misreading, it sounds like Nancy is advocating parasiteware -- because that's where the bucks are.

    And, Haiko, I've never seen you say "screw ethics, I'm going for the money".




    Cedric,

    I have been warning all, for over a year, that these " Duper Affiliates" (Parasiteware(TM) companies) will be the end of affiliate marketing as we know it.

    I have ZERO tolerance for these companies or the merchants who support/cohort them, as I type this message, I am fighting a battle about Looksmart on the merchant board who think they are better than sliced bread; They don't care where Looksmart gets their traffic(Kazaa), that they charge the $199 and then become affiliates (double dipping) or even force some of them to pay per click, because they "perform" for them as a "Duper Affiliate".

    I am begging the merchants to draw the line of ethics and ask them to stick to it!

    I will NEVER say "screw ethics, I'm going for the money"

    Haiko
    PS It was late so my answer was vague, which may have lead to the confusion in my response.

  20. #20
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    So where do I find out who the Looksmart scum merchants are?

    I've got the hang of Google now and feel like giving out a little free publicity...


    I

  21. #21
    ABW Adviser Panel Dynamoo's Avatar
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    To paraphrase a key saying in my RL business.. ethics is about doing the right thing even if no-one if looking.

    Nancy: there is no "red pill". The red pill is only for those who can be in a position to manipulate and cheat others out of money.

    Seven: of all people you choose to critcise Jeff Bezos (and by implication Amazon). Say what you like about Amazon, these people are busting their privates to make themselves the world's largest online retailer. I live 20 miles away from a huge Amazon facility. Why criticise them for their efforts? They are at least try to generate real money and by implication real REVENUE for their affiliates.. the same REVENUE that scumware merchants take away.

    Well, Seven/Nancy I'm right in the middle of a site overhaul and I can tell you you've inspired me to put a link to AdAware on every page.

    Oh yes, Nancy, enjoy your ill-gotten gains before you end up at the losing end of a class action.

  22. #22
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    Actually Nancy and Steven, what you are saying has been said before.

    quote:
    The end justifies the means.
    -- Joseph Stalin


    His little enterprise seemed to be going well in the beginning but as all immoral practices, people of good character got sick of it. Not the best of analogies, since we are all capitalists, but the point is made.

    Historically, those who help the greater good succeed and those who do not, don't.

    To the average web surfer, parasiteware is hijacking and will end up in

    quote:
    ... the unmarked grave of lies...

    [paraphrase]


    [edited to say]

    Now feel free to take the blue pill, wake up in your bed, and believe... whatever you want to believe.

    [ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: Planetwide Exodus ]

  23. #23
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    Well I think Nancy has a good point. So good in fact that I think she may just possibly be an employee or owner of one of the Parasiteware(TM) companies.

    Well she can assume we are kids trying to earn beer money so I can assume what I want too.

    The good point she made and Haiko had also mentioned is, like it or not these parasites are going to replace us. Unless we get real and legal action to help our cause, we will just keep on fighting a loosing battle. It seems like there is a new parasite breeding every week. In fact I can't even name them all anymore.


    With all of this going on and unlikely to stop, what are we going to do about it? It doesn't seem like anything major is going on legally and our efforts to educate the public is almost useless as most will not even have a clue what we are talking about much less give a rats ass.

    Oh and before I'm done babbling.

    Nancy,

    Although I can't stand that little magot Marilyn Manson, I have to say you are wrong regarding Alice Cooper making him look like Marilyn Monroe.

    As an Alice Cooper fan I enjoy his trueness/fakeness just as I do Ozzy Osborne and others, but none of my musical hereos would dare go where Marilyn Manson has gone and for good reasons that aren't proper to talk about in public.

    :eek:

  24. #24
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    >Well I think Nancy has a good point. So good in fact that I think she may just possibly be an employee or owner of one of the Parasiteware(TM) companies.

    Heyder - ya think?? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    And if he's female, it'll owe more to some Brazillian surgeon's scissors than any chromosomes.

    He could have saved his pennies. I expect there were enough volunteers here willing to do it for free.

    If you wanna know how I know this is a man...

    I've only seen that kind of patronising You Kids attitude from those who were in their late twenties/thirties during the seventies - and in this their authoritarian tone harks back to the fifties. Its the attitude of his parents (he's very conventional) grafted onto a dog-eat-dog corporate darwinism (which he thinks makes him slightly more more 'on the ball' than his bewildered parents).

    And I've only seen this from men trying to establish their dominance over younger males. This is a male and he thinks we are males too. Even a man like him wouldn't be so rude if he believed half of us were female.

    This is certainly an ex-corporate drone and femaleness is unlikely for the time period and demographic we're talking about. He's into scumware now because the very 'marketing skills' he went on a thousand courses to learn are about to become expensively defunct.

    He's well aware that he could have spent the last 30 years with a giant spliff in one hand and a guitar in the other, had much more fun and much the same financial result. We are a living, breathing, *flourishing* reminder of a wasted life spent brown-nosing corporate arse.

    I should say he came late to the internet - and with an attitude of 'this is something I must do or I'll lose everything' - not 'ooh look this is fun'. This is why he doesn't realise around a third of us are older than he is and also why he's trying the fear close. The internet is something his paymasters are very afraid of, and presumably why they think theft is the best strategy. They are truly desperate.

    The demographic that leaks through his statements does not equate with that of the established companies willing to leave their futures in the hands of a woman. The kind of scum he works for would think employing a woman a risky strategy.

    But he has a vague notion we are more likely to trust a woman anyway, so he's picked the name of one he knew in the sixties.

    Pathetic.

    And if he doesn't bog off soon I'll tell young Pranav to hide his eyes, while I explain what he likes the lady he pays to kick him to wear.

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    I

    [ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: Icicle ]

  25. #25
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    Oh and to Seven,

    Take a look around you. I bet it's very crowded.

    [ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: Heyder ]

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