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  1. #1
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Owned by of all people ... Niel Durrant, the person who made the first morpheus overwrite video

    http://www.greasypalm.co.uk/register_1.php

    Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli


  2. #2
    pph Expert! Gordon's Avatar
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    is it anything to do with whenu Haiko the sliding bar that comes up at the bottom of the page is very similar to whenu's. As far as I know I have not downloaded this program yet the bar came up for me :-(



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  3. #3
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    G-Man,

    That bar is copied from ebates ... http://www.ebates.com/ (if you see the ballons strip out all to just be http://www.ebates.com/ and you'll see it. That bar is not part of the application only a layered dhtml script.

    Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli


  4. #4
    Affiliate Summit Guy Shawn Collins's Avatar
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    Haiko -

    Have you tested it and seen it to perform affiliate redirects?

    I think Neil deserves the benefit of the doubt - I cannot imagine his software would be doing anything questionable.

    Shawn Collins
    ClubMom, Inc.

    http://www.affiliatemanager.net - tools and resources for affiliate managers

  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I will test it this week ... that is why it is in the suspicious activity forum and not in a greasypalm forum. Notwithstanding that, it would be parasitic because of the merchant's cookie exploitation.

    Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli


  6. #6
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    Hello Haiko,

    Yes, GreasyPalm is my site.

    It's getting a bit late on a Saturday evening here in the UK for a full discussion but I will welcome an open dialog and thought I'd drop you a few notes before I call it a night...

    GreasyPalm is an incentive/rewards site targeting UK consumers.

    The site itself was launched in May. Last week we introduced a reminder software tool for our members.

    Yes, it's a BHO.

    It is not an incarnation of any other BHO's available in the marketplace - it was commissioned with the key specification that it needed the ability to recognise affiliate links.

    The application is *only* available to existing GreasyPalm members - you'll see how the software is offered to new members when you create a user account.

    To help you understand and test...

    The app is designed to pop and redirect but only when an affiliate link is not in place - there is no direct over-writing of affiliate links.

    It will only pop against those merchants working with us and not divert a customer visiting a merchant outside of our existing relatinships.

    In terms of recognising other affiliate links. The app contains an 'ignore' data file. This data file comprises of the domains of all the UK networks, as a BHO the app can read the past navigational history of a browser session and as such take no action when an affiliate link is present. This ignore command remains present for the session including any child windows spawned.

    Over the past couple of weeks a number of UK affiliates have been testing the software and providing their feedback. The ignore functionality works succesfully against direct affiliate links, affiliate links masked by redirect scripts (no need to add any additional parameters to tell it to ignore) and one of my partners who uses a toolbar with his own affiliate links confirmed that again the BHO respected the integrity of those links.

    Haiko, I know the general opinions on BHO's around these parts but I'm happy to help you with any information you need to dig deeper, feel free to email me if you need anything or want to discuss further.

    Regards,

    - Neil

  7. #7
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Basically Haiko the good old guy Niel gleaned enough info out of his detect script, attended enough meetings as a industrial spy in sheeps clothing to contract for his own theftware program. Mapping UK domains for exclusion from the INCENT thievery begs the question ..why just UK domains? OH 90% of destination shopping sites are USA targeted domains.

    I'll put some truth behind Niels spin. You cannot survive with a INCENT ebiz plan without becoming a BHO commission thief, SE and e-mail spammer. How many web surfers will Neil and Club Mom drive to install Ad Blockers and Norton firewalls. I've been here from day one and heard this BHO launch spin by the Ad whores of all flavors seeking ways to stiffle normal competition.

    My take all along is any INCENT affiliate is just a pawn for the Ad industry or an out right traffic hijacking thief. Thow out a coupon/reward piece of bloody chum merchants and watch the sharks eat their young and all around them to feed their tricks for clicks. I'll take the high road any day and enjoy the ethical company along the path of life. Wanks like Niel get a chuckle out of greasing their palms on the work of others.

    This UK version of Paul Nichols even thows in the MLM pitch to encourage an affiliate force of drive-by install terrorists to joinup and reap the benefits.

    This proven strategy enables us to 'monetise' any sites user base.

    Join the GreasyPalm partner program and we will share a percentage of the profits generated by every member you refer to us. Not a one-off bounty but a profit share bringing you repeat commissions month after month for the lifetime of the member you introduce.


    Earn residual commissions on all members repeat sales!!!
    Database record matching ensures every member you refer is tagged for life!!!
    Equitable profit share for our partners!!!

    Profit from loyalty marketing without the associated technical and administrative work

    More like he won't have to work if he gets enough CPC and 10 cnet installs by the spammers and sleezy affiliates attracted to pushing gator -WhenU -Morpheous -KaZZaa -iWon -iGive -CyberRebates -ebates ....on an on AD-nausium

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

    [This message was edited by EcomCity.com on September 21, 2003 at 09:21 AM.]

    [This message was edited by EcomCity.com on September 21, 2003 at 09:22 AM.]

  8. #8
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Neil's logo says it all ...just jerking off the web surfer with a BHO -FREEBEES -Free LOTTO -Surf to Earn -MLM -Coupons ..blah blah blah.

    [Removed logo as requested]

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

    [This message was edited by Haiko on September 21, 2003 at 12:24 PM.]

  9. #9
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    Hello Mike,

    quote:
    Wanks like Niel


    I'm here as I have nothing to hide and welcome an open dialog.

    Although, Mike I do hope you can demonstrate a level of decorum and show some manners rather than resorting to abusive postings.

    Now let me reiterate some points I made initially...

    1. There are no drive by installs.

    2. The app is *only* available for existing members.

    3. The app does not over-write affiliate links.

    quote:
    Mapping UK domains for exclusion from the INCENT thievery begs the question ..why just UK domains? OH 90% of destination shopping sites are USA targeted domains.



    I'm not sure what this comment refers to.

    GreasyPalm is a rewards site catering for the UK market. There's nothing sinister about us bringing a rewards offering to the UK.

    quote:
    even thows in the MLM pitch to encourage an affiliate force of drive-by install terrorists to joinup and reap the benefits


    Did I mention there wasn't any drive by installs?

    MLM is a nice emotional term to use but wholly inaccurate.

    Shall we start again? I'm not here for a slanging match, I will take on board negative feedback and constructive criticism but likewise expect a little common courtesy and ask that perhaps you stop for a moment and consider my viewpoint too.

    - Neil

    BTW, As amusing as your second post is - and I'm sure with a name like GreasyPalm you'll have plenty more ammunition for cheap shots - but I request that you or a moderator remove my logo from the post with immediate effect. Thank you.

  10. #10
    Affiliate Summit Guy Shawn Collins's Avatar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by EcomCity.com:
    How many web surfers will Neil and Club Mom drive to install Ad Blockers and Norton firewalls.


    Mike -

    First, ClubMom is one word.

    Second, it's wreckless to prejudge Neil as guilty when there is no validation that he's done anything wrong.

    Third, where do you get off insinuating that ClubMom has anything to do with "ParasiteWare™"?

    Shawn Collins
    ClubMom, Inc.

    http://www.affiliatemanager.net - tools and resources for affiliate managers

  11. #11
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Hi Neil

    I've posted in greater detail on the UK forum, but the issues I have are

    1. You target customers already on my site, and therefore cause "triple marketing costs"

    2. You over write what you term "older cookies".. Merchants don't just offer a cookie to grab the first sale, some of us actually offer a long cookie to attract long term partners who will get rewarded for their return customers, not just the one shot sale.

    Cheers

    Chris

    Web Studio-1 Solutions.
    http://www.webstudio-1.com


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  12. #12
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Shawn trolled through here months ago seeking our opinion on his sliding a Tame version of a BHO reminder service into ClubMom. Funny he show show up at the same time Neil gets called on the line for the GreasyPalms.com BHO ...betta version 1.0

    My stand on the incenters was well know 4 years ago as the festering ground for all affiliate abusers. I suggested CJ boot all the incenters, phoney lead merchant fronts for the spammers when banning the CPC merchants and affiliates while introducing EPC. Their not listening to the warning now comes back to haunt them this Holloween.

    Anyone seeing the trend folks. Having exhausted the SE coupon/reward spamming, getting consumers and governments up in arms over the spamming frontend info peddlers, the incenters are scurring for private labeled BHO's. I'm sure Neil isn't blind to the fact that one troll post here on a FREEBEE share revenue incent BHO application would, behind the scenes, flood the perps e-mail box by the desperate sleezybag affiliates.

    Earlier today I post this and stand by the challenge...

    Merchants seeking the ethical high road of not being as party to the darkside Ad whores have a simple solution. All get together and immediately boycott the INCENT Ad whores stinking up the place. ALL OF THESE MERCHANTS SHOULD PULL ALL INCENT OFFERINGS THAT FUEL THE AFFILIATE INDUSTRIES ABUSES!!!!

    This actually will in the long run benefit even the Flamingo World type honest hard working affiliate trying to stay afloat in the storm waters of INCENT gorrilla marketing. Merchants then just build the incents into their own loyality shopping e-mail programs or just post them prominently on their sites like Overstock and others do. THIS IS THE ONLY SOLUTION ...tough love!! Force the legit incent affiliates to buildout their sites with product links, DRMS, mini showcases and actually put value into their commission efforts for the merchant. Look at the direction even Niel Durant and Shawn Collins are launching now they have the INCENT game rules ...private labeled BHO's just f*cking over normal affiliate traffic.


    So true SSanF ..."I believe I have erroneously mentioned CJ being "sold", as well. What I should have said was, "since CJ was sold out"! Everyone one of my ecommerce enable clients has steady monthly sales growth and profits. Incents go to all their site visitors or their own private loyality shopping efforts.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  13. #13
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    Chris, I've dropped a reply on the UK forum...we won't agree 100% on this topic but at least you see where I'm coming from!

    Mike, I really am being upfront with this. Their isn't a hidden agenda, before I launched the app I had a number of UK affiliates beta testing the app and it was me who publically declared what I was doing in the UK forums - I haven't been 'caught out' as such

    I'm not sure how interested you are in the other side of the story but let me just illustrate why I wanted a BHO...

    Our core merchandising activity is from our site and newsletter - thats where most of our sales come from. The new software tool (Rebate Catcher) is designed as an extension of our marketing reach, reminding our users (who have pro-actively joined us and opted to install the app) where rebates are available, keeping *my brand* in the frame and handling the problem we have with users claiming rebates that haven't been reported by the retailer.

    The one advantage I have is seeing the behaviour of my members. The active users religiously follow merchants working with us. But I also receive the requests for rebates when affiliate tracking has failed. This failure could be one of two reasons. Either user error (they forgot to login and click through our affiliate links) or occasional tracking errors from the networks - personally I think its a little bit of both. Whatever reason it's a direct cost to me as I have been reimbursing non-tracked rebates to my members ensure they remain satisified members. It's my hope that Rebate Catcher will provide the tool to correct many of these non-tracked issues.

    You know in your post you suggest that incent site owners don't work as hard as other affiliates - let me tell you that is not true.

    We are a small company working as hard as any other affiliates here. Not only do we have the same tasks as everyone else in terms of merchandising offers, site updates etc but we also need to look after our members, handling enquries and accounting. Margins are thin BUT the loyalty model does work. Users return religously to the site and the repeat purchasing of those users make up for the thin margins.

    The consumer wins.

    Does it fit every merchants model? For a minority no.

    But for a great many it does and already we drive a reasonable level of sales volume with or without my members tool in place.

    quote:
    private labeled BHO's just f*cking over normal affiliate traffic.


    As we don't overwrite affiliate links I guess your core issue here comes down to cookies.

    Here's my take on the cookie issue:

    >

    As the app is only available to existing members then it's fair to assume that the member has bought into our value-add offering of cash rebates.

    With this in mind the user has then explicitly requested that they are made aware of those rebate opportunities.

    At this point the consumer made a choice - a decision that ultimately means the consumer benefits as they get a better deal for themselves.

    Now from a commercial point of view we enabled the environment for the consumer to have that choice and added value.

    In doing so we 'bettered' our competition - and let's not be under any false pretense that after all the comaraderie in forums such as this most affiliates are also competing amongst themselves.

    Well chaps - thats my viewpoint. I do know we won't all agree and I'm sure the whole adware issue still has plenty more growing pains to go through...but one last thought...just 'cos it's adware doesn't necassarily mean it has to be bad. It's the implementation not the technology.

    - Neil

  14. #14
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    Mike, incentive is a part of business always has been always will be be, offline and online. So is advertising. Those banners and things you have on your site are advertising for merchants. Advertising and incentives are a part of business. That will never change.

    "Force the legit incent affiliates to buildout their sites with product links, DRMS, mini showcases and actually put value into their commission efforts for the merchant."

    Thats the way you do things, stop trying to conform everybody else into YOUR way of doing things. No incentive and no advertising in business? What country are you in?

    [This message was edited by TrustNo1® on September 21, 2003 at 02:48 PM.]

  15. #15
    Affiliate Summit Guy Shawn Collins's Avatar
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    quote:
    Originally posted by EcomCity.com:
    Shawn trolled through here months ago seeking our opinion on his sliding a Tame version of a BHO reminder service into ClubMom. Funny he show show up at the same time Neil gets called on the line for the GreasyPalms.com BHO ...betta version 1.0


    Mike -

    Yes, I did post on another board back in February to solicit feedback about creating a clean BHO that did not redirect links or do anything else unfair.

    I never did find a solution that made me comfortable, and did not pursue the issue further.

    In August, I posted in a a thread about toolbars to inquire about feelings towards a toolbar that would make it impossible for an affiliate link to be redirected.

    Nothing has moved forward on this front, either.

    By the way, I login to ABW almost every day to read posts, and I post from time to time.

    quote:
    Originally posted by EcomCity.com:
    Merchants seeking the ethical high road of not being as party to the darkside Ad whores have a simple solution. All get together and immediately boycott the INCENT Ad whores stinking up the place. ALL OF THESE MERCHANTS SHOULD PULL ALL INCENT OFFERINGS THAT FUEL THE AFFILIATE INDUSTRIES ABUSES!!!!


    Please explain how any and all incent site is so sinister.

    quote:
    Originally posted by EcomCity.com:
    Look at the direction even Niel Durant and Shawn Collins are launching now they have the INCENT game rules ...private labeled BHO's just f*cking over normal affiliate traffic.


    You seem to fancy playing the game telephone with yourself.

    You take a small bit of information (Shawn was asking about the propect of creating a clean BHO 7 months ago) and twist it into my being on the verge of launching something.

    This is simply untrue.

    Please get your facts straight in the future. I'm always available by AIM (affiliate ninja), PM (here), phone (646-435-6513), e-mail (scollins@clubmom.com), etc. if you would like to clear anything up.

    Shawn Collins
    ClubMom, Inc.

    http://www.affiliatemanager.net - tools and resources for affiliate managers

  16. #16
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Well I stand by what I placed here as the ONLY SOLUTION to partnering long term with any merchant. Good merchants and AM's will follow my advice and demand some value-add beyond throwing out some coupons/rewards and double commissions fueling those BHO incent engines. If they as a group don't decide to cut out all incents, beyond sales contests, going out to affiliates this Holiday shopping season then Neils memorized canned speach ( We all heard it verbatium many times) will be used by hundreds more incnet BHO's on training wheels. Speach comes with free trail of Afftrac. Got to plug my Buddy Wayne.

    Protect your brand -trademarks -SE listings and long term business by BOYCOTTING incent offerings this Holiday season. It is the only fuel the darkside runs on and the only weapon the networks give them to automate their thievery. Go one better and raise commissions to all by 1% to give back the profits you lose to the incenters. Watch those mini-showcases -individual product and category value -add links go up from those destined to be buried by the BHO incents.

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  17. #17
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    Mike, come back to reality. Parasites bad, incentives are not. Incentives: coupons, rebates, sales, % off deals, free shipping deals, clearance sales have been around since the dawn of business, offline and online. Parasite free merchants have coupons and promotions. Mondera, Essestial Apparel have coupons and are parasite free, are they bad? Part of the problem is you don't even know what the problem is anymore.

  18. #18
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Trustno1 become part of the solution ...not the problem. If you have another idea after 2000 post that would put an end to this Ad Whore madness then I'm all ears....room goes silent!

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  19. #19
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    First before you try to do anything you need to be real. Incentives aren't going anywhere no matter how much you want them to Mike. Yes there is a solution from having your traffic being popped off of:

    http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...824#9436087824

    That's what i've been doing, none of the traffic i send to merchants is popped on. Parasites are a problem and should be dealt with but there are thing you CAN do.

    Haiko:
    "What I've seen with SaHS and all topMoxie applications is that if the affiliate link is framed they do not pop nor overwrite."

  20. #20
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    I have to agree with Mike on this one.

    Unfortunately, affiliate marketing is being redefined in an ugly manner by these hos.

    Before, its purpose was to drive sales and customers to merchants.

    Nowadays it is more about 1) setting cookies by any means to extract commissions without a referral (preferably by monetizing search engine referrals, but with the side effect of hijacking real affiliate referrals) and 2) using these techniques to help AMs reach sales goals, bonuses, move up the ladder, and extracting cash from stockholders by any means.

    And who cares how much work is involved in developing the apps? They have a negative net value to your merchant 'partners' no matter how you spin the statistics.

  21. #21
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    Mike said:

    quote:
    Neils memorized canned speach ( We all heard it verbatium many times) will be used by hundreds more incnet BHO's on training wheels. Speach comes with free trail of Afftrac. Got to plug my Buddy Wayne.



    LOL, if Wayne had prep'ed a speech for me it would be far more eloquent.


    quote:
    It is the only fuel the darkside runs on and the only weapon the networks give them to automate their thievery


    Again you keep talking about thievery.

    Now I'm probably one of the first operating a BHO to come to this forum to openly discuss my view. However, you steamroll over the facts and go back to auto-pilot.

    The funny thing is I'm not even on the radar.

    Wanna take a guess at how many members tools I have installed since the soft launch?

    Under 300.

    My prediction for next 12 months based on current install rate of 1 in 5 members (again a demonstration that I'm happy to be open by sharing my metrics)...under 20k.

    Again all members opted-in to my service with explicit permission and can uninstall just as easily.

    While you persist on banging the thievery drum I will state again I cannot yet see a point in your argument that should make me re-assess what I'm doing:

    No affiliate links overwritten.
    No drive-by installs.
    Explicit user permission for install.
    Merchants free to opt-out of working with us or revise terms.
    On cookies, we enabled the environment for the consumer to have that choice and added value and as such from a mercenary point of view quite frankly earned the sale.


    quote:
    BOYCOTTING incent offerings this Holiday season


    Some of our best merchants use incents themselves. Credit cards giving their own cash back. Book clubs with subsidised front end purcases.

    For many merchants incentives are just smart marketing.

    The only case whereby the merchant ought to consider their relationship with us is if they are paying a premium bounty factoring in lifetime value. (Few merchants do - in fact most of the UK cpa rates are lower than in the US?). In this case we are open to discussions with the merchant and will work on an alternative rate provided it is *equitable* for both parties.

  22. #22
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    Your scheme has negative value to the retailers, that is why you keep bringing up the no-drive by and other irrelevant points.

  23. #23
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    I think it's fair to say that the contentious issue is the small percentage of GP members that might have a conflict with another affiliates past cookies.

    The reading of the networks cookies is not possible.

    However, another affiliate has just sent me a very clever solution to what Haiko termed as the cookie exploitation issue.

    In theory it's the ideal solution.

    Although we cant read a networks cookie, we could utilising the data we have to detect if a domain was previously ignored ensure we do not pop again on that domain for the same time period as the affiliate cookie.

    I've said from the outset that I'm not interested in trying to overwrite any past cookies but simply provide a better level of service for our members.

    I think this solution is ideal.

    I have instructed my programmer to investigate this concept immediately and will know by late afternoon if it's technically feasible.

    If it is - it will be done.

    I'll keep you posted.

  24. #24
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Neil you have all the rights in this world to develop a BHO for your loyality club shoppers. You have the right to push FreeBees, coupons, rebates and any other form of pureplay direct incent marketing. Just answer my question. Of the hundreds of BHO's and sites pushing FreeBees how many of them are legit and playing by ABW best practices or just fronts for traffic/cookie hijackers.?

    Mike & Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  25. #25
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    quote:
    we could utilising the data we have to detect if a domain was previously ignored ensure we do not pop again on that domain for the same time period as the affiliate cookie.



    The problem with the whole scheme right from the start is that someone HAS to get ripped off. In the original form it is affiliates and the retailer. In this new one it is the retailer and users.

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